Solved Let's stop moaning

[Barman58]

Just one point I should remind everyone, EightForums is not in any way connected to or sanctioned by Microsoft

Our independence does mean that the views stated here may be more wide ranging than on an official Microsoft site, however we do have rules that need to be heeded. So far the tone of this thread has been within our rules and so the thread is still open, any deviation from acceptable behaviour will mean the closure of the thread and possible action against the instigators

Although some Microsoft personnel may read these forums the only way to truly ensure that any dissatisfaction is registered is by the direct channels available to Technet & MSDN subscribers, for the RTM or the feedback options available with the preview versions.

To be honest, I think there is no likelihood of Microsoft dropping the Metro Interface so if we as users decide to use windows 8 we will have to adapt to either use it or look to 3rd party options to make it work more like Win7 or whatever, or to stay with windows 7 which is less than half way through it's planned lifetime.

Microsoft has performed exhaustive research on what people want for the future and have decided that Metro is the way to go, time will tell if they are correct in this. I know I will have to support Windows 8, in the future, on clients systems, so I will work to understand what is possible what is not. and what may be adapted, this will be, as always with a new OS, an interesting journey

 

[CB]

Agree.
What is written at the bottom of every page of the threads always remind me that.

I see the forum is for support. Supporting members those are having trouble with Windows 8. including doing any possible workaround to meet their preferences.

Surely not to make them blindly like it.

 

[jeffrys]

"I think it's probably the best Windows since Windows 2000"

Wel Barman I never used XP, but Windows 2000 instead and I disagree here : Windows 2000 was not so bad, but Win8 just beats them all.

Jeff

 

[jeffrys]

Come on Mustang:

"We could start a thread entitled: "Why don't the supporters of W8 stop moaning and whinging at persons who don't like W8?' And they should also stop denigrating us for disagreeing."

Disagree here myself, it has until recently always been the other way around.

So some guys may bash MS and his fans, but he who likes Win8 may not say a thing.

But everyone has a choice here: nobody is forced to use Win8.

I get the feeling that some Win8 users, just use Win8 to, again and again make their complains about how bad it is.
It is not bad, it is different than what one is used too. Desktop and Metro go well together.

Sometimes my screen is so full (because I have to compare things) that I cannot open a folder. As you know there is only room for about 10 folders in explorer, which is a pain for me.

Thank god there is Metro. When my screen is occupied and I cannot open what I want or when something is not on the taskbar, I go to the Metro.



Jeff

 

[Mustang]

It is not bad, it is different than what one is used too. Desktop and Metro go well together.

Jeff

I respect your right to your opinion, but sorry, as you will no doubt expect, I have to disagree.

It is different, and the differences are mostly bad.

However, as it's been said before, time and consumer reaction will tell the final story.

But once again we're off topic, which is whether the pros and cons should be debated any further; and only solutions/tips for solving problems and help in using it should be posted.

And you know how I feel about that.

 

[Barman58]

Jeff, I was actually complimenting win2000 , at the time of it's release I was involved with infrastructure for industrial PC Network systems, and after the "Fun & Games" involved in setting up some NT4 Server / Client systems, with Real Time data acquisition. It was robust, stable and with a Clean UI.

Industrial users loved it because the UI did not distract the operators from the work in hand, when used in office environments the same applied.

Obviously eye candy is almost essential these days, (Apple would not be the apple of today if someone had not chosen to make the ipod Ear buds White),

but functionality is as important, what we as early adopters should be interested in is not that it looks different than things before but if it's easier to use for the Average Mainstream computer user. We on this and other forums, and in the computer media are not the people that Microsoft want to attract, we are minority users, in the whole userbase.

windows users are now used to placing the mouse in the lower left corner and selecting from a set of icons that appear, just what metro does,

where metro may score with the Smartphone generation and businesses is the live apps, ( tiles ), and the store. The general PC user now understands these concepts, and they can handle installation themselves,

they do not care one bit about how it happens, just that it happens.

Yes vista and win7 had gadgets but the method to browse and add these to your working environment was not simple for a non technical user

 

[Fredledingue]

Overall they needed more time to think or whoever worked on the desktop needed to create a better experience and interface.

No they don't need time or thinking: All the solutions, simple, obvious solutions, have been posted on their blog and on several forums. They couldn't have ignored them. But I believe that they will be forced one day or another to implement these solutions. That may take time.

I remember XP

I don't think one can compare what happens now with the reactions when XP and Vista were released because what Micorsoft throws at our face with Metro is unprecedented. Things will go well beyond complaining here. It's not about some changes that we like or we don't like, it's not just that they added Metro on top of Windows. No, no ,no! The problem is what Microsoft wants. They want to kill Windows and replace it by Metro Apps (or something of that effect). W8 is only the beginning of a new trend (Microsoft told us that many times). It's the beginning of total metrofication, I'm afraid. What's next? maybe in W9 they wil remove the desktop? Access to system files? Folder trees? We ought to defend ourself against that.

 

[CB]

The problem is what Microsoft wants. They want to kill Windows and replace it by Metro Apps (or something of that effect). W8 is only the beginning of a new trend (Microsoft told us that many times). It's the beginning of total metrofication, I'm afraid. What's next? maybe in W9 they wil remove the desktop? Access to system files? Folder trees? We ought to defend ourself against that.

That's interesting..!
Yeah, how about (if) in the future, Microsoft OS users are treated being like a cellphone or smartphone users who can just do minor changes to the gadget? Just able to reach some superficial parts of the system. All we can do is download and install apps we need from the apps store.
Playing around only with changing themes.

Kevin

 

[SIW2]

Yes Kev,

There is a concern that may be where MS is heading.

 

[CB]

Let's get a bit wild imagination.

If in case MS OSes turn to be some kinds of gadget software, there should be a way to integrate the real gadget "desktop software" somewhere in our PCs like Blackberry desk soft, android desk apps store, Samsung KIES, Apple iPhones, and many more of them.
The good news is the OS should be available for only U$10. No need for serial keys or any licenses.

You know, Just trying to be positively thinkin' here.

Kevin

 

[Mustang]

Off topic: Nobody else seems to care about being off-topic so I might as well join the gold rush!

With Win7 I have:

• For quick access: 42 desktop shortcuts for my most used programs; which includes ones to USB external HDs, eSATA HDs, Storage partition on main HD and optical drives. They occupy about 20% max of availabe space using full HD resolution and small icons. And are arragned in four groups.
• For periodic access: 8 short cuts pinned to Start Menu jump list.
• For infrequent items: Legacy start menu with over 300 items counting main menu, sub-menu and sub-sub-menu. And I want all of these items.

This gives me everything Metro has to offer except apps, which I don't want.

And allows me to perform every operation I need to do without ever having to leave the desktop. With 24 inch wide screen I sometimes have up to 4 or 5 windows open at any given time, which may include word, excel, publisher, IE, etc. And with full HD res they are small enough to easily inter-navigate in order to create, copy/paste, drag/drop, store, move, edit, access iNet, etc.

What's so important about not having to leave the desktop?

It strikes me as pure insanity to have to leave the desktop, and scrol, scroll, scroll through those 300 items spread across God knows how many windows as tiles, in order to access the one odd item in a sub-menu or sub-sub-menu. Then, when I have found it, come back to the desktop and need to re-orientate to where everything is. And believe it or not, that is important when you have a heap of windows open at the same time. And then having to do this every time I need one of those items.

Maybe I'm a bit thick, but to me it's a no brainer! How hard is it to find a letter in an alphabetical list and click it? And without losing you're orientation to the desktop; and having the ability to have 3, 4, 5 or more sub-menus open at the same time if need be.

Sure I can spend hours organizing Metro tiles, using Classic Shell, etc, etc. But why would I want to do this when it's all laid out for me in alphabetical order in a legacy start menu as per Win7?

My beefs with M$ are:

• Metro is summarily forced on the user to promote their apps.
• Why they haven't either provided an alternative version of W8 for desktop; or switches to by-pass Metro and include a legacy start menu.
• Or at minimum, include the improvements in W8 OS in a SP for W7.

By all means feel free to critically appraise my logic. And call me inflexible if you want. But my point of view on this is set in concrete.

So the question then becomes: What to do if M$ persist in the tablet/smartfone GUI over the long term?

To me that would be a real shame as I prefer to stick with M$. So my choices are:

• Get the better performance of W8 by using work arounds. Maybe as tinker toy on other PC?
• Stick with W7 for as long as it's supported. Probably the most likely.
• Hope that another player enters the desktop market with the features I desire. Crystal ball stuff!

 

[iforgot]

Off topic: Nobody else seems to care about being off-topic so I might as well join the gold rush!

With Win7 I have:

• For quick access: 42 desktop shortcuts for my most used programs; which includes ones to USB external HDs, eSATA HDs, Storage partition on main HD and optical drives. They occupy about 20% max of availabe space using full HD resolution and small icons. And are arragned in four groups.
• For periodic access: 8 short cuts pinned to Start Menu jump list.
• For infrequent items: Legacy start menu with over 300 items counting main menu, sub-menu and sub-sub-menu. And I want all of these items.

This gives me everything Metro has to offer except apps, which I don't want.

And allows me to perform every operation I need to do without ever having to leave the desktop. With 24 inch wide screen I sometimes have up to 4 or 5 windows open at any given time, which may include word, excel, publisher, IE, etc. And with full HD res they are small enough to easily inter-navigate in order to create, copy/paste, drag/drop, store, move, edit, access iNet, etc.

What's so important about not having to leave the desktop?

It strikes me as pure insanity to have to leave the desktop, and scrol, scroll, scroll through those 300 items spread across God knows how many windows as tiles, in order to access the one odd item in a sub-menu or sub-sub-menu. Then, when I have found it, come back to the desktop and need to re-orientate to where everything is. And believe it or not, that is important when you have a heap of windows open at the same time. And then having to do this every time I need one of those items.

Maybe I'm a bit thick, but to me it's a no brainer! How hard is it to find a letter in an alphabetical list and click it? And without losing you're orientation to the desktop; and having the ability to have 3, 4, 5 or more sub-menus open at the same time if need be.

Sure I can spend hours organizing Metro tiles, using Classic Shell, etc, etc. But why would I want to do this when it's all laid out for me in alphabetical order in a legacy start menu as per Win7?

My beefs with M$ are:

• Metro is summarily forced on the user to promote their apps.
• Why they haven't either provided an alternative version of W8 for desktop; or switches to by-pass Metro and include a legacy start menu.
• Or at minimum, include the improvements in W8 OS in a SP for W7.

By all means feel free to critically appraise my logic. And call me inflexible if you want. But my point of view on this is set in concrete.

So the question then becomes: What to do if M$ persist in the tablet/smartfone GUI over the long term?

To me that would be a real shame as I prefer to stick with M$. So my choices are:

• Get the better performance of W8 by using work arounds. Maybe as tinker toy on other PC?
• Stick with W7 for as long as it's supported. Probably the most likely.
• Hope that another player enters the desktop market with the features I desire. Crystal ball stuff!

simple
Then don't use Win8

 

[Mustang]

simple
Then don't use Win8

Covered that in my post ... not using it.

Stick with W7 for as long as it's supported. Probably the most likely.

But would like to use it if M$ came to the party which apparently ain't gonna happen. Therein lies the dilemma. And why I listed my beefs with M$ and my possible options.

 

[iforgot]

simple
Then don't use Win8

Covered that in my post ... not using it.

Stick with W7 for as long as it's supported. Probably the most likely.

But would like to use it if M$ came to the party which apparently ain't gonna happen. Therein lies the dilemma. And why I listed my beefs with M$ and my possible options.

Sorry Mustang
I shouldn't really leave a short answer like that.... but
I couldn't resist

I can't see M$ stopping win7 for a far while,,,,, There's a lot of companies out there still using XP..

As I see it.
M$ wants the same action as the Fruit Company..
Being, pay all the time.
They've been pushing the cloud for a far while now also, same reason, pay all the time.

As there are so many M$ corporate users out there, they cannot shoot themself in the foot and say this is it, the old windows are out, no more, finito..
Their business structure would collapse, not to mention the companies around the world already locked into M$ .

Win8 is where M$ wants to go.

It will take time for the change to happen

In the meantime I'll be using win7/Linux.
And the only reason for my win7 is that's my work is backward and still using M$

 

[lehnerus2000]

Got me there, lehnerus. If I am thinking about the same feature to which you refer? You mean that "advanced options" if you used a Windows (7) basic theme?

Yes that's what I was referring to.

BTW, it's not limited to the Basic themes (I'm using a modified Aero theme).

 

[iforgot]

Mustang

There has to be reasons to upgrade to the next O/S version.

Whether it's hardware support or some application functionality, otherwise why change?
Just because it's new doesn't mean it's better......
ie M$ always wait for the first service pack release......

Or is it just for a prettier GUI

 

[Mustang]

Mustang

There has to be reasons to upgrade to the next O/S version.

Whether it's hardware support or some application functionality, otherwise why change?
Just because it's new doesn't mean it's better......
ie M$ always wait for the first service pack release......

Or is it just for a prettier GUI

Yeah, agree. Soz if a bit short in my previous reply and thanks for input.

I've always bought the next version of Windows from 98 thro to 7 except for Millenium. Currently got Vista on backup machine and with all updates and correct drivers and good CUP/mobo plus SATA3 SSD HD it runs very well ... not far behind 7 on a better machine. I've kept Vista because I never felt I'd got my money's worth out of it. Mainly wanted 8 for improved OS and also to keep up to speed. But you're right. In the past I've always waited until SP1 before buying.

Cheers M :thumb:

 

[iforgot]

Mustang

There has to be reasons to upgrade to the next O/S version.

Whether it's hardware support or some application functionality, otherwise why change?
Just because it's new doesn't mean it's better......
ie M$ always wait for the first service pack release......

Or is it just for a prettier GUI

Yeah, agree. Soz if a bit short in my previous reply and thanks for input.

I've always bought the next version of Windows from 98 thro to 7 except for Millenium. Currently got Vista on backup machine and with all updates and correct drivers and good CUP/mobo plus SATA3 SSD HD it runs very well ... not far behind 7 on a better machine. I've kept Vista because I never felt I'd got my money's worth out of it. Mainly wanted 8 for improved OS and also to keep up to speed. But you're right. In the past I've always waited until SP1 before buying.

Cheers M :thumb:

On the vista pc, just turn most of the services off at startup.
Not disable, just start when needed, same as win7 does.

Not sure were Win8 is up to on this.
What the kernel version of Win8?

 

[Barman58]

{Snip}
With Win7 I have:

• For quick access: 42 desktop shortcuts for my most used programs; which includes ones to USB external HDs, eSATA HDs, Storage partition on main HD and optical drives. They occupy about 20% max of availabe space using full HD resolution and small icons. And are arragned in four groups.
• For periodic access: 8 short cuts pinned to Start Menu jump list.
• For infrequent items: Legacy start menu with over 300 items counting main menu, sub-menu and sub-sub-menu. And I want all of these items.

This gives me everything Metro has to offer except apps, which I don't want. {/Snip}

(Mustang, this post is not a dig at you but your post does actually help me illustrate my thoughts )

I can fully understand this but you would have to admit that this requirement is atypical for the vast majority of PC users, (and I include the small minority of non Wintel users here).

The vast majority of PC users probably use no more then half a dozen applications, a browser, a photo app, video player, music player, something to write letters with, and in the case of business users, an application or two to perform their work with, most users don't even use an email application any more, (I, myself, used to be an avid user of either Thunderbird or Outlook, but now find my Smartphone and browser do the job just as well).

OK if we assume the majority to be 95% of all users, (take away non Wintel users, so that's 95% then ), who, By the way will also never perform an upgrade to their operating system, this has to be the design target market for Microsoft, not the 5% of professionals and specialists.

If we take a look at the Metro interface from the view of one of the majority, what does it give us?

A simple interface that, follows the same operating concept as the one on my smart phone and tablet, (maybe not exactly the same unless Microsoft Phone and Surface take off, but close enough), It has simple access to do all the things I do on my computer, (all six of them ), I have live tiles when I switch on that show me what's happening in my world, and it does all those strange backing-up and geeky things for me.

Looks more attractive now?

No the metro interface is not ideal for us geeks, But, it probably is for the majority, which is where Microsoft makes it's money, and I do not think that is a bad thing, Microsoft are a Business not a Charity, why shouldn't they try to make as much money as possible?

Is Microsoft aware that the Void due to the shortcomings of Metro for the specialist user will be filled by 3rd parties, of course they are, and already I could if I wish run Windows 8 as if it were Windows 7 from a look and feel view, with a lot of the deeper tasks in a look and feel of XP if I really wanted to.

Us specialists, the Pros, Enthusiasts, or just geeks, are never the target audience for a new OS, we have to learn to live with it.

Personally the jury is still out with regards to Metro, but I'll, evaluate it, learn it, and eventually support it, as I have with so many operating systems before

 

[Mustang]

Thanks for the input Barman. I can see the logic of you post, and certainly don't begrudge M$ as a busines to seek the market that brings in the greatest return ... they'd be crazy not to.

However, why do they refuse to provide switches for direct boot to desktop and legacy start menu for geeks, etc? It's a simple thing to do. And surely something they wouldn't begrudge their loyal army of supporters over the past few decades. But not only did they not provide it, they proactively blocked the early regedits to provide direct access to desktop. That seems very mean spirited to me.

No doubt the multitude of persons familiar with smartfones will have no problem adapting to and using the Metro start menu. But I would seriously question the efficacy of that with businesses, government offices, educational facilities, defence/police forces, and a multitude of others who are accustomed to and want/need a traditional desktop ... especially a start menu. IMHO there will be a huge outcry at the loss of this, which will not be heard until it's gone.

Anyhoo, as has alredy been stated, time and the consumers will be the final judge. And yes, it's true my rig is atypical with extreme mobo/cpu (12 threads), 3 GTX graphic cards SLI bridged, 12GB RAM, and SATA3 SSD HD. But with that setup I don't really see any significant degree of speed increase with W8 over W7, if any. So I will continue to use W7, at least for my main OS, until I'm forced to upgrade, or a SP comes out which gives the desired options in W8.

I'm open minded but for my purposes can't see a better setup than I already have with W7.