Windows 8 and 8.1 Forums


8.1 Evaluation from Windows Secrets Newsletter

  1. #101


    Posts : 534
    Windows 7, Windows 8 RP


    Quote Originally Posted by musiclover7 View Post
    I decided to go to my all apps screen and look for the newly installed program, which is what most people will do by the way, assuming they are able to find it. I knew perfectly well that I could type in virt.. and be done.. I wanted to find it. My all apps screen is a mosh.
    In 8.1 you can set your sort for All Apps to frequently used, anything just installed will be first in the list and labelled NEW until launched.

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  2. #102


    My apology for the delay > Busy week > Finally found some time to catch up on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by djsigma View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by HippsieGypsie View Post
    > The desktop is treated as an app. < This is the clue that I think gives away the direction that they are taking.
    I don't understand the correlation. The desktop is an app - OK - but that means that they are going to get rid of that particular app?
    I wouldn't necessarily call it an app. I think member mdmd tagged it correctly a while back > It is a portal for opening and using legacy Win32 apps. The desktop is "treated" as an app in that one can open it and close it out like a Modern/Metro Store app. It is no longer the main launching platform of Windows 8 and 8.1 OSs. Start Screen and All Apps are. I think in time the Desktop "portal app" will be eliminated. Here is the new Modern/Metro Desktop where Store apps open (depending on what system color one has chosen):

    Attachment 28484

    Here is one with the Store app snapped (The Store is an app):

    Attachment 28485

    Quote Originally Posted by djsigma View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by HiippsieGypsie
    What may be upsetting for a lot of people is the fact that MS has not stated either way, so all are left in limbo wondering what is to be next.
    Right, but do you really expect them to lay out a long term vision of the future right now? Of course not. Their vision is not set in stone even in the short term, as you can see by the return of the Start button in 8.1. But we're not just talking about the removal/return of a simple button here. We're talking about the potential removal of the entire desktop, which would instantly make all desktop software going back many years unusable.
    No, it's not set in stone, but I think they made the gravestone for the Desktop ready to be set > "Here lies the Desktop ~ RIP"

    No, the Desktop isn't going anywhere sometime soon. I'm thinking it won't be included in 9. W7's extended support end date of 1/14/2020. 8 with the Desktop will be supported until 1/10/2023. I don't think the date of 8.1 has been released, but it should be around the end of 2024 or 2025. If they include the Desktop in the next one, which, like I stated earlier that I don't think it will be, that'll take it into the mid-to-late 20's. Uncertain, but we know at least the desktop will be supported until basically the end of 2024. That's roughly 10-1/2 years. If it's included with the next one, it'll be roughly 13 to 14 years. 10-1/2 years is more than enough time for everyone, including enterprise, to make the change.

    Microsoft Product Lifecycle Search
    Microsoft Product Lifecycle Search

    Quote Originally Posted by djsigma View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by HippsieGypsie
    When I'm using my Vz/Android smart phone, I enter a walled-garden system. I do not own any of the Apple products, but I know some that do and from what I read one enters a walled-garden system. I would imagine it's the same with other systems. They are all swaying/pushing us to use their products and/or services.
    A walled garden only gets you so far. It has certain advantages to the end user, such as security and stability, but it reduces choice. The beauty of open systems is that I can write a piece of software, upload it, and you can download and run it on your machine. With a desktop operating system, that is vital functionality for a large number of people, including being vital to enterprise.

    I do think people are basing their vision of the future on what the Metro part of Windows 8 or 8.1 is like now, so they think "imagine if Windows 9 was just this, but without the desktop". That would be awful, but that's not going to happen. Over time, the UI and usability quirks will be smoothed out, new features will be added, more apps will be added to the store that cater to people's needs and those apps will improve over time too, but even when we get to a point where there are people who will happily use only Metro apps, there will still be a need for the desktop. At worst, I see it becoming an optional component.
    I hear you and understand that the desktop is an "open system", but I don't totally understand your reasoning. Basically MS in their "remagination" themselves is simply mimicking the other two tech giants. I haven't read or heard much of iUsers complaining about the walled garden system they're in with both hardware and software. Nor Adroiders or Chromers about their apps. Now all of a sudden when MS wants to take control and wants a piece of the pie all hell breaks lose. Mainly some see it as corporate greed and/or others see it as corporate control. I see it as seeking a market for profit. Why all of a sudden MS has become an evil empire to some is beyond me, not to say that's necessarily your attitude. Business has no heart. It is about making profit and that is all.

    If anything, we Windows users have been spoiled (for lack of a better word). Personally one of the problems I see is that MS has spoiled us with many desktop applications that are bundled with their past OSs. Notepad, Wordpad, WLM, desktop IE, Media Center, Calculator, and the likes. With the threat of the desktop being eliminated, so will these be eliminated, although some of these are replaced by their Modern/Metro Store apps > Apps that didn't make a very good first impression, especially in 8, because of lack of quality of stability and/or usefulness. I think with time and updates they are coming along quite nicely.

    Back to:
    Quote Originally Posted by djsigma View Post
    A walled garden only gets you so far. It has certain advantages to the end user, such as security and stability, but it reduces choice.
    There are pros and cons to all stytems. You touched on a word that is probably the best feature of a walled-gardened system > Security. While hackers are putting bullet holes through and viruses infecting the Desktop platform via browsers, we can all safely use the Store and apps instead. Wile we're downloading an app via the Store we don't need to be concerned. Wile we're reading the news via a news app, we don't need to be concerned. Wile we're using a dictionary app, we don't need to be concerned, but once we open a browser, we lay ourselves open to a lot of problems of the desktop system. I think we need to focus on all the variables of both systems to be able to make a personal choice.
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  3. #103


    Posts : 103
    Windows 8.1 Pro with Media Center (64 bit)


    Quote Originally Posted by HippsieGypsie View Post
    Basically MS in their "remagination" themselves is simply mimicking the other two tech giants. I haven't read or heard much of iUsers complaining about the walled garden system they're in with both hardware and software. Nor Adroiders or Chromers about their apps. Now all of a sudden when MS wants to take control and wants a piece of the pie all hell breaks lose.
    The big difference with Windows is, there is a TON of software out there on the web that people would no longer be able to use if the desktop disappeared. Think of all of the programmers who make a living writing software which they sell independently. All of a sudden, they have to give a cut to MS. I couldn't write a program, give it to you and have you run it on your machine. That would seriously suck in all kinds of ways. How is a business going to run custom software written in-house?

    iOS is a mobile phone and tablet OS only. It's been a walled garden from day 1. With OS X, you can install software from any source and that's a more comparable operating system to Windows. If Windows become closed so that you could only run apps from the Windows Store, while OS X remained open, I would switch to OS X in a heartbeat and the number of people doing the same would be huge.

    Chrome OS is really just a web browser and isn't comparable to Windows. As for Android, you can install apps from any source, so that is more like Windows in that respect. While you can use the Google Play store, you can download an APK file from literally anywhere and Google is fine with that because you don't have to jailbreak/hack Android devices to be able to do it.

    While hackers are putting bullet holes through and viruses infecting the Desktop platform via browsers, we can all safely use the Store and apps instead.
    For now. Infected apps have been found in the Google Play store on a number of occasions. The Windows Store is not a worthwhile thing for hackers to focus on right now though.

    Once we open a browser, we lay ourselves open to a lot of problems of the desktop system.
    I'd rather we tackle that issue than say "all you can have from now on are whitelisted apps from this one store". Java has been the biggest attack vector for hackers in the last few years. Basically, we need to do away with plug-ins. We need to make sure that the browser runs in a sand-boxed environment.
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  4. #104


    Posts : 1,925
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    Quote Originally Posted by djsigma View Post
    The big difference with Windows is, there is a TON of software out there on the web that people would no longer be able to use if the desktop disappeared. Think of all of the programmers who make a living writing software which they sell independently. All of a sudden, they have to give a cut to MS. I couldn't write a program, give it to you and have you run it on your machine. That would seriously suck in all kinds of ways. How is a business going to run custom software written in-house?
    Ahh.. so you're getting upset about something without even knowing anything about it.

    First, Most software developers would much rather have 70% of 1,000,000 sales than 100% of 1,000 sales. That's why even companies like Adobe and Corel are writing Windows Store apps. The Windows store gives them much more exposure, and it takes away the headache of doing their own payment processing (obviously, Adobe and Corel are big enough to do it themselves, but i'm referring to smaller shops). They'll also get more sales because people will Trust the Microsoft store more than they will some random site on the internet that says "trust me, I won't steal your credit card numbers". Remember, you have to pay a % of the sale to the payment processor as well, so it's not like you're not already losing a percentage anyways.

    Second, for internal development, Microsoft has a process called "Side loading" that companies can use to load apps inside their organization, without having to use the store and pay any fee.

    Quote Originally Posted by djsigma View Post
    iOS is a mobile phone and tablet OS only. It's been a walled garden from day 1. With OS X, you can install software from any source and that's a more comparable operating system to Windows. If Windows become closed so that you could only run apps from the Windows Store, while OS X remained open, I would switch to OS X in a heartbeat and the number of people doing the same would be huge.
    Again, you don't seem to know much about the things you're referring to. Apple is attempting to merge iOS and OSX, and they have developed an App store for MacOS X.

    Apple - OS X Mountain Lion - Apps

    Quote Originally Posted by djsigma View Post
    Chrome OS is really just a web browser and isn't comparable to Windows. As for Android, you can install apps from any source, so that is more like Windows in that respect. While you can use the Google Play store, you can download an APK file from literally anywhere and Google is fine with that because you don't have to jailbreak/hack Android devices to be able to do it.
    Actually, no. You can't install an APK from literally anywhere. The Play store encrypts APK's so they can only be installed on the device that downloaded them. Thus, if I download an apk from the play store and then copy it to a friends device (or upload It to a website) then it won't work for anyone but me.
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  5. #105


    the highlight of the read by the link reflects that the successor of the Win 8 has arrived with the more sturdy features which may prove user friendly .. let's see the responses
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  6. #106


    Posts : 103
    Windows 8.1 Pro with Media Center (64 bit)


    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere View Post
    Ahh.. so you're getting upset about something without even knowing anything about it.
    Wut?

    I'm saying what would happen if the desktop were to go away as a rebuttal to someone who said "oh, it would be fine if it disappeared". If you think that having one store owned by one company being the only way to buy software would be better than a free and open market, I'd say you're crazy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere
    First, Most software developers would much rather have 70% of 1,000,000 sales than 100% of 1,000 sales. That's why even companies like Adobe and Corel are writing Windows Store apps. The Windows store gives them much more exposure, and it takes away the headache of doing their own payment processing (obviously, Adobe and Corel are big enough to do it themselves, but i'm referring to smaller shops).
    I don't see how this is relevant, given that today, the Windows Store is just another way to sell software, rather than being the only way. Ask Adobe or Corel how they would feel if they were no longer allowed to sell software for Windows directly on their own websites and see what they say then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere
    Second, for internal development, Microsoft has a process called "Side loading" that companies can use to load apps inside their organization, without having to use the store and pay any fee.
    There's your piracy/malware enabler. "Hey, it's the security of white listed apps!.......... oh, but you can also side load apps from any source.....".

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere
    Again, you don't seem to know much about the things you're referring to. Apple is attempting to merge iOS and OSX, and they have developed an App store for MacOS X.
    Someone used OS X as an example of an OS that's a walled garden. It is NOT a walled garden. I know exactly what I'm talking about, thanks. OS X and iOS share some functionality, but there is no evidence that Apple are working towards a single OS for desktops, phones and tablets.

    Quote Originally Posted by OS X
    Actually, no. You can't install an APK from literally anywhere. The Play store encrypts APK's so they can only be installed on the device that downloaded them.
    Except you can download APKs from places other than the Play Store, which Google is perfectly fine with. You are NOT forced to download software from the Play Store only, therefore again, Android is NOT an example of a walled garden, which was my entire point. Just type "download APK" into Google and you'll find plenty of sites where you can directly download APKs. Sorry, but you'll have to get back to me when you know what you're talking about, which unfortunately is not today.

    Walled garden: -

    iOS (unless you Jailbreak, which lots of people do)

    NOT a walled garden: -

    Android
    Windows
    OS X

    Just because the above 3 operating systems all have stores of their own does not make them walled gardens.
    Last edited by djsigma; 30 Sep 2013 at 08:35.
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  7. #107


    USA, Idaho
    Posts : 1,062
    Win 8, (VM win7, XP, Vista)


    Our we talking about Windows or our we talking Mac OS 10. I ask this because this is the same argument that took place when Apple switched from the old OS 5,6,7,,8, and 9 system to OS 10. It took them three years to get OS 10 cleaned up to the point that Mac users were happy. Then in 2009 they went to the App Store format, and had Mac users in an uproar over that. Ten in 2010 they added launchpad to the OS (similar to Start Screen, another uproar. The reactions to these changes are what seem to be happening with Windows 8. People just don't like change when they are comfortable with they are used to regardless of what they are used to using. The Linux World had the same problems with the addition of Unity.
    Hope this is readable, really having problems with my head today. Can't seem to remember where some o f the keys are on the Keyboard, and at times I loose by train of thought. (damn took me thirty minutes to write just a couple of sentences. whew, finally done (I think).
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  8. #108


    Posts : 1,925
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    Quote Originally Posted by djsigma View Post
    I don't see how this is relevant, given that today, the Windows Store is just another way to sell software, rather than being the only way. Ask Adobe or Corel how they would feel if they were no longer allowed to sell software for Windows directly on their own websites and see what they say then.
    The Windows store is the only way to sell Windows 8/RT Apps, and the only way to sell Windows Phone 8 apps. Adobe and Corel are in fact working on Windows 8 versions of their apps, and will likely welcome the change if it becomes the norm.

    Quote Originally Posted by djsigma View Post
    There's your piracy/malware enabler. "Hey, it's the security of white listed apps!.......... oh, but you can also side load apps from any source.....".
    Again, you should really read something about it before you go making comments about it. You have to be able to compile the app in order to side-load it. You can't do that with commercial apps, thus no piracy.

    Quote Originally Posted by djsigma View Post
    Someone used OS X as an example of an OS that's a walled garden. It is NOT a walled garden. I know exactly what I'm talking about, thanks. OS X and iOS share some functionality, but there is no evidence that Apple are working towards a single OS for desktops, phones and tablets.
    OSX is moving towards a walled garden approach. The start is the Mac Store, which I note you completely ignored my references to. If you knew what you were talking about, you would know that Apple has been hinting at the unification of OSX and iOS for quite some time. Here's some examples:

    The Merger of Mac OS and iOS - The Real Secret of iOS 7, the iPhone 5s and the A7 Chip

    There's even a bunch of articles by people arguing why apple isn't doing it "just yet", for example:

    Apple unlikely to merge OS X and iOS just yet as WWDC looms - IT Analysis from V3.co.uk

    It's clear that everyone in the industry believes that this is where Apple is going, it's just uncertain as to when. So your claim that there is "no evidence" is either show a lack of any awareness of the industry, or wishful thinking.

    Quote Originally Posted by djsigma View Post
    Just because the above 3 operating systems all have stores of their own does not make them walled gardens.
    No, they're BECOMING walled gardens. Certainly, the Windows 8 RT is.
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  9. #109


    Posts : 103
    Windows 8.1 Pro with Media Center (64 bit)


    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere
    Adobe and Corel are in fact working on Windows 8 versions of their apps, and will likely welcome the change if it becomes the norm.
    What makes you think this? You honestly think that if Adobe could no longer sell Creative Cloud subscriptions directly to consumers because they had to go through the Windows Store and therefore pay a percentage of their earnings to Microsoft, that they would welcome that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere
    It's clear that everyone in the industry believes that this is where Apple is going
    Is it? LOL. And I didn't ignore the Mac App store. It's irrelevant though because OS X is not a walled garden. You do know what a walled garden is, yeah?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere
    No, they're BECOMING walled gardens. Certainly, the Windows 8 RT is.
    RT, which has been dropped by every manufacturer aside from Microsoft because nobody wants it. Yeah, that's the future alright!
    Last edited by Brink; 30 Sep 2013 at 15:00. Reason: removed content that breaches forum rules
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  10. #110


    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    Our we talking about Windows or our we talking Mac OS 10. I ask this because this is the same argument that took place when Apple switched from the old OS 5,6,7,,8, and 9 system to OS 10. It took them three years to get OS 10 cleaned up to the point that Mac users were happy. Then in 2009 they went to the App Store format, and had Mac users in an uproar over that. Ten in 2010 they added launchpad to the OS (similar to Start Screen, another uproar. The reactions to these changes are what seem to be happening with Windows 8. People just don't like change when they are comfortable with they are used to regardless of what they are used to using. The Linux World had the same problems with the addition of Unity.
    Hope this is readable, really having problems with my head today. Can't seem to remember where some o f the keys are on the Keyboard, and at times I loose by train of thought. (damn took me thirty minutes to write just a couple of sentences. whew, finally done (I think).
    You are an inspiration, Lee! Where some in your condition would simply give up, you keep on keeping on.

    A rather great post indeed! Well written and very readable. Short and to the point.

    Lol! Far better than from some of us that are long-winded.
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