Removing Start for Windows 8 was the right thing to do

Like them or loathe them, Metro-style apps are here to stay, so let's stop agonising over the lack of a Start button — here are the very good reasons why it makes sense to get rid of it.

Read more at source:
Removing Start for Windows 8 was the right thing to do | ZDNet



For those that can't live without the Start Menu, see:
http://www.eightforums.com/tutorials/8528-start-menu-restore-windows-8-a.html

 

[mdmd]

Put spacers in the Start screen and move all the icons you don't want off to the right of the spacers. That way, you have a clean Start screen.

Yes dirtyvu. I removed the spacers to make a screen shot and post. I use that tile app and will fill in the spaces with images, to be used like wallpaper, or blanks, to place the tiles on the screen where I want them. Usually bottom right corner.

 

[mdmd]

I want a holding pen for my programs. The taskbar is too small, the Metro Start screen is too stupid. Where am I supposed to put all the stuff that's in my 7 Start menu now?

Since you have said on previous occasions that you will not use 8, and are probably not using 8 now, all I can suggest is that the all apps area is where program groups are automatically created like the start menu. Some will never accept the priority of the touch centric design, but that is the way it is. I find it very easy to use with touchpad or mouse / keyboard. And it does not seem cluttered in any way to me.

 

[Colonel Travis]

Some will never accept the priority of the touch centric design, but that is the way it is.

Huh? My phone is touch and it makes sense to have it that way. Same with a tablet. It's got nothing to do with that.

 

[mdmd]

Some will never accept the priority of the touch centric design, but that is the way it is.

Huh? My phone is touch and it makes sense to have it that way. Same with a tablet. It's got nothing to do with that.

Yes, but my desktop is not mobile. So 8 is a phone / desktop OS. It does have to do with the fact that my PC is used as a traditional desktop PC in every way. I happen to appreciate the difference from previous versions. I like the new design. It is a touch and mouse / keyboard combo design with an emphasis on touch. Removal of the start menu was part of the touch centric design. You could say touch has no place on a desktop PC, for home use or business. But that is not how technology is evolving. I might even buy a Surface computer but am very disappointed they are not using USB3. Why put USB2 on a new device?

 

[Colonel Travis]

You could say touch has no place on a desktop PC, for home use or business. But that is not how technology is evolving.

I could say that but I don't. On the other hand, try touch with a 300 row spreadsheet with the way desktops and monitors are configured now. Try it with anything configured as monitors and desktops are now. Going in a direction is not the same as being where you are now. Leaning over your desk at work, leaning over your desk at home - total PITA in 2012. What about 2022? Maybe not. But to say - gee, I want to play Fruit Slice on my monitor that's three feet away from my shoulder. Yeah OK, have fun.

Down the road, if MS or anyone else can configure PCs differently and better, I'm all for it.

 

[mdmd]

You could say touch has no place on a desktop PC, for home use or business. But that is not how technology is evolving.

I could say that but I don't. On the other hand, try touch with a 300 row spreadsheet with the way desktops and monitors are configured now.

This is another issue. 8 is a fully functional business OS that can be configured for use by anyone. Touch has little to do with the current release on the desktop. Spreadsheets and other technical applications are easily handled in Win32 (the desktop). How application development will evolve is an unknown quantity. For the foreseeable future, most every desktop application will be handled by Win32. WinRT is more consumer based for average folks and not business. The inclusion of Office, in Win RT devices, makes it clear that the evolution of the new design has a significant use potential. The removal of the start menu should not be a deal breaker.

Spreadsheet apps and business apps can be launched easily from WinRT and should not interfere with a working environment. It is a pleasure to experience WinRT.

 

[R0bR]

I might even buy a Surface computer but am very disappointed they are not using USB3. Why put USB2 on a new device?

The Surface Pro has USB 3.

 

[mdmd]

The Surface Pro has USB 3.

That's great! I was reading a specification online today that said USB2. Oh well, so much the better.
Oops... I was looking at a different model.

 

[mdmd]

As it relates to the removal of the start menu, arguing over tile count, or an effort to organize, or whether you like the new design, does not invalidate the competency of the OS. Skipping an OS is a fine idea, since they are released every 3 years or so, but making a judgement about fitness for use based on a dislike of the user interface is irrational. Just because you don't like the appearance of it, does not equate with - the OS cannot function properly and is not suitable for use. How you use a computer is always affected by dramatic changes to a routine. The classic shell or other options are a great ideas. You will have to spend time configuring your new menu, however. If one is concerned about being taken away from the desktop, even for a split second, then you have lost me. I am not zoomed into any critical application that requires tedious attention. I am going to get a cup of coffee.

 

[Colonel Travis]

but making a judgement about fitness for use based on a dislike of the user interface is irrational.

What is it with you Metro people? My reasons are rational. I just happen to disagree with you - I'm not calling into question your mental state, I don't argue that you're running a fool's errand with touch technology, etc.

I mean c'mon.

 

[mdmd]

I am on this forum because I like the Windows 8. It would never occur to me to become a member of a forum of tutorials, support and discussion groups to make endless critical judgments. Opinions and personalities vary but from my point of view, I would not be on a forum for an OS that I dislike. It is illogical to me. Glad to be associated with metro. Removal of the start menu is the right thing to do for how Windows 8 technologies are designed. A lack of fitness for use is a general statement that, one could say, reduces the technology to an invalid status. It doesn't work properly. That is not a preference or a disagreement. One is declaring that the OS is without value. Or one might characterize the expected or current user of Windows 8 to be void of sophistication. The legacy start menu has played a significant role in the execution of Windows products for years. Windows 8 is not without a menu system, MS has adopted a new approach to how users can manage their computer. Discussion groups are fine, but my preference is to be positive and helpful. In order to be reasonable, one should typically supply a viable explanation as to why something doesn't work in more precise terms than it's ugly. If there are technical difficulties based on running 8 in a VM or as a dual or triple boot or with drivers that do not exist yet, then that would be evidence. Multi monitor issues, networking issues, user account issues, ... that is evidence of a problem that can or cannot be resolved. Stating that the lack of a start menu with nested hierarchies makes Windows 8 unusable is inaccurate unless one can make the case in some other way than an opinion. If you need a start menu, then one can be installed. Removal of the start menu is the right thing to do because a new vision of computing is in play and will be for sale starting Oct 26, 2012. I like this topic. What I would like to see is someone who dislikes 8 with no orb say, I don't care for it, but I can make this work, it is different, but I can manage.



For those that can't live without the Start Menu, see:
http://www.eightforums.com/tutorials/8528-start-menu-restore-windows-8-a.html

 

[Colonel Travis]

mdmd, I gave my reasons - in detail - why I don't like 8 before you even joined this site. It's not my fault you don't know what they are, and they are no different than anyone else's who isn't a Metro fan.

You Metro lovers are obsessed with being right. It's one of the most bizarre phenomena I've seen in some time - especially with the MS crowd, which isn't typically associated with fanboy-ness. I read this site not to just bash 8, but to learn about other computer stuff - including the latest news on 8, even though I'm not using it. I like to stay informed - might want to try that some time and understand where people like me are coming from instead of insulting their intelligence with stuff like this:

Stating that the lack of a start menu with nested hierarchies makes Windows 8 unusable is inaccurate unless one can make the case in some other way than an opinion. If you need a start menu, then one can be installed.

I just called you out in a comment before you wrote that that saying someone is "irrational" for not like 8, and here you are again - except now I'm not irrational but inaccurate. What gives? I disagree with you, but show me when I called you wrong and irrational for your opinion?

You don't even know what we've been arguing. I'm laughing, honestly, because this kind of conversation happens repeatedly around here. Do you actually read anything we, the anti-8 crowd, put down? Because we're not hiding it. It's all over the place. I know where you're coming from, upside down and sideways. You do not know the other side nearly as well, because you aren't really interested in knowing. You're interested in being right. You think it's just about a Start button? Ummmmm, no. That's not entirely it. Part of it? Yes. But getting the start button back via 3rd-party software isn't enough for me to upgrade. Even if it were the only issue, it wouldn't be enough because the other improvements are marginal. But what do I know? I'm just a poor slob who's stuck in the past and afraid of touch technology.

Knowing what works for you is not the same as being right. It means you just know what works for you. And I've said this over and over to other people - I'm glad you like 8. Seriously. I don't try to convince you to not like 8. Would be nice if you showed the same respect to those with whom you disagree.

 

[Coke Robot]

I also love how apparently, to use a touchscreen with a desktop, YOU HAVE TO WORK LIKE A ZOMBIE. That you will be extending your arms three to five feet away from you and it's so uncomfortable and it will never work and it's preposterous and it has no place.

OK.

That's what will happen if you do it wrong, taking a new input device into a older traditional input scenario. The bigger picture is being lost here. We've adapted to input methods since DOS. We don't use DOS anymore, we don't use an OS where it's absolutely vital to use a keyboard to navigate. We use a GUI that needs a pointing device, like a mouse or stylus, to navigate. The point being is the different scenarios called for different adaption to input method. To say that to work with touch on a desktop or elsewhere requires hours of strain and zombie like posture would be just as well saying, "I have no idea how to work with touch and the only thing I can think of is using it like I have setup today." Not going to work.

Gee, did people look like zombies when they penciled in spreadsheets or drew blue prints or wrote essays?...

 

[Coke Robot]

mdmd, I gave my reasons - in detail - why I don't like 8 before you even joined this site. It's not my fault you don't know what they are, and they are no different than anyone else's who isn't a Metro fan.

You Metro lovers are obsessed with being right. It's one of the most bizarre phenomena I've seen in some time - especially with the MS crowd, which isn't typically associated with fanboy-ness. I read this site not to just bash 8, but to learn about other computer stuff - including the latest news on 8, even though I'm not using it. I like to stay informed - might want to try that some time and understand where people like me are coming from instead of insulting their intelligence with stuff like this:

Stating that the lack of a start menu with nested hierarchies makes Windows 8 unusable is inaccurate unless one can make the case in some other way than an opinion. If you need a start menu, then one can be installed.

I just called you out in a comment before you wrote that that saying someone is "irrational" for not like 8, and here you are again - except now I'm not irrational but inaccurate. What gives? I disagree with you, but show me when I called you wrong and irrational for your opinion?

You don't even know what we've been arguing. I'm laughing, honestly, because this kind of conversation happens repeatedly around here. Do you actually read anything we, the anti-8 crowd, put down? Because we're not hiding it. It's all over the place. I know where you're coming from, upside down and sideways. You do not know the other side nearly as well, because you aren't really interested in knowing. You're interested in being right. You think it's just about a Start button? Ummmmm, no. That's not entirely it. Part of it? Yes. But getting the start button back via 3rd-party software isn't enough for me to upgrade. Even if it were the only issue, it wouldn't be enough because the other improvements are marginal. But what do I know? I'm just a poor slob who's stuck in the past and afraid of touch technology.

Knowing what works for you is not the same as being right. It means you just know what works for you. And I've said this over and over to other people - I'm glad you like 8. Seriously. I don't try to convince you to not like 8. Would be nice if you showed the same respect to those with whom you disagree.

I'll reverse and spin this...

You say WE'RE so obsessed in being right all the time? Well then, you should look at the many naysayers of the past year on this here forums and tell me I'm obsessed in being right. Metro naysayers go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on about that metro won't ever work and it's awful and it's bland and no one will ever like it. Guess what, people are liking it? Guess what, people are open to new ideas? If it were up to the naysayers, technology wouldn't be anywhere what it is today. No one would have touchscreen phones, everyone would be using desktops and laptops wouldn't be common place. Everyone would be using the same traditional, aged methods of computing that will continue on and forever. It's almost like mac users, the UI hasn't changed in decades and it's a bland looking things, guess what, said naysayers would be fine with that. What's even more is how said naysayers say they're not resistant to change, but when you ask them about what they want changed, it's not UI changes so much it's just feature set changes. Don't break what's not broken, just improve it a bit. Then there's the touch discussions, uh hu, open to change are we? Naysayers always seem to have this better-art-thou attitude that THEY know what's best to do and how to do it, that going against that is blasphemy. No one is going to use the Start Screen because it's all up in your face and it has all these litters of tiles and these apps are so meaningless and I'm so confused why this is here and why do I have to learn what I already knew again and no one is going to buy tablets and no one in their right mind would use Windows 8 on the desktop and the only thing Microsoft should have done was to take Windows 7 and made it more efficient and charge people money for a more efficient Windows 7 when computing trends show otherwise and start menu should be an option and it's the end of the PC all these things were taken out and they never asked me what I wanted and they took out things I wanted but not many people want and all these hypothetical usage scenarios that try to prove a point but just goes to show how I think people should use computer and Windows.

Really?

Just thought I should air that out....

 

[Colonel Travis]

I also love how apparently, to use a touchscreen with a desktop, YOU HAVE TO WORK LIKE A ZOMBIE. That you will be extending your arms three to five feet away from you and it's so uncomfortable and it will never work and it's preposterous and it has no place.

Haha. Coke Brother, most everyone on the planet who works at a desk now uses a desktop. Reaching over that desk to touch the screen is a PITA for the time being, and there's no way around that for millions. I can't remember if you're a student or if you're a working slob like me, sorry, but I get the impression you're not chained to a desk and you're falling into that how come no one does it like me? trap again.

In the future, if someone develops a fancy pants touch system that kicks ass, it will be used. We aren't there yet. If you work like Tom Cruise in Minority Report, congrats. Wish I had that same technology.

Man, I don't know how many times I can put down - I want new stuff, I don't want to go backwards. Do you skip those parts?

 

[Arpan]

Do you actually read anything we, the anti-8 crowd, put down? Because we're not hiding it. It's all over the place. I know where you're coming from, upside down and sideways. You do not know the other side nearly as well, because you aren't really interested in knowing.

Ok, Travis. Why don't you start a thread with organised valid points that shows the circumstances where Windows 8 is incapable of doing something that any other version of Windows did more effectively or faster than W8? This will enlighten all of us (metro fans) about the "other side" because mostly what we hear from the anti-8 crowd are remarks like: The new start screen is horrible. The interface looks flat. It's bland. Windows 8 is a mess. Windows 8 is Vista 2.

But there are no explanation of those remarks.

Can you give us links to threads in this forum where it has been logically established that 8 is incapable of doing anything ?????

We all metro lovers agree that there is room for improvement, there are things which could have been done a bit different way but those things will be implemented in service packs or the next version of Windows.


C'mon Colonel, start a thread and prove what 8 is incapable of.

 

[Colonel Travis]

Arpan - instead of me starting a thread that adds absolutely nothing to what's been said already, you should read what's been posted. You could start with probably the most popular thread in the entire site besides - Welcome Eight Forums. Title speaks volumes.

This will be Microsofts biggest ever flop, far bigger than Vista.

There are other posts that go into great, critical detail. Most this stuff was written before you joined here, just do a search.

 

[Arpan]

Travis my friend, it doesn't mean that I haven't read anything that was posted before I joined. I've read most of those stuff and sadly enough, most part of those has been members hitting out at each other rather than valid arguments. As I've stated, give us links to "posts" which talks about a particular task that couldn't be achieved in 8 but could be achieved faster & easier in any other version of Windows.

 

[Mustang]

@ Arpan. This might give you a clue: Click #45. So you're saying it's quicker to find a sub-menu item that is not included in your shortcuts or items pinned to task bar ... and it's impossible to include them all ... by leaving the desktop to find it in Metro tiles rather than stay on the desktop and find it in the alpha-numeric start menu? Gimme a break! Who wants to look thro whatever number of full screens of tiles rather than a menu that occupies 8% of your desktop?

44 desktop shortcut icons, equivalent to small tiles, occupy less than 17% of my desktop.

Metro tiles = how many full screens of a 24 inch wide screen? Mega!

In short, you're saying it's equally or more efficient to leave the desktop completely and return periodically than to be able to do everything from the desktop in one integrated smooth flow?

What I would like to see is someone who dislikes 8 with no orb say, I don't care for it, but I can make this work, it is different, but I can manage.

Yes, it's true you can manage to do everything on W8 that can be done on W7. But the thread asks:

• Was it right to remove the start menu? ... not whether you can manage or not!

And in terms of using W8 for smartfone/tablet I'd say yes.

But in terms of using a desktop tower, absolutely not.

So why not have both?

While it is possible to restore the Orb/Start Menu, the real question is:

• Why was it necessary for MS to remove it?
• What harm was it doing?
• What adavantage was gained by removing it? Except to force the use of Metro. Please explain!
• W8 is a single platform designed for all devices - desktop, smartfone, tablet, etc. So why not include this feature for the desktop mode?

Perhaps the second last question could be answred by starting with: By removing the Orb Start Menu, Wiindows is made more efficient by ...

It's not even a case of how easy it is to restore with 3rd party software, but rather, why should MS create this need for desktop users when it cost them nothing but a few lines of script to leave it there? Surely they owed at least that much to their legion of traditional desktop supporters.

 

[Kat]

I use the Start Orb, Quick-Launch AND the Start Screen.

I missed the Start menu, so use Classic Shell (thanks, Ivo

But, when going back to Win 7, Vista or XP, I do miss the Start Screen.

AND the 'guts' menu....

Go figure.

Oh, and I seem to be able to run 8 just fine with a mouse
and find it to be just as productive as 7.

And I was, initially, totally against Win 8, but forced myself
to learn it, now I quite like it (apart from the lack of 'glass').

My main worry now is the push to the 'cloud', and the inexorable
drift towards a 'closed' system. THAT, I don't like.....


However, that's just my opinion.