Munich, Germany: Linux was disaster, back to Windows

Back in 2004, Munich, Germany decided that they were going to switch to Linux (specifically, LiMux) as their primary operating system and drop Microsoft's Windows operating system. At the time, the decision was said to be cheaper, more reliable and politically correct for the city and this would be the on the same scale as the Berlin Wall falling for politics but for IT.

Read more at: Munich, Germany realizes that deploying Linux was a disaster, going back to Windows - Neowin

 

[Superfly]

The Germans are well known for their thoroughness - I doubt very much they would not have applied due diligence in the costing exercise.

Either way it's quite evident this is politically motivated, thus further speculation is futile.

In making these criticisms, Schmid is echoing issues raised by Mayor Dieter Reiter of the SPD party. Reiter complained of having to wait weeks for an external mail server to be set up just so that he could get mail on his smartphone, and he has criticized the open source software for lagging behind Microsoft's equivalents.
These views aren't held universally, with the City Council defending the "LiMux" project and suggesting that the coalition administration is using the Linux migration as a scapegoat. The Council says the use of open source software has yielded savings of more than €10 million (more than $13 million).

Karl-Heinz Schneider, head of municipal IT services, seems to endorse this view. He says it's no surprise that a new platform should temporarily generate more support requests, and he wasn't aware of any particular complaints.

Microsoft announced last year that it was moving its German headquarters to Munich. This move is planned to take place in 2016. While Reiter was involved in the deal that precipitated the move and describes himself as a "Microsoft fan," he says the criticism of LiMux is unrelated.

Source: Linux-on-the-desktop pioneer Munich now considering a switch back to Windows | Ars Technica

 

[jimbo45]

Hi there

Politics and Jobs -- My experience in Germany is that they are usually very detailed - but people are incredibly specialized in ONE THING and don't want to get involved with anything else -- for example "I specialize in using bolts with ROUND heads -- if you want to use HEXAGONAL heads you have to see my colleague over there"!!.

It's often in Europe (apart from UK which has more of a US type employment model) all about JOBS -- why use only ONE person when THREE can do it !! --I found this with my background from Iceland very frustrating at times since everybody back there has to be able to do several often unrelated tasks - we don't have the manpower to take the German model.

It's a great place to work though in Germany and you get to use some of the best equipment available anywhere. France has even more of a "We need to create jobs whether there are positions for them or not".

As far as Linux and email is concerned - I can well understand the problems - I use Linux regularly but still haven't found an email client that compares with the ease of use and decent connectivity of Ms OUTLOOK - especially with multiple accounts when working for several different clients at the same time.

Cheers
jimbo

 

[lehnerus2000]

As far as Linux and email is concerned - I can well understand the problems - I use Linux regularly but still haven't found an email client that compares with the ease of use and decent connectivity of Ms OUTLOOK - especially with multiple accounts when working for several different clients at the same time.

All of the email clients I've tried are awful.

I used Outlook 2007 at my last job (it was awful).
I use Thunderbird on my PC (it's awful too).

I find it weird that they are so complicated to set up and use, when they only need to be able to display some text.
Even Photoshop is easier to use (despite its horrible Adobe GUI).

 

[CountMike]

Just some of the reasons I almost exclusively use webmail for all of accounts. Can download only what I want to, rest of it doesn't even reach my computer. Also safer way. Only for some mass mailing I use Outlook.

 

[whs]

This is a big political game in Munich. The reason some people give is

Grund sei, dass es in den vergangenen Jahren immer wieder Beschwerden von Nutzern gegeben habe,

meaning that they had complaints especially about the user interface. Wait until these guys go to Windows 8. The city will come to a screeching halt.

In order to understand this you have to know how a city administration works and what kind of people they employ - not the swiftest. When I was a system engineer in the 60s, I had to work with IT departments in goverment agencies. That was the low point of my carreer.

 

[jimbo45]

Just some of the reasons I almost exclusively use webmail for all of accounts. Can download only what I want to, rest of it doesn't even reach my computer. Also safer way. Only for some mass mailing I use Outlook.

Hi there

Webmail is usually an abomination --apart from the fact it's Ad sponsored it usually doesn't have any easy way of handling multiple accounts from different email servers -- try and connect to a webmail client when you are working for different clients -- say Iceland Weather service or UK DVLA - Dept of Motor vehicles and licensing of drivers etc). These types of organisations also aren't too happy either if you try and connect to them from the public web (excluding the "public service" parts of their remit).

Cheers
jimbo

 

[CountMike]

Just some of the reasons I almost exclusively use webmail for all of accounts. Can download only what I want to, rest of it doesn't even reach my computer. Also safer way. Only for some mass mailing I use Outlook.

Hi there

Webmail is usually an abomination --apart from the fact it's Ad sponsored it usually doesn't have any easy way of handling multiple accounts from different email servers -- try and connect to a webmail client when you are working for different clients -- say Iceland Weather service or UK DVLA - Dept of Motor vehicles and licensing of drivers etc). These types of organisations also aren't too happy either if you try and connect to them from the public web (excluding the "public service" parts of their remit).

Cheers
jimbo

Well, I don't know about that, I have accounts with Gmail, Hotmail, Ymail and few other ones with my full name and everything else, I just work them from web browser, that's all. Every message has my IP that I sent message from, and messages could be sent to me thru those accounts. It's practically same as if I did it using any e-mail client except that I can choose what to download or what not to. I have contacted that way and had mail exchange with Canadian government many times and also for dealing with bank and other institutions. Those are absolutely same accounts as I would use thru any e-mail client. There's absolutely no difference. Same messages appear when I open them in Outlook or anywhere else. I'm permanently logged in Gmail and every time a message is received in that account I get notification about it. Nobody can even know if I'm sending or receiving a message using browser or Outlook.

 

[jimbo45]

Hi there

Another No No about webmail is that it requires a Browser and fairly unfettered Internet Access for it to work -- a security risk for a lot of organisations. Webmail clients too usually bypass any Work type of email server so monitoring and controlling attachments / spam / copyright issues of documents etc is almost impossible. Outlook itself does have a web interface but I know of nobody who uses that method any more these days.

Cheers
jimbo

 

[Fredledingue]

I agree with Jimbo that webmail is an abomination. Just good for your trashbin mails. Webmail portals are slow, that's the worse thing about it. I like to get things within the millisecond. I can't stand waiting for the webpage and the 1Mb of javascript to download every time I want to check my e-mail and then wait another page download and another batch of javascript to be run for every e-mail I want to read. Being based on Javascript the interface is much slower than an off line, exe compiled client program like Outlook. + You can see your downloaded e-mails, compose e-mails, sort them etc off line. Half of my computer work is off line, I mean the modem turned off, and this include e-mail works.

 

[CountMike]

I have gmail tab always open in FF and 'am signed in all the times so I get notifications about new messages as soon as they come, also using G-talk thru it. This account is used for keeping tab of new messages from few forums too. I use Outlook for other accounts too and it takes a while to download all the messages when I open it so webmail works much faster for me. Another account I use webmail to check on mail has no other option anyway because it's an old account, from 1997 and it's tied to one phone number since it was first used with dial-up modem and there's no other way to reach it without going to dial-up and paying fees for it. If I used Outlook only for mail I have to wait several minutes for it ti synchronize everything. This way it's all instantaneous.

 

[Coke Robot]

Goooooood.....gooooooood.....



Not surprising as it's never the year of the Linux PC. That's what happens when you're a company that makes a lot of software (sometimes that plays nicely with each other) and target the enterprise effectively enough to become the mainstay of business. It's odd to think that in reality, almost everything you have, interact with, pay/buy with has probably come across Microsoft code. You can't take down an empire by not having a better equivalency. Everyone says you can use Ubuntu with OpenOffice and GIMP and Mozilla Firefox and Thunderbird and be fine, says the 0.001% of the marketshare. There are alternatives, but they're all subpar.

It doesn't help with Office 365 has enterprise licensing plans that are such a steal and it won't help things at all if they decide to release Windows 365 as well with similar plans. If Microsoft gets their poop in the group and simplify enterprise licensing plans and/or offer Windows+Office 365 together, the thinking of apple products or Linux distros probably will go to the wayside like vista in the workplace.

Now if the enterprise and web developers would stop targeting old IE versions for company apps/sites, that would be great as well.

 

[SIW2]

LOL.

 

[pparks1]

If Microsoft gets their poop in the group and simplify enterprise licensing plans and/or offer Windows+Office 365 together, the thinking of apple products or Linux distros probably will go to the wayside like vista in the workplace.

Never underestimate the loyalty of a diehard Apple user. After getting my first Apple back in March of this year, I've grown quite fond of it. I can see why many people like them better, find them more intuitive and would simply just rather use them. As a lifelong windows user and Certified Systems Engineer, and a certified Linux systems engineer, I'm pretty damn happy with my MacBook Pro. < As our the other diehard Windows and Linux techies who I have worked with over the past 15 years.

 

[Coke Robot]

If Microsoft gets their poop in the group and simplify enterprise licensing plans and/or offer Windows+Office 365 together, the thinking of apple products or Linux distros probably will go to the wayside like vista in the workplace.

Never underestimate the loyalty of a diehard Apple user. After getting my first Apple back in March of this year, I've grown quite fond of it. I can see why many people like them better, find them more intuitive and would simply just rather use them. As a lifelong windows user and Certified Systems Engineer, and a certified Linux systems engineer, I'm pretty damn happy with my MacBook Pro. < As our the other diehard Windows and Linux techies who I have worked with over the past 15 years.

I don't underestimate apple fans, there's a reason why they're stereotypically known to be more extremist about their loyalty than certain religious groups.

Meh, I've used Linux and used mac os, I don't see one over the other and neither, to me at least, make me wish Windows had feature "x" from platform "a." It's more like platform "a" lacks feature "x" that's in Windows that I can't live without. For example, 50/50 window snap and resizable app snap. Using anything not Windows 7 and up feels like using xp, which by the way is what mac os feels like to me when I use it. I've grown up on Windows and will live and die with my Windows Phone in hand.

Never underestimate the loyalty of a diehard Windows user.

 

[jimbo45]

Hi there

Of course you wouldn't expect sau AUDI or CITROEN to say "It's the Year of the BMW" would you -- so those articles written in the "Pseudo Technical" press are about as useful as a Chocolate Teapot.

Linux and Open source has some significant advantages - especially for small groups of users or single individuals -- but for a large "Public Service" corportation like a city council - I doubt it -- it has to interface with a lot of other COMMON software - probably Windows based, Staff probably need total re-training and maintaining a load of Linux boxes is by no means a trivial or cheap task - probably costs more than maintaining Windows boxes.

@Count Mike -- Webmail is NOT an option in most businesses as an email client --even things like GMAIL would be frowned on. Apart from the performance of Webmail in general (and it's usually pretty hopeless due to the way it works) it doesn't work OFFLINE and people on work computers generally can't install their own choice of browser. Added to which the security risk is horrendous compared to mail using a works Exchange or similar server and proper email client program like Outlook.

Cheers
jimbo

 

[CountMike]

@Count Mike -- Webmail is NOT an option in most businesses as an email client --even things like GMAIL would be frowned on. Apart from the performance of Webmail in general (and it's usually pretty hopeless due to the way it works) it doesn't work OFFLINE and people on work computers generally can't install their own choice of browser. Added to which the security risk is horrendous compared to mail using a works Exchange or similar server and proper email client program like Outlook.

Cheers
jimbo

I was talking about my own use of webmail, I use it only for not too important stuff out of convenience only.

 

[jimbo45]

@Count Mike -- Webmail is NOT an option in most businesses as an email client --even things like GMAIL would be frowned on. Apart from the performance of Webmail in general (and it's usually pretty hopeless due to the way it works) it doesn't work OFFLINE and people on work computers generally can't install their own choice of browser. Added to which the security risk is horrendous compared to mail using a works Exchange or similar server and proper email client program like Outlook.

Cheers
jimbo

I was talking about my own use of webmail, I use it only for not too important stuff out of convenience only.

Hi there

That's fine - but the article was about the use of LINUX for a public service organisation (Munich City Council) which has a load of computers like any other large city council - and using PUBLIC web based services like email does pose horrendous security risks. I'm not sure what email client the City of Munich uses but I'll bet it's not liked at all compared with OUTLOOK - which while not a perfect email client I can't really say I've found (for me at least) a better one.

KMAIL on KDE (Linux desktop - doesn't matter which distro - KDE is a common desktop GUI that works on all of them) is about the best Linux email client I've handled but again a lot of people don't run KDE desktops on their Linux boxes. KMAIL looks reasonably "Outlook" like and no problem with multiple accounts / servers / IMAP etc.

I don't like Thunderbird or evolution - in fact IMO the best email client ever for individuals was probably OUTLOOK EXPRESS which disappeared with Windows XP --now if somebody could come up with a decent clone of that I WOULD use it.

@pparks1 - Nothing wrong with Apple -- apart from a) it's expensive and b) everything is proprietary -- even the hardware connections like USB etc. (I believe they've made the hardware a bit more compatible now so you can hook up standard USB devices - but it took them a long time !!. - Also I don't like the Apple store or "ICHOONES" either). The Macbook though works fine - I wouldn't have trouble using it - I just wouldn't BUY one though.

Cheers
jimbo

 

[pparks1]

@jimbo45. The Apple hardware is not really that expensive anymore. But you have to factor in exactly what you get. For many, they don't need that level of hardware, and unfortunately their isn't a budget Apple line. You cannot find a $500 brand new MacBook. However, a pc with as nice of a screen, with the same cpu and ram, with an SSD approaching the PCI Express speed from the MacBook, with mini display port, HDMI, USB3, with 8 hour battery life that can instantly come out of sleep and go to sleep, with a great touchpad and come in under 3.5lbs...And you will be right around the price of the Apple.

Certainly wish they (Apple) were more servicable...but even ultrabook pcs are now getting less and less serviceable. And some more choices and customizations would be welcome, but they shoot more for consistency across their userbase.

 

[whs]

I got a 10" Windows 8.1 with a quad core, SSD, HDMI, USB3, with 11hours battery life, great touchpad and 2lbs for $329. Who needs Apple.

 

[HippsieGypsie]

I got a 10" Windows 8.1 with a quad core, SSD, HDMI, USB3, with 11hours battery life, great touchpad and 2lbs for $329. Who needs Apple.

The forum's greatest shopper!