This will be Microsofts biggest ever flop, far bigger than Vista.

[jimbo45]

Hi there
especially @ NightHawk.
the file system actually used on the physical device should really be irrelevant.

Remember when the Linux kernels a few years ago implemented Read and WRITE for NTFS file systems -- this was done via FUSE which essentially allowed ANY file system whatsoever to be implemented in the kernel whatever the nature of the physical medium.

You had to Mount the file system as FUSE - but now it's done automatically -- read write NTFS / FAT no problem.

(Of course the Host computer had to have some mechanism of doing physical reads and writes to the device - but to the external user the file system could be arranged any which way it was desired -- even if the actual hardware wrote NTFS or FAT).

Read up on these -- light bedtime reading for you. !!!!

Develop your own filesystem with FUSE

Filesystem in Userspace - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Cheers
jimbo

 

[Fredledingue]

Kari, The Start Screen is a nice little app launcher with some cool features I'm sure (it even connects you to an App Store -what's not to like, heh?). If you feel like using it, that's fine.

The Start GUI is, according to me and many others, one of the best things the Redmond geeks have produced.

But, again, why forcing everybody to use it? Even those who don't need/ dont' want/ don't like it? Please explain.

Who wants a desktop/tower PC with a cellphone monitor screen?

It's a fact (way to speak -LOL-) that W8 was designed for advanced cellphones and tablets with touch screen capability. In the opinion of many, it doesn't work on a desktop PC and even on a laptop with the same use and function. It doesn't mean however that nobody will like it. Me and other poeple have written lenghty posts to explain why W8 Mobile doesn't fit on a PC. It's not in my habit to repeat things over and over. But if you look at older posts you will see that my opinion is more nuanced than that.

The non sens at Redmond is stunning.

Yes it is. And I also wrote many posts here to explain why. Not about Metro itself, but the realy stupid and stubborn attitude of Microsoft for not letting The Start Screen being an option chosen by the user. Not letting the choice to start directly to the desktop is bound to cause many problems with many users. Eventualy those problems can be solved by third party softwares already available. Also many poeple asked for the return of the classic Start Menu, in vain. Why is Microsoft tone deaf when users are speaking? They could change 3 lines of code and make the day. Instead they silently tell poeple to find hacks on the internet. And the anti-Metro/8 bashing continues. It seems they like it.

However, my main point was this phenomena I really hate, stating your own subjective thoughts and opinions as absolute facts.

I never stated my opinion as facts. Since they were written on a free and open forum (where all views are expressed) there are ipso facto opinions and must be understood as such.

You know what I mean, this "This is my opinion so it must be a fact".

I could write the exact same things in the opposite sens: "How the few ones who likes W8's Start Screen can talk on behalf of every user who happen not to like it? The arrogance..." or "This thread is full with posts like this one". Works both ways. But it's not useful as a discussion.

The life of Metro on desktop PCs will be counted in weeks. Everybody will be laughing their lungs out.

This idiotic statement, like others like it, does not even deserve a response.

So why do you quote it? It was already an answer to prior posts, to be taken into context. Please follow the discussion.

 

[Night Hawk]

Hi there
especially @ NightHawk.
the file system actually used on the physical device should really be irrelevant.

Remember when the Linux kernels a few years ago implemented Read and WRITE for NTFS file systems -- this was done via FUSE which essentially allowed ANY file system whatsoever to be implemented in the kernel whatever the nature of the physical medium.

You had to Mount the file system as FUSE - but now it's done automatically -- read write NTFS / FAT no problem.

(Of course the Host computer had to have some mechanism of doing physical reads and writes to the device - but to the external user the file system could be arranged any which way it was desired -- even if the actual hardware wrote NTFS or FAT).

Read up on these -- light bedtime reading for you. !!!!

Develop your own filesystem with FUSE

Filesystem in Userspace - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Cheers
jimbo

I heard about FUSE some time ago. But that still remains an open source community development tool when compared to the existing platforms the OSs have been using through the years. FUSE deals mostly with virtual platforms on the other hand.

The one thing you will find there with FUSE however is what seems to be lacking with 8. "Innovation" as far as being flexible and not simply something MS is trying to ram down everyone's throats in that sense. You can work on your own designs as far as an OS platform independent of the established standards seen for each OS. You might even development a new Linux flavor!

 

[phailyoor]

It's a fact (way to speak -LOL-) that W8 was designed for advanced cellphones and tablets with touch screen capability. In the opinion of many, it doesn't work on a desktop PC and even on a laptop with the same use and function. It doesn't mean however that nobody will like it. Me and other poeple have written lenghty posts to explain why W8 Mobile doesn't fit on a PC. It's not in my habit to repeat things over and over. But if you look at older posts you will see that my opinion is more nuanced than that.

Very very true. It is a fact, and all the deniers should really take a close look at the start screen and note what they see. It's also a fact that the new start screen does MOST, but not all of what the old start menu did, meaning that many users, including me will be totally happy with it. That means that it's also a fact that there are some users who get totally shafted by the change. Bad move MS. What happened to "no compromises"

 

[Night Hawk]

No options would be the operative word. Despite many labeling Vista a flop the transition from the old XP and previous Classic look to Aero saw two options for appearance. With 8 you have a totally new touchscreen gui replacing the Start orb, Start and Programs menu to look at a full screen of buttons!

With the Start menu you could easily go back and forth to open the next thing up with ease while now you need to hover in one corner to keep bringing up the Start screen unless having something pinned to the task bar, have a Quick Lauch addon tool bar coming from the main task bar, or a 3rd party app like RocketDock or CircleDock.

Someone commented on the one fits all thinking MS has for 8 which for most simply isn't working. For those that seem to like it novice or other they generally don't do much but check the mail and yap on a social network where the gui changes simply don't mean anything to them. For the workstation of the advanced user the changes are in need of 3rd party workarounds like the Start menu replacement apps by 3rd party sources which now is seeing OEMs getting into the act for their new fall line-up of 8 machines.

As I have said before at times the core improvements for hardware detection and setup as well as MS renaming the Security Essentials as the new Windows Defender to provide a built-in av program are being outweighed by the negative reactions to the major gui change. MS lacked the foresight of seeing a second option for the conventional standard desktop showing their push into the mobile competition as well as bringing in a touchscreen interface comes at a cost.

 

[R0bR]

For those that seem to like it novice or other they generally don't do much but check the mail and yap on a social network where the gui changes simply don't mean anything to them. For the workstation of the advanced user the changes are in need of 3rd party workarounds like the Start menu replacement apps by 3rd party sources which now is seeing OEMs getting into the act for their new fall line-up of 8 machines.

Yes of course, if one likes and does not struggle with Windows 8 they MUST only "check the mail and yap on social network".
Advanced users have been using 3rd party apps to get Windows to do what they want for ages but now it's an issue? If Windows 8 is such a road block then perhaps certain advanced users aren't as "advanced" as they think they are.

 

[HippsieGypsie]

Yes of course, if one likes and does not struggle with Windows 8 they MUST only "check the mail and yap on social network".
Advanced users have been using 3rd party apps to get Windows to do what they want for ages but now it's an issue? If Windows 8 is such a road block then perhaps certain advanced users aren't as "advanced" as they think they are.

:thumb: Right on, Bro!

 

[Dave76]

Yes of course, if one likes and does not struggle with Windows 8 they MUST only "check the mail and yap on social network".
Advanced users have been using 3rd party apps to get Windows to do what they want for ages but now it's an issue? If Windows 8 is such a road block then perhaps certain advanced users aren't as "advanced" as they think they are.

Well put, I have to agree with this.

We do have to remember that they are making a OS for about a billion people.
With every new OS they make changes, some don't like them and some do.
If they don't make enough changes then some say it's just a SP to the previous version.
When there aren't enough options to make the changes each individual would like to see then we can usually find third party apps to fill in the gaps.
It's either 'bloated' or not customizable enough.

 

[pparks1]

We do have to remember that they are making a OS for about a billion people.

That's right and what it really boils down to is how well it's accepted in the marketplace. Just because I may or may not like something, won't make the product a success or failure. However, first impressions really have an impact (as we found out with Vista). The tech pundits have criticized, the power users are skeptical and the enthusiasts are split.

I'm genuinely interested to see how this is received by the masses. Many seem to love their smartphones and tablets, and they seem to want to upgrade them frequently and get new things...so this Windows 8 system might be very appealing to them. For those more like me, who have a tablet, but only touch it for the lightest of tasks and set it down in favor or our laptop whenever we have to really type something out....it might get an overall thumbs down.

In just a few short months, we are going to know the answer.

 

[PaulGo]

I guess I am just old fashioned. I always though the seller is supposed to meet the needs of the customer, not the customer having to jump through hoops to accommodate the seller. The only reason Microsoft is shoving the Metro interface to desktop users is because they are so far behind in smartphone and tablet sales. Even Apple who is the most successful table an smartphone company realizes a one size fits all approach does not work for desktop computers.

 

[HippsieGypsie]

We do have to remember that they are making a OS for about a billion people.

That's right and what it really boils down to is how well it's accepted in the marketplace. Just because I may or may not like something, won't make the product a success or failure. However, first impressions really have an impact (as we found out with Vista). The tech pundits have criticized, the power users are skeptical and the enthusiasts are split.

I like your attitude, Parks. Even though you don't agree with MS on 8, you don't wish them ill like I read some critics do. As you know, I laid my outlook and feelings on it hear: http://www.eightforums.com/windows-...w-would-you-change-improve-windows-8-a-3.html.

I think 8 will not be the biggest seller, for it looks as though it's targeted for the general public market. I can see why it didn't make a good 1st impression on you Pros and most PUs. On the other hand, the general public doesn't usually read tech forums, mags, or their articles. I'm not going to say that the people are stupid, for I've really never met a stupid human. It's just that some are more intelligent than others. Let's just say they are ignorant to know any different, for they are not as savvy as others.

I'm genuinely interested to see how this is received by the masses. Many seem to love their smartphones and tablets, and they seem to want to upgrade them frequently and get new things...so this Windows 8 system might be very appealing to them. For those more like me, who have a tablet, but only touch it for the lightest of tasks and set it down in favor or our laptop whenever we have to really type something out....it might get an overall thumbs down.

In just a few short months, we are going to know the answer

Let's hope for MS's sake it does sell a lot of units, for the scale has tipped lately. iMe Fruit Co. has surpassed them income wise. Yes, the clock keeps ticking. It's not going to be long. Let's hope a lot get a MS product under their Christmas tree.

 

[rich4421972]

I guess I am just old fashioned. I always though the seller is supposed to meet the needs of the customer, not the customer having to jump through hoops to accommodate the seller.

What makes you think MS is forcing you to use this? Ever heard of OS X? Hackintosh? linux? OS/2 and its derivatives? What hoops are you being forced to jump through?

We won't even know until average users are allowed to try this thing out and form their own opinions (independent of the hobbyists and people who already decided that they dislike it, before it is even generally available).

 

[phailyoor]

I guess I am just old fashioned. I always though the seller is supposed to meet the needs of the customer, not the customer having to jump through hoops to accommodate the seller.

What makes you think MS is forcing you to use this? Ever heard of OS X? Hackintosh? linux? OS/2 and its derivatives? What hoops are you being forced to jump through? We won't even know until average users are allowed to try this thing out and form their own opinions (independent of the hobbyists and people who already decided that they dislike it, before it is even generally available).

Want a new computer after october? Then it's forced onto you.

 

[HippsieGypsie]

I guess I am just old fashioned. I always though the seller is supposed to meet the needs of the customer, not the customer having to jump through hoops to accommodate the seller. The only reason Microsoft is shoving the Metro interface to desktop users is because they are so far behind in smartphone and tablet sales. Even Apple who is the most successful table an smartphone company realizes a one size fits all approach does not work for desktop computers.

I'm old fashion also in some ways. Like manners and respect for other people of which seems to be diminishing with each generation. Not to say I'm perfect at it. But, when it comes to tech, whether it be building products or technics in my field, or computing, I had better keep up, or I lose.

Please give MS some time. It's a transitional period in computing of which the smart phone companies with their OSs, iMe Fruit Company, and others started with the backing of a general public market purchasing it called -> “touch”. If anyone has the innovation to combine all three devices, MS does. I think the Fruit Company doesn't, otherwise they'd be selling more Macs.

 

[PaulGo]

I guess I am just old fashioned. I always though the seller is supposed to meet the needs of the customer, not the customer having to jump through hoops to accommodate the seller. The only reason Microsoft is shoving the Metro interface to desktop users is because they are so far behind in smartphone and tablet sales. Even Apple who is the most successful table an smartphone company realizes a one size fits all approach does not work for desktop computers.

I'm old fashion also in some ways. Like manners and respect for other people of which seems to be diminishing with each generation. Not to say I'm perfect at it. But, when it comes to tech, whether it be building products or technics in my field, or computing, I had better keep up, or I lose.

Please give MS some time. It's a transitional period in computing of which the smart phone companies with their OSs, iMe Fruit Company, and others started with the backing of a general public market purchasing it called -> “touch”. If anyone has the innovation to combine all three devices, MS does. I think the Fruit Company doesn't, otherwise they'd be selling more Macs.

They have all the time in the world to hopefully get it right. I have tried Windows 8 for the past several months on a virtual machine and I just don't like it. If they would have added the conventional start menus as an option giving people a choice as to whether they wanted the Metro start menu I would have considered purchasing it. I just don't feel an interface designed for a touch screen is the way to go on a desktop.

 

[SIW2]

Hi Paul,

The answer is to keep asking for what you want.

IF enough people do that - MS will respond.

If they all just give in and put up with it - then they won't.

It is possible if they meet enough resistance, MS may split it - have a pure consumption o/s for phones and tablets.

A different o/s aimed at creativity and productivity for those who want it. They are almost certain to include some way of selling their apps. and online services with it.

 

[HippsieGypsie]

I'll quote a few paragraphs from another post of mine found here: http://www.eightforums.com/windows-...w-would-you-change-improve-windows-8-a-3.html

I believe MS knows very well about your desire of choice of UI, but they can’t allow that. I think they want to introduce 8 and teach the general public on how to use it. If they left a choice for the general public, most would probably remain to do things the old way, therefore no progression. Call it “forcing” or anything you will, but it can’t and won’t be there from a business point of view. Is it morally or ethically correct for them to excercise this? I'm not qualified to answer that.

They kept the desktop for all to use legacy software during this transition of change. I hear every one of you Pros and PUs. It surely sounds like this doesn’t pacify your needs and rightfully so. Perhaps MS knows this. I’m quite sure they have you in mind. 7 will be around for quite some time and probably a 9 will suffice your needs.

 

[rich4421972]

Start Screen.Why do I now have to scroll sideways for about 3 miles in order to find the programme or app I don't happen to have pinned to my desktop? That is fine for a tablet or mobile but nonsensical for a desktop. WHERE IS THE START BUTTON on the desktop? Oh yes, someone at MS thought it would a great step forward to remove it. Cretins.

You can modify which programs display on the start screen, move them around and group similar programs together just by clicking and dragging. If you want the "old" start button, download Windows Classic Shell and you can have a Windows 98-style menu.

 

[Night Hawk]

I guess I am just old fashioned. I always though the seller is supposed to meet the needs of the customer, not the customer having to jump through hoops to accommodate the seller. The only reason Microsoft is shoving the Metro interface to desktop users is because they are so far behind in smartphone and tablet sales. Even Apple who is the most successful table an smartphone company realizes a one size fits all approach does not work for desktop computers.

If you started off with an old Legacy version of Windows and came up through all the changes seen with each new version and then run smack into the "Modern" as it seems it will be named your first reaction will naturally be "What is this crap? Which OS is this supposed to be?"!

As someone else commented some time back even before the RP was out it's how MS is implementing the major gui change that is at odds with the majority of older users regardless of experience levels. Hoop jumping seems to be aa new MS requirement apparently!

Start Screen.Why do I now have to scroll sideways for about 3 miles in order to find the programme or app I don't happen to have pinned to my desktop? That is fine for a tablet or mobile but nonsensical for a desktop. WHERE IS THE START BUTTON on the desktop? Oh yes, someone at MS thought it would a great step forward to remove it. Cretins.

You can modify which programs display on the start screen, move them around and group similar programs together just by clicking and dragging. If you want the "old" start button, download Windows Classic Shell and you can have a Windows 98-style menu.

Why do I scroll downward the length of an addon Quick Launch bar coming off of the main task bar in 7? And that doesn't see all the shortcut you would generally find in a Start>Programs item when set for folder view. The problem with the Start screen is it will automatically place all the extra shortcuts as button for each program regardless if you only want the main exe for example displayed.

The Start screen allows for grouping things in catagories as one of the few options. The annoyance of the trial buttons that are twice as large as the one you pin or an installer pins there is simply to remove them as obstacles and of course free up more screen space. Here's a look at the CP Start screen I had set up with a good number of programs to see a screen fill fast without the apps included.



The screen didn't see any new catagory groups made but still looked quite a bit different without all the preloaded trial buttons. Now take a look at how things display when adding Classic Shell into the works rather then conducting a "search and destroy" mission to find Control Panel items as one example.

First a fast look at the 3rd party flavor of Start, Start button, Shutdown included.



Now look at the same when going to find something.



Just like the IE Favoruites or bookmarks in FireFox the menu expands outward to reveal all hidden from view items. The Start screen however sees only one screen or menu with everything in one place being the thought there for improving easer of access. The problem however is the need to keep bringing up a full screen menu rather then a menu reduced in size to poen up the next item when wanting a second IE or FF window open or going to start something else.

Most simply want to see the desktop come up automatically without any need to click the desktop button just to get there! That's the fist big annoyance. At times however after 8 had been restarted and shutdown several times both the CP and RP suddenly started arriving at the desktop instead suggesting a certain count was reached with the beta and RC builds as they would have been called previously.

The second main gripe is the lack of... a variety of options for customizing. Eveyone complains about the drab look while the same was said about the 7 beta wallpaper! So you have the initial look always being a large turnoff and people wanting to customize Windows as a result. Vista was the same when first seeing the Aero or Classic options but that saw "options" where 8 is apparently lacking to a degree.

 

[Night Hawk]

Windows itself regardless of which version it is boils down to being an interface application loaded into memory! In general it supports what is written for the OS platform whether 32bit or 64bit.

For most the idea of going in and making all kinds of registry edits even with advanced users they wouldn't unless following instructions for a proven method. Just going in at random to twist this and upturn that is far from a smart move unless you are prepared to either roll things back or toss another clean install of Windows on.

The Start screen isn't a desktop to begin with but incorporated into the shell. The desktop is what you see when clicking on the desktop button. The Start screen itself is a customizable splash screen in nature. If you were to bring up the audio console for a sound card you would see the various options for that while lacking the ability to add or subject items but being similar in form.