Windows 8 and 8.1 Forums


Removing Start for Windows 8 was the right thing to do

  1. #51


    Posts : 1,320
    Server 2012 / 8.0


    I am on this forum because I like the Windows 8. It would never occur to me to become a member of a forum of tutorials, support and discussion groups to make endless critical judgments. Opinions and personalities vary but from my point of view, I would not be on a forum for an OS that I dislike. It is illogical to me. Glad to be associated with metro. Removal of the start menu is the right thing to do for how Windows 8 technologies are designed. A lack of fitness for use is a general statement that, one could say, reduces the technology to an invalid status. It doesn't work properly. That is not a preference or a disagreement. One is declaring that the OS is without value. Or one might characterize the expected or current user of Windows 8 to be void of sophistication. The legacy start menu has played a significant role in the execution of Windows products for years. Windows 8 is not without a menu system, MS has adopted a new approach to how users can manage their computer. Discussion groups are fine, but my preference is to be positive and helpful. In order to be reasonable, one should typically supply a viable explanation as to why something doesn't work in more precise terms than it's ugly. If there are technical difficulties based on running 8 in a VM or as a dual or triple boot or with drivers that do not exist yet, then that would be evidence. Multi monitor issues, networking issues, user account issues, ... that is evidence of a problem that can or cannot be resolved. Stating that the lack of a start menu with nested hierarchies makes Windows 8 unusable is inaccurate unless one can make the case in some other way than an opinion. If you need a start menu, then one can be installed. Removal of the start menu is the right thing to do because a new vision of computing is in play and will be for sale starting Oct 26, 2012. I like this topic. What I would like to see is someone who dislikes 8 with no orb say, I don't care for it, but I can make this work, it is different, but I can manage.

    Click image for larger version

    For those that can't live without the Start Menu, see:
    Start Menu - Restore in Windows 8

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  2. #52


    Posts : 228
    Black Label 7x64


    mdmd, I gave my reasons - in detail - why I don't like 8 before you even joined this site. It's not my fault you don't know what they are, and they are no different than anyone else's who isn't a Metro fan.

    You Metro lovers are obsessed with being right. It's one of the most bizarre phenomena I've seen in some time - especially with the MS crowd, which isn't typically associated with fanboy-ness. I read this site not to just bash 8, but to learn about other computer stuff - including the latest news on 8, even though I'm not using it. I like to stay informed - might want to try that some time and understand where people like me are coming from instead of insulting their intelligence with stuff like this:

    Quote Originally Posted by mdmd View Post
    Stating that the lack of a start menu with nested hierarchies makes Windows 8 unusable is inaccurate unless one can make the case in some other way than an opinion. If you need a start menu, then one can be installed.
    I just called you out in a comment before you wrote that that saying someone is "irrational" for not like 8, and here you are again - except now I'm not irrational but inaccurate. What gives? I disagree with you, but show me when I called you wrong and irrational for your opinion?

    You don't even know what we've been arguing. I'm laughing, honestly, because this kind of conversation happens repeatedly around here. Do you actually read anything we, the anti-8 crowd, put down? Because we're not hiding it. It's all over the place. I know where you're coming from, upside down and sideways. You do not know the other side nearly as well, because you aren't really interested in knowing. You're interested in being right. You think it's just about a Start button? Ummmmm, no. That's not entirely it. Part of it? Yes. But getting the start button back via 3rd-party software isn't enough for me to upgrade. Even if it were the only issue, it wouldn't be enough because the other improvements are marginal. But what do I know? I'm just a poor slob who's stuck in the past and afraid of touch technology.

    Knowing what works for you is not the same as being right. It means you just know what works for you. And I've said this over and over to other people - I'm glad you like 8. Seriously. I don't try to convince you to not like 8. Would be nice if you showed the same respect to those with whom you disagree.
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  3. #53


    Posts : 5,707
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    I also love how apparently, to use a touchscreen with a desktop, YOU HAVE TO WORK LIKE A ZOMBIE. That you will be extending your arms three to five feet away from you and it's so uncomfortable and it will never work and it's preposterous and it has no place.

    OK.

    That's what will happen if you do it wrong, taking a new input device into a older traditional input scenario. The bigger picture is being lost here. We've adapted to input methods since DOS. We don't use DOS anymore, we don't use an OS where it's absolutely vital to use a keyboard to navigate. We use a GUI that needs a pointing device, like a mouse or stylus, to navigate. The point being is the different scenarios called for different adaption to input method. To say that to work with touch on a desktop or elsewhere requires hours of strain and zombie like posture would be just as well saying, "I have no idea how to work with touch and the only thing I can think of is using it like I have setup today." Not going to work.

    Gee, did people look like zombies when they penciled in spreadsheets or drew blue prints or wrote essays?...
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  4. #54


    Posts : 5,707
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Travis View Post
    mdmd, I gave my reasons - in detail - why I don't like 8 before you even joined this site. It's not my fault you don't know what they are, and they are no different than anyone else's who isn't a Metro fan.

    You Metro lovers are obsessed with being right. It's one of the most bizarre phenomena I've seen in some time - especially with the MS crowd, which isn't typically associated with fanboy-ness. I read this site not to just bash 8, but to learn about other computer stuff - including the latest news on 8, even though I'm not using it. I like to stay informed - might want to try that some time and understand where people like me are coming from instead of insulting their intelligence with stuff like this:

    Quote Originally Posted by mdmd View Post
    Stating that the lack of a start menu with nested hierarchies makes Windows 8 unusable is inaccurate unless one can make the case in some other way than an opinion. If you need a start menu, then one can be installed.
    I just called you out in a comment before you wrote that that saying someone is "irrational" for not like 8, and here you are again - except now I'm not irrational but inaccurate. What gives? I disagree with you, but show me when I called you wrong and irrational for your opinion?

    You don't even know what we've been arguing. I'm laughing, honestly, because this kind of conversation happens repeatedly around here. Do you actually read anything we, the anti-8 crowd, put down? Because we're not hiding it. It's all over the place. I know where you're coming from, upside down and sideways. You do not know the other side nearly as well, because you aren't really interested in knowing. You're interested in being right. You think it's just about a Start button? Ummmmm, no. That's not entirely it. Part of it? Yes. But getting the start button back via 3rd-party software isn't enough for me to upgrade. Even if it were the only issue, it wouldn't be enough because the other improvements are marginal. But what do I know? I'm just a poor slob who's stuck in the past and afraid of touch technology.

    Knowing what works for you is not the same as being right. It means you just know what works for you. And I've said this over and over to other people - I'm glad you like 8. Seriously. I don't try to convince you to not like 8. Would be nice if you showed the same respect to those with whom you disagree.
    I'll reverse and spin this...

    You say WE'RE so obsessed in being right all the time? Well then, you should look at the many naysayers of the past year on this here forums and tell me I'm obsessed in being right. Metro naysayers go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on about that metro won't ever work and it's awful and it's bland and no one will ever like it. Guess what, people are liking it? Guess what, people are open to new ideas? If it were up to the naysayers, technology wouldn't be anywhere what it is today. No one would have touchscreen phones, everyone would be using desktops and laptops wouldn't be common place. Everyone would be using the same traditional, aged methods of computing that will continue on and forever. It's almost like mac users, the UI hasn't changed in decades and it's a bland looking things, guess what, said naysayers would be fine with that. What's even more is how said naysayers say they're not resistant to change, but when you ask them about what they want changed, it's not UI changes so much it's just feature set changes. Don't break what's not broken, just improve it a bit. Then there's the touch discussions, uh hu, open to change are we? Naysayers always seem to have this better-art-thou attitude that THEY know what's best to do and how to do it, that going against that is blasphemy. No one is going to use the Start Screen because it's all up in your face and it has all these litters of tiles and these apps are so meaningless and I'm so confused why this is here and why do I have to learn what I already knew again and no one is going to buy tablets and no one in their right mind would use Windows 8 on the desktop and the only thing Microsoft should have done was to take Windows 7 and made it more efficient and charge people money for a more efficient Windows 7 when computing trends show otherwise and start menu should be an option and it's the end of the PC all these things were taken out and they never asked me what I wanted and they took out things I wanted but not many people want and all these hypothetical usage scenarios that try to prove a point but just goes to show how I think people should use computer and Windows.

    Really?

    Just thought I should air that out....
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  5. #55


    Posts : 228
    Black Label 7x64


    Quote Originally Posted by Coke Robot View Post
    I also love how apparently, to use a touchscreen with a desktop, YOU HAVE TO WORK LIKE A ZOMBIE. That you will be extending your arms three to five feet away from you and it's so uncomfortable and it will never work and it's preposterous and it has no place.
    Haha. Coke Brother, most everyone on the planet who works at a desk now uses a desktop. Reaching over that desk to touch the screen is a PITA for the time being, and there's no way around that for millions. I can't remember if you're a student or if you're a working slob like me, sorry, but I get the impression you're not chained to a desk and you're falling into that how come no one does it like me? trap again.

    In the future, if someone develops a fancy pants touch system that kicks ass, it will be used. We aren't there yet. If you work like Tom Cruise in Minority Report, congrats. Wish I had that same technology.

    Man, I don't know how many times I can put down - I want new stuff, I don't want to go backwards. Do you skip those parts?
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  6. #56


    India
    Posts : 1,184
    Windows 8.1, Windows 7, Linux Mint 14


    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Travis View Post
    Do you actually read anything we, the anti-8 crowd, put down? Because we're not hiding it. It's all over the place. I know where you're coming from, upside down and sideways. You do not know the other side nearly as well, because you aren't really interested in knowing.
    Ok, Travis. Why don't you start a thread with organised valid points that shows the circumstances where Windows 8 is incapable of doing something that any other version of Windows did more effectively or faster than W8? This will enlighten all of us (metro fans) about the "other side" because mostly what we hear from the anti-8 crowd are remarks like: The new start screen is horrible. The interface looks flat. It's bland. Windows 8 is a mess. Windows 8 is Vista 2.

    But there are no explanation of those remarks.

    Can you give us links to threads in this forum where it has been logically established that 8 is incapable of doing anything ?????

    We all metro lovers agree that there is room for improvement, there are things which could have been done a bit different way but those things will be implemented in service packs or the next version of Windows.


    C'mon Colonel, start a thread and prove what 8 is incapable of.
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  7. #57


    Posts : 228
    Black Label 7x64


    Arpan - instead of me starting a thread that adds absolutely nothing to what's been said already, you should read what's been posted. You could start with probably the most popular thread in the entire site besides - Welcome Eight Forums. Title speaks volumes.

    This will be Microsofts biggest ever flop, far bigger than Vista.

    There are other posts that go into great, critical detail. Most this stuff was written before you joined here, just do a search.
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  8. #58


    India
    Posts : 1,184
    Windows 8.1, Windows 7, Linux Mint 14


    Travis my friend, it doesn't mean that I haven't read anything that was posted before I joined. I've read most of those stuff and sadly enough, most part of those has been members hitting out at each other rather than valid arguments. As I've stated, give us links to "posts" which talks about a particular task that couldn't be achieved in 8 but could be achieved faster & easier in any other version of Windows.
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  9. #59


    Australia
    Posts : 716
    Windows 7 Ult Reatil & Win 8 Pro OEM


    @ Arpan. This might give you a clue: Click #45. So you're saying it's quicker to find a sub-menu item that is not included in your shortcuts or items pinned to task bar ... and it's impossible to include them all ... by leaving the desktop to find it in Metro tiles rather than stay on the desktop and find it in the alpha-numeric start menu? Gimme a break! Who wants to look thro whatever number of full screens of tiles rather than a menu that occupies 8% of your desktop?

    44 desktop shortcut icons, equivalent to small tiles, occupy less than 17% of my desktop.

    Metro tiles = how many full screens of a 24 inch wide screen? Mega!

    In short, you're saying it's equally or more efficient to leave the desktop completely and return periodically than to be able to do everything from the desktop in one integrated smooth flow?

    Quote Originally Posted by mdmd
    What I would like to see is someone who dislikes 8 with no orb say, I don't care for it, but I can make this work, it is different, but I can manage.
    Yes, it's true you can manage to do everything on W8 that can be done on W7. But the thread asks:

    • Was it right to remove the start menu? ... not whether you can manage or not!

    And in terms of using W8 for smartfone/tablet I'd say yes.

    But in terms of using a desktop tower, absolutely not.

    So why not have both?

    While it is possible to restore the Orb/Start Menu, the real question is:

    • Why was it necessary for MS to remove it?
    • What harm was it doing?
    • What adavantage was gained by removing it? Except to force the use of Metro. Please explain!
    • W8 is a single platform designed for all devices - desktop, smartfone, tablet, etc. So why not include this feature for the desktop mode?

    Perhaps the second last question could be answred by starting with: By removing the Orb Start Menu, Wiindows is made more efficient by ...

    It's not even a case of how easy it is to restore with 3rd party software, but rather, why should MS create this need for desktop users when it cost them nothing but a few lines of script to leave it there? Surely they owed at least that much to their legion of traditional desktop supporters.
    Last edited by Mustang; 23 Oct 2012 at 04:43.
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  10. #60


    Posts : 142
    Windows 8 Enterprise 64-bit (7 Ult, Vista & XP in V-Box)


    I use the Start Orb, Quick-Launch AND the Start Screen.

    I missed the Start menu, so use Classic Shell (thanks, Ivo:-)

    But, when going back to Win 7, Vista or XP, I do miss the Start Screen.

    AND the 'guts' menu....

    Go figure.

    Oh, and I seem to be able to run 8 just fine with a mouse
    and find it to be just as productive as 7.

    And I was, initially, totally against Win 8, but forced myself
    to learn it, now I quite like it (apart from the lack of 'glass').

    My main worry now is the push to the 'cloud', and the inexorable
    drift towards a 'closed' system. THAT, I don't like.....


    However, that's just my opinion.
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