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How Microsoft can salvage Windows 8 before it's too late


legacy7955

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R0bR, I seriously doubt that. I myself use the start menu, I hate a desktop, and taskbar polluted with icons, It's just messy, and as the saying goes, a messy desktop makes a messy mind.
Same here.


I constantly use start search and menu during the day. I also dislike a "cluttered" desktop or screen filled with short cuts.
Even my task bar is pretty clean.

I also fall into the catagory of people that unfortunately don't tend to give feedback often and sometimes get flustered when asked about my opinion, as if anyone cares. Well considering MS attitude of " Go Metro or Go Linux Mint" , I figured I will go with Mint. Why should I have to fight with a company to provide options I'd like (that can EASILY be made available) when I can just Go...with Linux Mint. The best thing is it is FREE!

MS You are going to LOSE a LOT of your best customers, who also were often times your best sales people, offering positive comments about XP, 7, and even Vista after you sorted it fully, which helped to make a few more sales for you. Multiply those referrals by millions and you received a LOT of additional business due to our recommendations (say over OSX)


Alas now MS has decided to go over to the "dark side" and follow the obnoxious lead of Apple.

We can only hope that when the RTM version appears that sanity has returned to MS and they WILL allow the customer the OPTION to select a default configuration of Boot To Desktop for those of us that have stuck with MS all these years through the good and the bad.
 

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Mustang

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Approx. 90% of the worlds PC population runs Windows, even if only 5% of those users leave the default setting for Customer Experience Program checked it's a large enough sample size to make any statistical feedback Microsoft receives valid. However I'm sure the percentage is much higher than that.
It's not the size of the sample. It's where the sampling is taken from.

By default Customer Improvement Experience program is set to "no". Only persons positively wanting to send feedback would use it, which auto biases your sampling.

This means huge blocks of users such as office workers, power users, etc, would never answer. To be valid the 5% would have to include a proportionately equal amount of users from each group making up the 100%. For example, if:

Power users = 15%
Home users= 20%
Business personnel = 15%
Educational institutes =15%
Geeks = 15%
IT personnel = 10%
Defence Forces and Miscellaneous = 10%

Total = 100%

To make your results valid, your 5% sample would need to be made up of 15% of power users, 20% home users, etc. And they would ALL need to answer the question: "Do you use start menu or not?"

And that is clearly not happening. Why would office workers for example want to do that? It doesn't directly concern them. All they care about is the fact that they've got a start menu. Take it away from them, and then you'll hear from. Which is what will happen when Win8 gets into business ... if it ever does!
 
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R0bR

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And they would ALL need to answer the question: "Do you use start menu or not?"
Obviously you don't know how the Customer Experience Program works, if you accept to be part of it that's the last you'll see of it because everything happens behind the scenes. You're not asked questions, Windows automatically sends Microsoft information on how you're using the software. So yes, if you accept to partake you are indirectly answering how you use the start menu by your mouse clicks.
 

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SIW2

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That is exactly the point he is making.

They don't ask - they go on telemetry.

Example 1:

Let us assume for this example that most sentences contain 30- 40 characters. Usually there is only one Capital letter.

If you rely on Telemetry alone - you might conclude Capitals are only used two or three per cent of the time.

It is pointless having them - hardly any use of them - let's get rid of them.

Example 2:

WDP is released.

Let us assume:

Telemetry indicates most users look at Metro for a short while. Then they use the registry hack to boot to desktop and never go near Metro after that.

The response might be panic. Ripping out of code to force users repeatedly back to the start screen.

There was no attempt to find out what the telemetry actually meant. No attempt to find out why the users were doing that. Most importantly , no attempt to find out how the users feel about that aspect of the product.

No attempt to repond to the users wants and needs.
 

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rich4421972

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That is exactly the point he is making.

They don't ask - they go on telemetry.
The implication being, of course, that Microsoft and everything they do is evil. This is a pyrrhic argument, 5% of which is based on the idea that you are calling "telemetry" and 95% based in Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt regarding an Orwellian concept of how the business world operates.

It's a little like acting like spoiled little children who, after receiving a toy or plaything for free now insist that they are being abused because they have not been granted the expensive wonderful toy that they "really wanted."

Isn't Windows a product and is this not a free market economy? Nobody is forcing anybody to do anything and I'm fairly certain that no coders are ripping apart major portions of the OS based on this evil machination of "cookie and bug" recording.

By painting MS as an evil big brother bent on our destruction, I think we are missing a golden opportunity to participate in the creation of a system (that you correctly say is the only option). Anger and FUD hurts us, the users, not Microsoft the service provider. Ultimately, such inactive bleating will leave us as relevant as OS/2 and CP/M DOS (not that I don't greatly admire those two OS's and their coding standards).

All of my copies of OS/2 are neatly stacked in a closet, preserved until such a time when IBM allows the code to be open sourced to the OS/2 community. Guess what? I'll be waiting for this forever and I'll be a sentimental about my OS/2 graveyard. I don't even want to talk of the virtues of CP/M and how it was cruelly supplanted by the evil Windows 95.

I think it would be nicer if we could reframe this argument in a way that says:

"If MS does ABC or releases a product with PQR features and an XYZ development Kit, I will do something I am capable of doing. Life will go on. I will be productive, earn money and do what I like to do!"
 

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SIW2

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Evil?

LOL somebody has been watching star wars again.

Anger? Bleating?

A little fanciful to put it mildly.

It is fascinating to watch.

I don't know how it will turn out - there are so many factors - many of them not in MS control.

Fun to watch a large monoploy trying something risky.

Surprising they are breaking the rules and making it harder for themselves.
 

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SIW2

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Might surprise you to know that yesterday I was hired to work on a campaign for one of the biggest names in coffee.

It is one of the things I do.

It interests me.
 

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rich4421972

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Evil?

I don't know how it will turn out - there are so many factors - many of them not in MS control.

Fun to watch a large monoploy trying something risky.

Surprising they are breaking the rules and making it harder for themselves.
Thou sayest.

I'm saying that sentimental arguments are not helping to move things forward. When you create broad generalizations like "the Monopoly," or "something risky" you are indicating an unwillingness to think. Your false condescension is meant to be humorous but it indicates your need for a sheepish following.

Microsoft has never HAD a monopoly. What happened with Vista N in the greatest UNIX market on Earth (EU)? It was a disaster but it proved that MS had no monopoly in Europe. What are the "Rules" you speak of?

Microsoft does have the largest market share (5% for Vista, 39 for XP and 51% for 7)and they will keep it until someone stops complaining and builds something better (i.e. OS X, AROS, IRIX, HP/UX or some other system). Then, that party will be your "Monopoly" and you will pillory them.
 

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SIW2

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Childish posturing?

I am discussing marketing - those who do not understand are not forced to reply.

Seems to me that you are the one getting angry.

Name calling will not be tolerated .
 

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Mustang

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And they would ALL need to answer the question: "Do you use start menu or not?"
Obviously you don't know how the Customer Experience Program works, if you accept to be part of it ...
Exactly! That's the whole point. You have totally ignored what I said. I know how Customer Experience works, but because it's set to "NO" by default, the vast majority of users aren't going to turn it on. So their "mouse click" votes are never registered!

This includes huge blocks of users such as office workers where probably 90% would vote yes, but don't because it's not turned on. So the sample is biased.

I worked in the Bureau of Census and Statistics. Ring them or any dept of stats at any university, and put the facts to them, and they will tell you exactly what I'm telling you. It's a non valid sampling method.

rich4421972 said:
No amount of rhetoric promoting Win8 in forums will change the reality of how the public will react. But if there are enough protests, it might get Microsoft's attention. However, the main protest will come from consumers in the market place, and that will definitely get their attention! And the reaction will not be proactive, but rather by their omission in not using W8 in the business sector and many other sectors.

If you check around other forums you will observe a huge outcry against the dropping of the start menu. IMHO MS can ignore that at their own peril. No company is so big it can afford to ignore the preferences of it's clientelle. What they're doing is almost inviting another player to step up to the mark. And someone like Google have the resources to do just that; and have already tested the water with Android. Plus there are many others hovering around the fringes.

And since comnpetition is the life blood of a market based economy, that wouldn't be such a bad thing, with the main beneficiaries being the consumrer. MS have had it their own way far too long in the lower end of the PC market.

Putting all that aside, we won't really know the final outcome until at least SP1 is released. From a stats point of view I'd wager a bet that the probablility of it being returned is very, very high..
 
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rich4421972

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Childish posturing?

I am discussing marketing - those who do not understand are not forced to reply.

Seems to me that you are the one getting angry.

Name calling will not be tolerated .
Why did you use the word "Monopoly" as though it were a universal concept like "Truth" or "Love" or "Heaven?" Why did you never use the word "marketing," instead using "telemetry," "something risky" and "breaking the rules" to describe what is the standard MO for Microsoft? To me, these are abstract concepts without an explanation of how you define them.

I would like to hear some concrete examples ( I.e. non-metaphysical and non-rhetorical) about how MS could fix this clumsy thing called the Metro start menu. I think it is clunky, too and I don't know how it should be fixed except to get rid of Microsoft Reader, Player and the Metro interface of Internet Explorer 10. I think they should have the option to use a "classic" theme like classic shell that was easy to turn on and off. Right now, Classic shell offers no way to use Metro as long as you are using the Windows 98/2000 style

If I have offended you in any way, I apologize. I have been known to be quite pig-headed and arrogant (but you know this now). If I have done wrong by you, I am sincerely sorry and will extricate myself from this discussion. You are right to call me on the "name-calling."
 

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Mustang

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Why did you use the word "Monopoly" as though it were a universal concept like "Truth" or "Love" or "Heaven?"
No offence intended rich, but when I read your last few posts I thought I was at an English or Philosophy lecture, rather than a technical forum.

It's not the letter of the law that counts, but the intent of the law, which in this case is for the message being conveyed to be understood by the recipient. As I said in a post on another thread, debate uses logic, reason and facts that can be validated. It precludes feelings, preferences and opinions. But open discussion includes all of the above, whether it be jargon, cliches, slang or whatever ... just as long as it gets the concept across!

A bit like someone going into a highly emotional tirade and being in someone's face. And at the end, the other person saying: "Does that mean you don't like me?" Think he got the point! And if you'll pardon the pun, a bit like poor old Julius C when he said: "Et tu Brute?" He got the point literally! :)
 
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Airbot

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Please keep the debating civil people, so the thread doesn't have to be closed.
 

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legacy7955

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Please keep the debating civil people, so the thread doesn't have to be closed.

Airbot:

Please let this debate continue. Of course a little heat will be generated with differing opinions but it seems that Mustang and rich are handling it reasonably well, and of course you don't get the bigger picture unless you have the occasional tempered disagreement during debate.

Mustang, your view reflects mine exactly. Although "technically" MS does not have a complete monopoly on the market they have in reality because the OEMs use Windows as the default OS, and those OEMs are the primary products that consumers purchase to use PCs. Very few of us build our own systems, or use alternative OS like Linux or Ubuntu. I am now very much a fan of
Linux Mint because it seems to be a very viable alternative to Windows 7 and is very secure as well. Of course that fact that they are not forcing metro down my throat or charging me for the use of the OS is a nice extra touch. I wish the OEMs would start looking elsewhere for OS. The protest should be that the major OEMs like HP, Lenovo, and Dell, Acer, should offer Linux Mint as an option on ALL their PCs. I have a feeling if consumers and enterprise get a whiff of Windows 8 they will flock to Linux Mint in droves. Certainly seems the opportune time for them to go elsewhere.
 

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rich4421972

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Please keep the debating civil people, so the thread doesn't have to be closed.

Airbot:

Please let this debate continue. Of course a little heat will be generated with differing opinions but it seems that Mustang and rich are handling it reasonably well, and of course you don't get the bigger picture unless you have the occasional tempered disagreement during debate.

I'm afraid that I brought the tempered element to this discussion and I am sorry.
 

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Mustang

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I'm afraid that I brought the tempered element to this discussion and I am sorry.
I don't wish to sound patronizing rich, but IMHO it takes a lot of character to say what you've just said. And it certainly gets my respect.

Likewise if anything I said was offensive I certainly apologize too. I did not feel any animosity or hard feelings.

Cheers M :D
 

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Vertex

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There are OEMs that used Ubuntu but I'd rather want Linux Mint. I have used Linux Mint 9 as my primary OS for many months and up until now, I have LM 9, LM 12 and LM 13 on live CD's and DVD for LM 13. Its more user friendly for Windows migrants and after more bug fixing, I think its a good OS to go for OEMs which could also save you some because Linuxes are free, no need to pay for licenses. But I guess most average Joe don't even know how to use Linux right now so it still would not be most practical to load Linux on most OEM's unless most of your customers are power users.

I just bought a new Asus netbook and with plenty of space, I am thinking about installing RP on a small partition but I had split decisions now so I would not give it a go. But, what I do hate about OEM's now is that they usually come with a ton of bloatware and a long list of Startup items, people don't really need or care about that only delays the startup.
 

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As it celebrates its 30-year anniversary, Microsoft Hardware announces the launch of several new devices, all finely tuned for use with Windows 8. Four of the devices are Bluetooth-enabled, pocket-sized yet sturdy, and specially designed for use on the go – including with tablets.
In the coming weeks and months, the company will introduce two new Bluetooth-enabled keyboards and mice to the market – the Wedge Touch Mouse, the Wedge Mobile Keyboard, the Sculpt Touch Mouse, and the Sculpt Mobile Keyboard. On October 26, the general availability date of the new Windows 8 operating system, Microsoft will also release updated Windows 8 gestures for the Microsoft Touch Mouse.
Microsoft Hardware Delivers on Windows 8, Good Looks and Mobility at Microsoft News Center
A gesture that Microsoft firmly support Metro UI by equipping Windows 8 RTM with those four new hardware. ;)
WedgeTouchMouseFront.jpg SculptTouchMouse.jpg
 

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R0bR

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I have a feeling if consumers and enterprise get a whiff of Windows 8 they will flock to Linux Mint in droves. Certainly seems the opportune time for them to go elsewhere.
That'll never happen. Linux is still regarded as an enthusiast's OS, consumers will either stay on Window 7 or flock to OSX and most enterprises won't touch Linux at the desktop level. Let's not forget that a majority of enterprises use Microsoft backend infrastructure that even OSX still struggles with, can't imagine the cost of implementing Linux desktops in that environment.
 

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mart4494

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That'll never happen. Linux is still regarded as an enthusiast's OS, consumers will either stay on Window 7 or flock to OSX and most enterprises won't touch Linux at the desktop level. Let's not forget that a majority of enterprises use Microsoft backend infrastructure that even OSX still struggles with, can't imagine the cost of implementing Linux desktops in that environment.
:ditto: Think most folks round here have a look at whatever Linux from time to time, well at least I do and you keep coming up with the 'almost there' feeling. But that's been the case for several years and it's simply not going to happen.

In my case I need to run Adobe software. Sure there are open source options like possibly Gimp - no where up to the polish of Photoshop though and that will only run CS1 or 2 (from memory) under Wine. So there's really no real world benefits.
 

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