Removing Start for Windows 8 was the right thing to do

Like them or loathe them, Metro-style apps are here to stay, so let's stop agonising over the lack of a Start button — here are the very good reasons why it makes sense to get rid of it.

Read more at source:
Removing Start for Windows 8 was the right thing to do | ZDNet



For those that can't live without the Start Menu, see:
http://www.eightforums.com/tutorials/8528-start-menu-restore-windows-8-a.html

 

[Arpan]

So you're saying it's quicker to find a sub-menu item that is not included in your shortcuts or items pinned to task bar ... and it's impossible to include them all ... by leaving the desktop to find it in Metro tiles rather than stay on the desktop and find it in the alpha-numeric start menu?

With Windows 8's powerful search, you can easily get whatever you want in seconds.

Let me make it clear:
Start screen isn't "All programs" of Windows 7 start menu. I'm sure you know what it is to pin apps in the old start menu. I'm sure you are aware that you weren't pinning 47 programs in the Win 7 start menu.
The start screen is designed for pinning apps, folders etc. which you use the most. Not all the programs you have installed. I would never pin more than 40 tiles in the Start screen. At present I have only 15 of my most used apps and folder locations pinned.

All apps in Windows 8 is equivalent to all programs of the old start menu.

Gimme a break! Who wants to look thro whatever number of full screens of tiles rather than a menu that occupies 8% of your desktop?

That's a very personal opinion of yours.

In short, you're saying it's equally or more efficient to leave the desktop completely and return periodically

Yes. Not only me, many others.

than to be able to do everything from the desktop in one integrated smooth flow?

I think that's the reason it was removed. If the start menu was there most traditional users would at times forget that there was also a thing called Start screen in Windows 8.

So why not have both?

Microsoft feels that start screen is as good as (or even better than) the start menu. Therefore, no point in having them both.

• Why was it necessary for MS to remove it?
• What harm was it doing?
• What adavantage was gained by removing it? Except to force the use of Metro. Please explain!
• W8 is a single platform designed for all devices - desktop, smartfone, tablet, etc. So why not include this feature for the desktop mode?

1. It was necessary, in my opinion, to remove it because it helps the user to get used to the new Start Screen.
2. It wasn't really doing any harm, but Microsoft thought it was better not having them both.
3. You have already mentioned the advantage gained. If you don't force Metro, many would never use it, and therefore would never ever realise it's potential.

 

[Mustang]

• Why was it necessary for MS to remove it?
• What harm was it doing?
• What adavantage was gained by removing it? Except to force the use of Metro. Please explain!
• W8 is a single platform designed for all devices - desktop, smartfone, tablet, etc. So why not include this feature for the desktop mode?

1. It was necessary, in my opinion, to remove it because it helps the user to get used to the new Start Screen.
2. It wasn't really doing any harm, but Microsoft thought it was better not having them both.
3. You have already mentioned the advantage gained. If you don't force Metro, many would never use it, and therefore would never ever realise it's potential.

You've missed your vocation Arpan. You should be selling fridges to Eskimos; or sand to Arabs. Nice snow job!

Lets get the words right. It doesn't help the user get used to Metro, it forces the user to use Metro! So consumer preference has nothing to do with it as far as MS is concerned ... it's our way or the highway!

You're damn right it wouldn't be used by the vast majority if the option for legacy start menu was included in W8 out of the box. As to realizing it's potential ... that's your opinion ... it's only potential is for touch devices. With desktop it's a liability.

You asked Colonel Travis to provide facts. As you said of him, you've simply stated personal opinions. How about you providing documented, valid test statistics, where an experienced operator, equally computer literate with both W7 & W8, has undertaken the same taks with mutiple, simulataneous, windows, apps and functions ... and been able to do it simpler and quicker on W8 ... in it's native state. Links please.

I can open anything I want with a mouse, without having to type anything in a search engine, or leave the desktop. And as far as I'm concerned that's the ultimate efficiency. We'll have to agree to disagree, won't we?

 

[Arpan]

You asked Colonel Travis to provide facts. As you said of him, you've simply stated personal opinions. How about you providing documented, valid test statistics, where an experienced operator, equally computer literate with both W7 & W8, has undertaken the same taks with mutiple, simulataneous, windows, apps and functions ... and been able to do it simpler and quicker on W8 ... in it's native state. Links please.

I don't know what you are asking.

Let's say Windows 7 be x
If metro be m,
then, Windows 8=x+m Right?

Windows 7 has desktop, Windows 8 also has desktop. Therefore, you can do everything in 8, that you could do with 7 almost exactly the same way. It is more efficient in the way that W8 uses less resources, hence faster. I'm not sure if you have read (there is a forum thread as well), I would have provided you the link if I were on my PC, forensic tests have proved Windows 8 to be more secure than previous versions of Windows.

I can open anything I want with a mouse, without having to type anything in a search engine, or leave the desktop. And as far as I'm concerned that's the ultimate efficiency. We'll have to agree to disagree, won't we?

It's your personal opinion. I and many others have no problem pressing a few keys.

 

[Mustang]

I don't know what you are asking.

I think you know exactly what I'm asking and are avoiding the issue.

Show me links to validated tests where the same operator, who is equally proficient with Metro & Orb/Start Menu, has performed the same tasks of simultaneous multi apps/functions in W8 ... first using only Metro, and secondly only Orb/Start Menu.

We're not comparing systems or security. This thread is about dropping the Orb/Start Menu. And I'm talking about comparing Metro/Orb Start Menu, when either is used in W8. So please stop trying to cloud the issue.

I and many others have no problem pressing a few keys.

I didn't ask if you had problems with it or not; but which way is more efficient in objective testing. And I asked you to back up your previous statement that Metro was a better way, with links to tests done using Metro versus Orb/Start Menu. You chose to ignore this by stating preferences, not facts.

Until you come up with such facts, I consider it pointless to continue the discussion. My last word is we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[Arpan]

Ok, Mustang. We will stop our discussion here. Because I don't have any article in my knowledge where any tech writer has done those tests. Anybody knows, please post here . I myself can do those tests but I don't have time right now to organise everything with screenshots and all that. Can I ask some other members like Coke Robot or mdmd to post them? Will be thankful to them. mdmd has previously posted things like this at places but I don't remember where exactly they are. I'm on my android, don't think will be accessing internet though pc in the next few days.

 

[Mustang]

Ok, Mustang. We will stop our discussion here. Because I don't have any article in my knowledge where any tech writer has done those tests. Anybody knows, please post here . I myself can do those tests but I don't have time right now to organise everything with screenshots and all that. Can I ask some other members like Coke Robot or mdmd to post them? Will be thankful to them. mdmd has previously posted things like this at places but I don't remember where exactly they are. I'm on my android, don't think will be accessing internet though pc in the next few days.

No problemo. And appreciate your honesty. No hard feelings here. And at least we agree on something ... I've got an Android too. And contrary to a lot of opinions I think it's great. :thumb:

Believe it or not I am actually open minded on the subject. And if it works for others that's fine. I have no problem with that. I just believe it should be a two way street. MS should not have a problem with our preference. And true it is their system to do with as they want. It's still a democracy.

However, it's more about the way MS has gone about it than anything else. It smacks too much of Gestapo/KGB approach: "If you do not agree that the Politburo knows what's best for you; you will be sent to state indoctrination facility for compulsory re-education ... for your own good!"

 

[HippsieGypsie]

I see this thread turned into a "hot potato", just as some others do, especially when it comes to the removal of the Start Orb and Menu versus the Start Screen and the Modern touch UI. No doubt this is the crux issue with 8 versus previous MS OSs. A big giant leap no doubt.

Arpan, Mustang is asking for links to a scientifically performed study of work station productivity tests, of which I'll assume none exists at this point, for 8 is fairly new and has not been officially released. Is it fair to say you know that as well, Mustang? (And others) Perhaps MS has performed studies while creating 8, or at least considered what way is best to navigate. I think this is what it boils down to -> Navigation within an OS.

If so, most posts of this thread is opinions and not based on pure scientific factual results. As humans, we tend to cross over to our emotional state to hammer home our opinion, which tends to cause argument rather than debate. Debating is what forums are based on.

What I truly see on both sides of the controversy is our human compassion to obtain what is best for all. That's what is inspiring to me. Some say this is not the correct direction to go while others say it is. I try my utmost not to judge either side. When one exercises this, one can achieve the "big picture" with all of this. I think I have truly reached this point with 8 via this forum and members.

I truly hear and understand what the Pros (and others) concerns are. This change MS has undertaken is a big risk -> Not the way to go! It'll hinder productivity! In time this may prove to be true.

Unfortunately (or fortunately; depending on view), as most things in life, it is out of our our power as to what actions others take or what others decide what is best. It's obvious that MS decided that the Modern UI navigation with Start Screen was the best for whatever reasons.

As I've stated numerous times before -> I think when it comes to a market viewpoint MS has no choice but to go this route, for this is what the market is demanding. They are mimicking competition because the competition is winning more markets and making more profit. I personally feel they will ultimately do a better job at it.

If and when we bought a touch device, we voted for touch. I own one -> my smart phone. I plan on going with the flow -> touch navigation. I plan on getting a touch screen for my PC. Call it smart or foolish. Call it what you will. I think it's a better way of navigation. I've tested this for myself sitting at my PC on my desk. I have no problem extending my arm, for I work construction and do that (and more) all day long. I'm aware it may be different for those that sit at a PC work station all day long. I will experiment and experience it for myself.

Bottom line -> I cannot change the weather, the world as it is, others' actions or decisions -> All I have is responsibility for my own. Ultimately I am the one that makes me happy or productive, no one else.

I see that Brink wisely added a link in his OP to a tutorial on how to add a Start Menu if one desires one. I know one may think they shouldn't have to, but that's the way it is. At least for now.

 

[Arpan]

No problemo. And appreciate your honesty. No hard feelings here. And at least we agree on something ... I've got an Android too. And contrary to a lot of opinions I think it's great. :thumb:

Thank you, Mustang. I appreciate your honesty too. Yes, when we discuss something, we should try to logically place our viewpoints rather than emotional driven statements. There shouldn't be any personal emotions and hard feelings. I'm glad you own an Android rather than a iOS device (I think I was born to hate Apple, I know I have not many valid reasons for that but it's just that I love to hate Apple ).

It was good conversing with you Mustang

 

[Mustang]

It was good conversing with you Mustang

Thank you. And same back to you. And BTW, I hate iPhone too! I had a bad experience with various issues with one that had static, and they didn't want to know about it. Even after admitting they could hear it, not just in the particular one I returned, but in several others of the same model.

Cheers M

 

[Mustang]

I see that Brink wisely added a link in his OP to a tutorial on how to add a Start Menu if one desires one. I know one may think they shouldn't have to, but that's the way it is. At least for now.

As mentioned in another post I'm using Ex7ForW8 to restore W7 Orb/StartMenu in W8 Enterprise. And I have to say W8 is very clean and crisp.

The beauty of this hack is it leaves Explorer8/Metro intact, and either Explorer7/Orb Start Menu or Explorer8/Metro, can be accessed from the active GUI.

On reboot it will go to the last mode running when shutdown occurred. So you need never see Metro, but it's there if you want it, with one click of your mouse.

Also it imports files form W7 installation disk, so you get the exact same set up of Orb/Start Menu, with all functions. The only possible glitch may be when updates are loaded. Time will tell.

 

[Arpan]

And BTW, I hate iPhone too!

Cheers!!

 

[R0bR]

You're not going to find hard facts and comparisons in efficiency of using the Start Menu over the Start Screen because tech bloggers are too busy with the usual opinionated complaints. After all, they are searching for clicks.

Until tech bloggers start providing facts and data all we have to rely on is Microsoft themselves as to why they did what they did and why they believe the Start Menu is more efficient. The Build Windows 8 blog has interesting information in all aspects of Windows 8 and often they back it up with data.

Here is one on the Start Menu\Start Screen, there are others.

Reflecting on your comments on the Start screen - Building Windows 8 - Site Home - MSDN Blogs

Everyone is entitled to their opinion of Windows 8 and many naysayers bring up valid reasons based on the way THEY use their computer. However, many also state their opinions as fact "It doesn't work for me so it's not going to work for anyone else, Windows 8 will fail!". We don't know how the general population will receive W8 but over the next few months we are going to find out and we'll have plenty to discuss when the time comes.

 

[HippsieGypsie]

Thanks for the article lead, R0bR. Good information. Ditto on your post.

 

[Arpan]

Yes, thanks for the article R0bR. But I'm just a bit (just slightly) disappointed that the article is a year old one. Some changes have probably taken place in the past one year. But something is always better than nothing.

Personally, if we are talking about start menus (no start screen), I liked XP's start menu (only the all programs part) more than 7's (never used Vista) because in XP if you clicked or hovered over All Programs, you didn't need to scroll to see all the programs installed. It's, however, nothing more than a very personal opinion of mine.

 

[Colonel Travis]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion of Windows 8 and many naysayers bring up valid reasons based on the way THEY use their computer. However, many also state their opinions as fact "It doesn't work for me so it's not going to work for anyone else, Windows 8 will fail!".

Who is saying this?

 

[Mustang]

You're not going to find hard facts and comparisons in efficiency of using the Start Menu over the Start Screen.

Hi Rob.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think you did say somewhere in another post that you stoppped using the Start Menu with Win7?

This is not a trick question or an attempt to criticize whatever method you use, but I am genuinely interested to know exactly what it is, because if it is more efficient, then I'd be interested in using it.

These are a few of the things I find Orb Start Menu useful for, aside from not having to leave desktop to access apps:

• Single click on User Name to access AppData/Documents, Contacts, Favorites, etc. Useful after reloading an Acronis image of OS to drag/drop files into these folders from storage partition on main HD.
• Accessing sub or sub-sub-menus of seldom used apps.
• Jump menu for once a week apps, such as registry cleaners.
• Accessing stuff when desktop screen is full. For example when using full screen internet explorer, etc.
• Uninstalling programs using the manufacturer's uninstall option.
• Search command box for regedit, etc.
• Being able to send program shortcuts to desktop.
• Editing program names in All Programs.

Cheers M

 

[R0bR]

You're not going to find hard facts and comparisons in efficiency of using the Start Menu over the Start Screen.

Hi Rob.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think you did say somewhere in another post that you stoppped using the Start Menu with Win7?

This is not a trick question or an attempt to criticize whatever method you use, but I am genuinely interested to know exactly what it is, because if it is more efficient, then I'd be interested in using it.

These are a few of the things I find Orb Start Menu useful for, aside from not having to leave desktop to access apps:

Yes I stopped using the Start Menu for launching any applications, most used applications are pinned to my taskbar, less used applications were on Object Dock, I mostly accessed Start Menu for search.

• Single click on User Name to access AppData/Documents, Contacts, Favorites, etc. Useful after reloading an Acronis image of OS to drag/drop files into these folders from storage partition on main HD. File Explorer is pinned to the Task bar, my profile is in my favorites list plus there are the libraries.
• Accessing sub or sub-sub-menus of seldom used apps. Object Dock or search for even seldom used.
• Jump menu for once a week apps, such as registry cleaners. Don't use them for apps, my documents change rapidly as well so either search for documents or Office apps have recent docs, if I know my latest document is there sure I'll access it that way.
• Accessing stuff when desktop screen is full. For example when using full screen internet explorer, etc. Doesn't matter how full my screen is nothing hides my access points.
• Uninstalling programs using the manufacturer's uninstall option. Not often I come across applications that aren't uninstalled through Uninstall Program in the Control Panel. But yes if the obscure app only has uninstall in the Start Menu I have no choice.
• Search command box for regedit, etc. ??
• Being able to send program shortcuts to desktop. I have no shortcuts on my desktop.
• Editing program names in All Programs. I don't have a requirement to do so.

Don't get me wrong, it's not like I avoid it like the plague as there are obviously times when I need to if I have to pin new applications to the Task Bar or something. What I'm saying is that for my everyday computer use the Start Menu is not primary access point, my annoyance with it is pretty much navigating the hierarchy of the All Programs menu so I do without.

I'm not knocking the Start Menu, I know that it works for many but it doesn't for me and I'm more efficient and productive not using it. It doesn't mean others will be, I've just been doing it long enough that I have become efficient at it by using search, keyboard shortcuts, task bar etc. So my change to Windows 8 was that nothing much has changed except now I use the Start Screen instead of Object Dock and configured my mouse for W8 (access to charms, app launcher, start screen, close app). Even so during my whole work day I'm in desktop 98% of the time so it feels no different to me than using Windows 7.

 

[CalBear]

I loathe the touch-screen concept with a passion.

I will never buy a desktop with a touch-screen.

Nor a laptop.

Touch DOES NOT BELONG on these devices.

At ALL.

It certainly has NO place on my machines.

Fine on a phone or tablet, but unacceptable on REAL machines.

Just as well W8 works just fine with a mouse, or I'd be giving it
a miss, no matter how 'good' it is.

I remember when I wasn't sure why anyone would want to use a mouse. Wordstar and Lotus 123 worked just fine without one. Okay, it didn't take long to get past that mind freeze. I don't plan to get involved with touch screens soon but I'm sure I will sometime. Meanwhile Windows 8 looks like fun and still supports every productive thing I am doing with Windows 7.

 

[akarlz]

You can have the best of both OS bringing back the win 7 star menu without touching any source code in windows 8, If you have a tablet maybe you don´t need the windows 7 start menu but if happen that your using windows 8 on a desktop is really painful with mouse & keyboard.
Just google these too programs (actually there are 5 more like this): StartIsBack & start8 (from stardock) they Restored Windows 7 Start Menu and Start Button and they disabled hot corners by default but charms hot corners, so you'll still have windows 8 start menu with all your apps. BTW you need to activate windows firewall in order to install apps from windows store.

 

[Mustang]

Yes I stopped using the Start Menu for launching any applications, most used applications are pinned to my taskbar, less used applications were on Object Dock, I mostly accessed Start Menu for search.

• Single click on User Name to access AppData/Documents, Contacts, Favorites, etc. Useful after reloading an Acronis image of OS to drag/drop files into these folders from storage partition on main HD. File Explorer is pinned to the Task bar, my profile is in my favorites list plus there are the libraries.
• Accessing sub or sub-sub-menus of seldom used apps. Object Dock or search for even seldom used.
• Jump menu for once a week apps, such as registry cleaners. Don't use them for apps, my documents change rapidly as well so either search for documents or Office apps have recent docs, if I know my latest document is there sure I'll access it that way.
• Accessing stuff when desktop screen is full. For example when using full screen internet explorer, etc. Doesn't matter how full my screen is nothing hides my access points.
• Uninstalling programs using the manufacturer's uninstall option. Not often I come across applications that aren't uninstalled through Uninstall Program in the Control Panel. But yes if the obscure app only has uninstall in the Start Menu I have no choice.
• Search command box for regedit, etc. ??
• Being able to send program shortcuts to desktop. I have no shortcuts on my desktop.
• Editing program names in All Programs. I don't have a requirement to do so.

Thanks very much Rob for all that info and for going to all that trouble. I'm not familiar with Object Dock, presume it's 3rd party?

Re: "Search command box for regedit". Sorry didn't make this clear. If I type "regedit" into "Search programs and files" box in Start Menu and hit Enter on keyboard it opens Registry. Ditto for commands like "sfc /scannow', "msconfig", etc.

It's good to see how other persons achieve various tasks and I can see how you wouldn't need Orb/Start Menu with the method you use. I'm sure with a bit of time and practice I could use a similar system. Food for thought.

Cheers M. :thumb: