Final thoughts on Windows 8: A design disaster

[h=1]

Final thoughts on Windows 8: A design disaster[/h]By Adrian Kingsley-Hughes
June 7, 2012, 8:59am PDT

Summary: The biggest problem with Windows 8 is that it wasn’t born out of a need or demand. Its design failures, particularly with ‘Metro UI’ will likely be its downfall. Here’s why.

A week ago, Microsoft delivered the Windows 8 Release Preview, the final pre-release of the platform before the forthcoming operating system hits the release-to-manufacturing stage. OEMs get their hands on the final code at this stage, followed by Windows 8’s general availability where it’s available to us all.

I’ve been following Windows 8 closely over the past few months, spending a lot of time not only with the official releases but also with a number of leaked builds, and I’ve had the chance to install the operating system on a variety of hardware platforms, both old and new. However, since my primary working platform is a desktop system, this is where I’ve had the chance to spend the most time with Microsoft’s new operating system.

I’m now ready to sum up my Windows 8 experience with a single word: awful.

more

The Developer Preview failed to install here on any VM. Likewise the RP refused to go on a VM as well while the CP went on two different releases of VM Player without a hitch except no internet connection on one VM Player release(Dec. 2011) but would connect on the later(Feb. 2012). Besides those two issues that last line would seem to sum things up on how many feel about where MS is going!

 

[BillWindows]

I don't know about some of you guys, a few years ago I would have called myself a real power user, I would have easily had over 200 programmes and Utilities. I ran all kinds of Quick launch apps and pinned progs to the task bar, but in all my life, I've never ever felt the need to pin 50 progs or more to any task bar or quick launch bar. Doesn't that defet the purpose of quick launch, at the most I would have ever had would be 15.
All I can say is you guys must have the best memories on the planet to be able to remember so many icons and what they do, and I thought DOS was tough. Now I know why you hate Metro.

 

[Night Hawk]

Here the process is simple. Each addon bar is for a different purpose as far as what goes in it. The Quick Bar has different browsers and other things like Paint, PaintNet, a shortcut for the calculator and NotePad, iso create and burn or write programs, and is the quick launch for VMs as well as the XP Mode which does run on 8 but on the VMware Lite Workstation only.

For the next bar system functions on the opposite side of the items pinned to hold varions shortcuts like services, power plan, Disk Management, etc. rather then digging for each one with repeat trips into the Start search or Control Panel. The next is for various utilities which may only be an executable in a folder like ProcMon or GPU-Z. The last two have the interesting names of "Area 51" and "Area 52" one being for various titles with the other strictly for add on mods(Partial or complete 3rd party developer missions) created by those eventually hired on by VALVe/Steam.

Would you want to see some 80 or more desktop shortcuts to go through or organize by a simple right click option to select a folder ont the drive that hold numerous shortcuts? It certainly saves time not clicking on the Start>programs as well as not cluttering up the task bar either.

If you think repeat trips to the Start>Programs is annoying what about repeat trips to the Start screen and then needing to scroll through different screens each time to find what you want? \Go to the bottom corner, wait for the Start popup, click on the popup, scroll how many screens?

That depends of course on how many things are pinned there by installers or you, and then repeat each step multiple times with a gui that requires "extra steps" to begin with compared to any previous version. The quick launch type tool bars on the other hand simplify things by not having everything on an endless screen or one menu extending out across the screen as it grows in size.

But the next user then comes along and says: "I prefer something else!" where no one can dispute individual preferences. The Metro on the other hand doesn't offer any real choice except to create a new catagory there for any group of items.

And as for businesses not planning to rush at each new version it's not only installing a new Windows but the need to redo all softwares as well as the expense of new machines. They tend to upgrade things only when their businesses need to upgrade out of necessity not how old something is. Otherwise it's "business as usual" being the bottom line there.

 

[crawfish]

That's simply due to stretching the taskbar and tossing everything onto it. The toolbar method on the other hand separate things by catagory here.

You didn't read the message I linked to, nor the message I posted earlier, or you just aren't understanding any of it. I don't know how to speak any more plainly. I gave a screenshot and explained in excruciating detail how I keep my most used programs pinned to the taskbar, while for less frequently used programs, I put folder shortcuts in another area of the taskbar, and I use them instead of toolbars, and again, I explained why, though it's essentially the same thing, "separating things by category". In the message I linked to, which I wrote 3 months ago, I explained that I keep related programs grouped together. Here's part of what I wrote:

I've got around 50 programs pinned to the taskbar with room left for 5 transient programs. They are grouped by purpose, with all the multimedia viewing programs together, office programs together, etc. To the right of the pinned icons, there are 12 folder shortcuts. The top six contain additional shortcuts for infrequently used programs that I copied from the Start Menu using drag and drop. The bottom six are for frequently accessed file folders.

Here I keep icons on the taskbar small as well to allow for more viewing area.

Doesn't using RocketDock plus the taskbar make that pretty much moot? In any case, the "small icon" argument is something I've also addressed several times, including pre-emptively in the message I linked to. More recently, I noted that increasing the size of my taskbar did not turn any document from non-scrolling to scrolling, and it hasn't been any kind of impediment. Like I've said several times, I'm a software developer, who has put a premium on vertical space for decades, who was very resistant to increasing the size of the taskbar, and was surprised to find it worked out great, while still leaving me room for almost 50 lines of text in Visual Studio editor windows. If your taskbar is always visible, unless you're using a monitor with very limited vertical resolution, you may find it's OK to give up a little vertical space to simplify things and improve productivity. With large icons and a 1680x1050 monitor, I recently noted that a 1-row taskbar takes up 4% of the vertical resolution, and each additional row takes up another 4%. Just two rows would give you room for 30+ programs, with room left over for transient ones, and that's if you use 20% of the horizontal space for a single toolbar containing folder shortcuts like me. Get rid of that, and you could probably do 40+ programs.

 

[Night Hawk]

Doesn't using RocketDock plus the taskbar make that pretty much moot?

Not on a dual display set up where no pinned items are to be found on the extended Smart bar placed there either by UltraMon on 7 or DisplayFusion on 8. Plus that is set to auto hide itself over the taskbar on both screens being set to remain visible at all time unless running something full screen.

As for the addon quick launch bars those also automatically hide from view leaving no desktop clutter hanging around. That helps when going to take a snipping of something and not having any intrusions by task bars, desktop shortcuts, side bars, gadgets, etc.

 

[sparky1]

I will never use Windows 8. Metro is a curse as far as I'm concerned. MS have lost the plot.

 

[Night Hawk]

The Metro is an annoyance for most who simply are looking for a way to edit the batch file telling it to load at startup. It's not encoded into explorer.exe otherwise when clicking the desktop button the desktop would stall.

It would be more on the idea of the old Win.ini and Sys.ini files in the old legacy versions where finding the entry for Metro and editing that out of the startup would be what most want. But the idea of needing a 3rd party app for the Start>Program and shutdown options button was solved by jimbo45 using the Windows Power Shell.

What I am finding lately is a few other apparent problems proving 7 is still the better! When changing from Native iDE to AHCI in the bios setup following the latest clean install of both 7 and a Refresh PC move with 8 7 installed the OS drives fresh with a prompt to restart as expected in order to finish installing the other two storage/backup drives to complete the transition from ide to SCSI mode. 8 now refuses to load when trying to boot from the second drive!

Another clean install of the RP? or should I try another project I had in mind? hhhmmm.. all went well with 7 but 8... is revealing itself to be a little buggy still! 8 should have auto detected the change and adjusted the boot process to reinstall the OS drives like 7 did without issue if it has the improvements in that regard.

Another issue found is when the 8 Refresh automatically added 7 into the boot options and suddenly out of nowhere 8 started freezing up for no reason forcing the Refresh PC option which of course wipes itself clean of all programs packing things away in the Windows.old but not a repair install option by any means if you are trying to preserve the programs! Then while still booting into 7 from the 8 boot options 7 started freezing up as well.

The Disk Check tool used later once the 7 drive was reset as default cured the freeze ups right away. But when trying to boot into 8 when selecting that drive to see the same as well as remove the 7 boot entry it stalls. The best part is finding out what was revealed in the memory dump from the hard boot needed for 7 where the infamous "ntoskmi.exe" boot error came up!

The problem wasn't from 7 which had just seen a clean install but the boot from the 8 side leading to drive errors! Best advice for any 7/8 dual boot is two separate drives and each see a stand alone install and simply bring up the boot device menu to select the 8 drive in order to boot into 8. Or you can set the 8 drive as default and use the same for booting into 7 leaving both isolatied from each other!

 

[Mercurial]

tell me more about how many of those icons you actually click everyday ... thats the point of metro to simplify things not overkill your eyes.

 

[crawfish]

tell me more about how many of those icons you actually click everyday ... thats the point of metro to simplify things not overkill your eyes.

Please quote to indicate who you're talking to. If you're talking to me, I put the icons on my taskbar to simplify things, and they do a great job of that.

For some unfathomable reason, Microsoft thinks I'd like to use a full-screen modal Start Screen that contains fewer huge tiles that I didn't put there, including two that are partially off-screen and distractingly flip-flopping between a picture of Eric Holder and a headline and a picture of some hockey players and a headline. I find that as bizarre as it is presumptuous as it is useless. Even if I were to bother customizing this more to my liking, there would not be room enough to make it interesting without making the tiles even huger, and in the end, I'd still have a modal Start Screen that's difficult to navigate and takes me away from my Windows 7 taskbar where I have pinned all my main programs, where I have jump lists, progress indicators, window switching, etc. As for the other tiles, they lead to craptastic apps such as the Music app, which as I've noted before, has a partially off-screen ad for some hip-hop knucklehead I would never have on my computer, and is otherwise completely useless. The fail truly is hard to comprehend. It boggles the mind.

 

[Night Hawk]

If I took all of the shortcuts from just addon quick launch tool bar here and pinned them all onto the taskbar the taskbar would likely fill the entire screen!



That toolbar is strictly for utility programs like PowerISO or PC Wizard. Now just imagine combining all those that actually extend past the bottom of the desktop plus all from the other addon bars and dragged them onto the desktop. I would need a third or even fourth monitor just to reply back here!

Can you imagine how far I would need to scroll on the Metro?! "scroll scroll scrolling away each and every day!" yeah right!

With the previous install of 7 the number of programs installed was a bit staggering to say the least. When I say needing a 3rd or 4th monitor that will prove itself when I made up a screen to illustrate how busy the last 7 install was.



That should show right there why it would be nothing but total disaster to try and pin everything to the task bar or Start screen since it takes up more then what you would ever want to see for desktop shortcuts on a dual display setup. The addon bar serve to absorb the overflow of apps far easier!

That leaves the desktop free for other things as well as being kept organized when really having volumes of apps loaded on.



Now compare that to only a limited number of apps on the Start screen and try to imagine how all those would fit on the touchscreen Tablet PC orientated gui being passed off as a desktop OS.



If you could stretch that across multiple monitors it might be usable as long as you could shrink the size of the icons down considerably. But until MS decides to come up with another working desktop the word will simply be "improvise"!

 

[poppa bear]

The linked lead article by Adrian Kingsley-Hughes, and Post #89 by Night Hawk, really says it all.

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes: I’m now ready to sum up my Windows 8 experience with a single word: Awful!

more

"SCROLL, SCROLL, SCROLLING AWAY, each and every day!" yeah right!

But until MS decides to come up with another working desktop the word will simply be "IMPROVISE"!

The rest is purely academic until it's out there retail. Until then you'll just have to sweat on your bets, if you've laid money!

Nobody in either camp, for or against, wants to see Microsoft go down. Over the years, they have brought an international standard and stability to a chaotic computer world. On all continents, manufacturers of 3rd party apps & hardware, ISPs and government departments, tailor them to work on Windows.

And we've come to expect and rely on that, because they've always been the pace setter ... almost like a world wide government authority. Windows works wherever you are, from TimBukTu to Grand Central.

But if they go down, the benchmark will be lost and it will be a free-for-all state of anarchy.

Surely there's a lesson to be learned from the Firewire versus USB saga. Simply put, Firewire tried to make people pay for the privilege of doing things their way, instead of listening to their customers. USB was freely provided. And the rest is history.

 

[Night Hawk]

Usb at this time is the universal format for external devices of all types including charging up hand held devices like cell phones, smart phones, etc. At the present 7 still remains the champ of all versions to date since 8 is proving itself to be a totally different animal to work with.

As you dig deeper into the new OS you start to encounter problems you wouldn't see on 7! Changing from Native IDE mode in the bios setup to AHCI is one good example of how easy it was to trash the RP while 7 booted right up, prompted to restart as it was done with the two OS drives but needed to install the two storage/backup HDs. 8 simply stalled seeing the system restart on it's own when trying to boot back into 8 later.

Do not boot into 7 or other from the 8 boot options whether 8 picks the other up automatically on the fresh install or you decide to add a boot entry in for another version later with EasyBCD. For some reason the 7 drive will suddenly see the "ntoskmi.exe" error come up when 7 suddenly has freeze ups that lock the desktop forcing a hard boot! Leave the two versions totally isolated from each other is the rule of thought from the findings so far.

 

[poppa bear]

Leave the two versions totally isolated from each other is the rule of thought from the findings so far.

Without going into it at the depth you have, I found this from hands on trial and error right from the get go.

Over the years I have worked with multiple OSs on separate hard drives; and on one HD with multiple primary partitions; and have done quite a bit of research with corrupted/conflicting boot files, from Win98 onwards. I even managed to find a way to load XP first onto a single HD and add Win98 second, using third party boot menu software ... my humble claim to fame, because a techo from M$ told me it coudln't be done. M$ Aussie gave me two free $50 sessions with one of their techos because of a dispute I had with them over multiple activations necessary to do boot experiments on deliberately corrupted NTLDR boot files for multiple OSs. The only way to repair them was using the repair function from the install disc and DOS commands.

I did a little bit of work on BCD files in Vista for multiple OSs, using command line modifications, for adding/deleting/renaming/backing up; but stopped when I got hold of EasyBCD.

With Win8 I initially loaded the Enterprise version, (which I got off a free DVD included in the magazine Australian PC), onto a 2nd partition on my hard drive, and had endless BSODs. When I deleted the Win8 partition, as opposed to just formatting it, to remove the Win8 boot files, it also removed Win7 boot files. More fun and games. And I couldn't restore the boot files using the Win7 repair option from the installation disc.

From there I installed a 2nd HD, separate to main one with Win7 on it, and loaded Win8 on that. This created a linked boot menu at start up. More BSODs, and other various problems with Win7 OS. And when I unplugged the 2nd HD, the boot menu with Win8 on it still came up. I removed the Win8 entry using EasyBCD, but then Win7 would not boot; and couldn't repair the boot files with installation disc.

It was only a ten minute job to reload the full OS from an Acronis back up image, but didn't really give me any inside knowledge on what was going on.

Finally, the only way I found safe was to unplug the HD with Win7 on it, plug in a different HD by itself, and load Win8 on it. This way the two boot files were not linked, and either OS could be selected to boot from the BIOS at start up.

In fact I don't even need to go into the BIOS to get the OS I want. I've got a HD caddy on top of my PC, which makes it easy. If I plug the Win8 HD into caddy, BIOS auto sets it to boot Win8. If I remove the Win8 HD from the caddy, the BIOS auto detects Win7 as the only active HD and loads it.

 

[Night Hawk]

Once you nuked the boot entry with the EasyBCD tool you also nuked the default OS as well! You needed to set 7 as the default OS before removing the entry for 8 since you would have had to use the 8 Automatic repair option renamed from Startup repair in order to boot into 8 when adding an entry for 8 into the 7 BCD. Not good! Been there, done that already!

Once 8 was on after seeing the 7 host drive unplugged first since every install here is stand alone as far as working with Windows I first used EasyBCD to add in the 7 entry on 8. Later once 8 kept freezing up the Refresh PC option automaticlly added a new entry for 7 on it's own being the newer version as expected. I then reset 7 as default with EasyBCD until 7 started freezing up as well!

A good run of Check Disk with the /r switch saw 7 running well until changing from Native ide to AHCI on another day when suddenly 8 would no longer make it to the Lock screen. 7 on the other hand completed the changeover without a hitch.

Where you ran into the problem was not seeing the two isolated from the start simply custom installing 8 replacing the 7 BCD in the process. That wasn't the 7 BCD you were editing at all since the 8 installer had already replaced it for 8's!

The advantage of EasyBCD with the two previous versions of Vista and 7 is that the boot loaders are identical while 8 is slightly different being the newer out of all three is the fact you can have two stand alone installs on separate drives and still edit the boot loaders to add the other version in all three. The same was seen between Vista and 7 were you also used the Startup repair for 7 when custom installing with the BCD on one drive only.

 

[poppa bear]

The advantage of EasyBCD with the two previous versions of Vista and 7 is that the boot loaders are identical while 8 is slightly different.

Your various points are taken. I had figured most of it out later on after reading a tutorial entitled "Dual boot - Delete an OS" by whs --> here. However I hadn't tried switching the BIOS to native IDE. Mine was always in AHCI.

Putting everything else aside though, it's not a simple process as was between Vista and Win7.

 

[Dave76]

Haven't had any booting problems, have been booting Win7, the CP and then RP (after clean install) from the Win8 boot options.

Though haven't switched to IDE.

 

[poppa bear]

Haven't had any booting problems, have been booting Win7, the CP and then RP (after clean install) from the Win8 boot options.

Though haven't switched to IDE.

I would love to buy Win8, but refuse to buy an OS for desktop work that forces me to use a Tablet GUI. And which lacks a legacy start menu. And where it's necessary to use hacks or work arounds to get what I already have in Win7.

For this reason I have unistalled Win8 as there is no point wasting any more time working with the system.

Consequently I will not be testing any boot problems associated with runninig multiple OSs with it, on one or more hard drives. And in particular the effect of BIOS settings for IDE or AHCI.

I have Win7 BIOS set to AHCI as default, but it also boots fine with IDE; and in IDE mode auto installs drivers for SATA drives after boot up.

 

[Night Hawk]

I wasn't switching from AHCI to the Native ide mode but vice versa from Native to AHCI. W7 then did what it needed to set up the two OS drives as SCSI devices. That's essentially what the AHCI is.

The RP install on the second drive simply went belly up in the process. oops! No great loss!

I still have the RP on the latest version of VirtualBox anyways and now have a chance to run both 7 and 8 on another OS's version of VBox! I made a slight change of OS on the second OS drive since it had to be wiped anyways for another clean install of the OS(which one of course) that would go back on.

As far as the CPs and RPs I think the main reason why MS didn't bother requiring everyone to sign up first is to give everybody a look at the new Tablet PC gui while the actual retail might possibly? still hold a few surprises if MS is playing it smart for desktop users. Remember they like to "secretive" about what their final plans are for any final release whether the next version of Windows or one of their office products.

The latest reports point at a new hand held being made by someone else to compete with whatever other portables that come out. The DP, CP, and now RP simply toss the Metro at you and say: "What do you think of the new touchscreen Windows?!"

The set up and compatibility issues, amd day to day operations can be compared to going from Legacy to XP or XP to Vista in similar fashion where several changes are to be expected. The way 8 deals with changes like the bios setting change simply shows this to be fact in one form there indicating 8 will require a workaround for that type of problem if not simply a full clean install.

 

[poppa bear]

...while the actual retail might possibly? still hold a few surprises if MS is playing it smart for desktop users. Remember they like to "secretive" about what their final plans are for any final release whether the next version of Windows or one of their office products.

That's interesing! Guess we'll just have to wait and see, but here's hoping. :thumb:

Could be a very smart reverse psychology marketing ploy. Make all the desk-toppers hate the current format of Win8, so when final comes out with all the desired features, you'll get killed in the rush by all the desk-toppers lining up to buy it! Kills two birds with one stone! Not only promotes Tablet GUI but primes the desk-toppers for easy sales! Hmmmmmm? How far would they come back to satisfy?

I always buy retail OS, (and with Aussie $ running slightly better than USA $ at moment), to give you some idea of expected outlay for Win8 here in West Australia, Win7 retail cost $429 in January 2011. And that was best price at the time.

... A good run of Check Disk with the /r switch

What is the exact command line text you use to incorporate the /r repair switch when you run the CHKDSK command?

I usually run system file check on re-boot, with 'Repair' option ticked, from C:/ drive > Properties > Tools. Or Run box command: sfc /scannow.

 

[Night Hawk]

Simple at the command prompt you simply type "chkdsk /r" and press enter to schedule a run of the Check Disk tool. The "?r" is the repair switch added at the end.

The System File Checker won't help any for booting problems due to errors on the drive. That simply verifies system files and replaces any found pooched and may prompt for the Windows media if it needs to.

As far as pricing it was $419.99 here for 7 Ultimate and a week wait since retail outlets like an office supply store only place the retailt sleeves without media on the store shelves to prevent theft. They then send out the full retail package with disks by mail.