Surface 2: Everything that's wrong with Microsoft's model

Microsoft on Sept. 23 will launch its Surface 2 and Surface 2 Pro devices---known around here as YAFS (yet another financial sinkhole)---and we're likely to see a refresh and some modest improvements. Let's give Microsoft props for its persistence, but the company's latest devices and services business model are a case of skating to the puck where it used to be and not where it's going.

Surface 2: Everything that's wrong with Microsoft's model | ZDNet

 

[Mystere]

He has not refuted that. He is saying people are less likely to buy it because of the poor app selection. Do you think they will buy it in the hope that in a year or two there will be a decent selection? I doubt it.

His entire premise is that RT is dead, and it just doesn't know it yet. You can't acknowledge that an app ecosystem will build over time if you are also predicting there won't be time for that ecosystem to develop.

Some people won't buy it because of the app selection, some people will be perfectly fine with the apps as they are now.

After all, you can't buy an iPad or Android device that has a real copy of Office, including a real copy of Outlook. That is a huge selling feature. How many college students (that aren't PC gamers) need anything more than Office, a Browser, and some apps like OneNote/Evernote (or other note apps) (Metro version), SkyDrive, Media Players, etc... Unless their in computer science and need to run a compiler and an IDE.

Regardless, at least 50% of the people I know never use anything more than a browser and office on a computer.

 

[jimbo45]

He has not refuted that. He is saying people are less likely to buy it because of the poor app selection. Do you think they will buy it in the hope that in a year or two there will be a decent selection? I doubt it.

His entire premise is that RT is dead, and it just doesn't know it yet. You can't acknowledge that an app ecosystem will build over time if you are also predicting there won't be time for that ecosystem to develop.

Some people won't buy it because of the app selection, some people will be perfectly fine with the apps as they are now.

After all, you can't buy an iPad or Android device that has a real copy of Office, including a real copy of Outlook. That is a huge selling feature. How many college students (that aren't PC gamers) need anything more than Office, a Browser, and some apps like OneNote/Evernote (or other note apps) (Metro version), SkyDrive, Media Players, etc... Unless their in computer science and need to run a compiler and an IDE.

Regardless, at least 50% of the people I know never use anything more than a browser and office on a computer.

Hi there
It's not whether they want Office or not it's whether the device is SENSIBLE or even practicable to use for office type Apps -- a 10 inch screen might just about cut it -- anything smaller - forget it --and certainly why use OFFICE RT which is bound to be an "Orphaned" version -- the whole RT system IMO won't last very long at all --why should it - there's little appetite for it and if I were a developer I'd certainly rather develop stuff for the "Proper Windows" or for Android.

Apple is another system completely so I won't involve that issue.

Cheers
jimnbo

 

[EMINENT]

Microsoft's Surface 2 shows why Windows RT will die

If you're looking for evidence why Windows RT won't be around for the long haul, just take a look at Microsoft's new Surface 2 tablet. It highlights everything wrong with RT, and points the way towards the operating system's eventual demise.

The Windows RT-based Surface 2 offers modest improvements over the original Surface, including a Tegra 4 1.7 gigahertz quad-core ARM chip that Microsoft says makes it 60% faster than the Surface RT's processor. There's also an improved screen, Dolby Digital sound, better cameras, and a better kickstand.
That's well and good. But the Surface 2 is still stuck not being able to run Desktop applications, because it's based on Windows RT, not Windows 8.1. So Surface 2 owners are limited to Microsoft's still-limited Windows 8 and Windows RT app ecosystm.

Microsoft's Surface 2 shows why Windows RT will die | Computerworld Blogs

Wow.. just.. wow.. Some "journalists" don't seem to quite understand things. To claim that the "Surface 2 is still stuck not being able to run Desktop applications" is ridiculous. Of course it can't, because it's a freaking ARM processor. It's not like Microsoft is artificially limiting the surface from running Windows desktop apps, they physically cannot run because they use a different instruction set.

If it could run desktop apps, by definition it then would not be an RT device.

It's like writing an article complaining that "the Amtrak train is still stuck operating on rails, and cannot drive around freely", and thus it is doomed to failure. Duh! If it could drive around freely, it wouldn't be a train... geez... The mere act of it running on rails makes it a train. So you're complaining about something being exactly what it's designed to be, and that it's not something else... that's just ridiculously silly.

The author still conveniently forgets that there are many people that just don't need to run desktop apps other than Office. All they need to do can be done with Office, a web browser, and the Windows 8.x Modern apps. These are the same people that buy iPads and Android tablets. They aren't running desktop apps on those either, yet somehow they manage to work just fine for them.

Some people have to stop looking at the Surface (not Surface Pro) through the eyes of a laptop user.

So true. Some people just don't get it. Lucky for them, they have $500, $600, $700 ipads they can buy instead.

My managers got ipads recently for work. You know what they're doing with them? RDP from their laptop. And when they go to meetings, they're on their laptops. To do what? Look at pdf's and Excel spreadsheets?

Are most people just clueless?

 

[Mystere]

It's not whether they want Office or not it's whether the device is SENSIBLE or even practicable to use for office type Apps -- a 10 inch screen might just about cut it -- anything smaller - forget it

The surface is 10.6", and it has a DisplayPort so you can hook it up to an external monitor if you want. Thus it becomes an extremely portable device that you can use like a desktop, or use like a tablet, or use like a netbook. You keep forgetting, the argument here is not whether or not a tablet is useful, it's whether or not the RT is. The public has spoken, tablets are in high demand. Many people use Pages on an iPad, or OpenOffice on an Android Tablet.

and certainly why use OFFICE RT which is bound to be an "Orphaned" version -- the whole RT system IMO won't last very long at all --why should it - there's little appetite for it and if I were a developer I'd certainly rather develop stuff for the "Proper Windows" or for Android.

And my opinion is that RT will be around for a long time to come. Microsoft is no stranger to this. Windows NT took almost 10 years to become commercially successful. The Xbox took 5 or 6 years. The Zune was around for a long time, only to be replaced by the Windows Phone 7. Just because a product is not a big seller doesn't mean Microsoft will drop it, because invariably it will lead to another product.

 

[BlueMasterFX]

Windows RT will most likely phase out if you think about it. I'm not sure why people say it will stay. It really has no future and Microsoft knows that mistake. Microsoft is currently trying to get people to use Windows Phone OS. Obviously they also want developers to create applications to attract mobile users and eat Android's and iOS market share. If Microsoft is smart enough, which most likely is in the works, they would port Windows Phone OS onto Microsoft Surface and kill Windows RT. That way, developing Windows Phone applications would be universal since both smartphones and tablets would seamlessly share the same OS. They just need to resize the app to take advantage of a bigger screen.

Of course it can also be the other way around. Windows RT will take over Windows Phone OS and both smartphones and tablets will run Windows RT.

But as you can see, having both makes no sense no matter how you look at it. The right move in my opinion would be to have a version of Surface to run Windows Phone OS. Then you stimulate development for just one mobile platform, not two. What was Microsoft thinking lol.

 

[SIW2]

After all, you can't buy an iPad or Android device that has a real copy of Office, including a real copy of Outlook. That is a huge selling feature.

Is it? The original Surface RT tablet thing had Office and didn't sell very well.

Perhaps MS is prepared to struggle on with it in the hope things will gradually pick up.

Not a very enticing prospect for the oems, though. They might have a punt on a few devices , given the expected advertising backup, the prospect of being included in the Best Buy Section, etc. However, I don't think they will bet the farm on it.

 

[djsigma]

I don't think RT is going anywhere. It's just the beginning for it. Saying "it has no future and Microsoft knows that mistake" has no basis in reality, given that they literally just announced a new RT tablet.

I think one of their biggest issues is marketing and branding. A lot of people are still confused over what RT actually is. Also, a lot of people are looking at the Surface Pro and thinking that it's just like an iPad, yet way more expensive, when it's actually more like an Ultrabook with a removable keyboard and it compares very favourably to those devices on price. The names "Windows", "Surface" and "Xbox" are great, but they need to make it more clear what these devices are and what category they fall into. Even if you take the name "Xbox", they should have used that as their term for "gaming". That's what people associate it with, yet they launched "Xbox Music" which has nothing to do with gaming at all.

I think their other issue is that they're still slow to roll out updates and improvements to existing devices. They were late to the market with Windows Phone. They were late to the market with Surface. If I was in charge of Windows Phone, I'd have said "what are the top 100 apps on iPhone and Android?" and I'd have thrown money at devs to make sure they were there from the beginning. People don't care if a platform has 500,000 apps. They care if the popular apps that they want to use are there.

But yeah, I think RT itself is fine. It has a lot of apps (but again, there are some notable omissions that need sorting out). It's fast and reliable. It's nice to use on a tablet. It offers more functionality than an iPad, while still being simple to use. It's not the core platform that's at fault IMO.

 

[SIW2]

I think one of their biggest issues is marketing and branding

Yes, that is one of the issues. I don't know why MS thought they could pitch up against against a premium branded product. It doesn't just happen, you have create that brand image.

 

[SIW2]

It's not whether they want Office or not it's whether the device is SENSIBLE or even practicable to use for office type Apps -- a 10 inch screen might just about cut it

I know a few post grad foreign students. (It costs them a fortune in fess and accommodation). They all use laptops for their university work. They have phones and the odd ipad as well for consumption purposes. They might not be keen on trying to do their University stuff on a ten incher.

 

[Kingskid]

Has anyone taken it for a test drive? If not give it a chance.

 

[Lee]

I find that people have forgotten the past. Back in 1987 I bought a Mac Plus. The plus came with a 9" screen. Now having said that a good deal of business and colleges along with some school system around the world did the same thing. (even Commander Scott used one to design transparent Aluminum). for almost a decade these along with the Mac II were used for just about anything and everything people needed them for, and with to many problems. Today's tablets are not all that different. Just add a Bluetooth keyboard and you have a fairly good computer (no not as good as a desktop powerhouse, or a well equipped laptop, albeit it will do the job if you have the correct apps installed. BTW, how many of you remember working on 10' CRT monitors with either white, yellow or green text.

 

[SIW2]

Maybe, but it is different now. The students I know are using 17 or 19 in screens. It could be that is much better for them than trying to do it on a 10 incher. If that is the case, it doesn't bode well for students buying the surface RT 2. They didn't buy the original surface RT thing, no particular reason for them to rush out en masse and buy the very slightly improved v2.

 

[Mystere]

You're forgetting, the Surface has a DisplayPort on it. You can plug it into a 17 or 19" screen for desktop use. Or, you can carry it around in your book bag, or purse, or man purse

The point is, it's highly portable and is a tablet when you need it to be a tablet, is a netbook when you need it to be a laptop, and a desktop when you need it to be a desktop (in terms of form factor, not "desktop apps" obviously, other than Office).

You can also plug in a USB hard disk and a USB keyboard if you want a full size keyboard and large storage. It plays movies, it plays music, it surfs the web, it runs office, and it runs all the metro apps.. some of which are quite useful like Skype, Evernote, OneNote, a version of Photoshop (Photoshop Express) for image manipulation... etc..

Also, you can't use a 19" monitor to in your lecture hall. You could use a notebook, but they're heavier, and just as expensive, and not capable of being a tablet.

By the way, I wouldn't call it "slightly" improved. 60% faster CPU, 25% more battery life, significantly better screen, etc... I got far less than 60% faster cpu when upgrading from my Core i7 920 to an i7 3770k, and spent a lot more money.

 

[SIW2]

I am not forgetting it.

Not sure if the students want to buy a surface rt and another monitor and possibly keyboard. They didn't go for the first iteration.

The point is, it's highly portable and is a tablet when you need it to be a tablet, is a netbook when you need it to be a laptop, and a desktop when you need it to be a desktop (in terms of form factor, not "desktop apps" obviously, other than Office).

That was the case with the first one - which they didn't buy.

Not clear to me why they would go for essentially the same thing now.

 

[Mystere]

Surface 1 only had low-res HDMI, and a 1366x768 native display. The Surface 2 has a 1920x1080 display with DisplayPort.

I'm not sure why you think a student would be more than happy to buy a Desktop (same price as a Surface) and a monitor, but would not want to buy a Surface and a monitor. If having a larger screen is so important, as you claim it is.. why would they not spend the exact same money and have the added bonus of being able to take their "desktop" with them wherever they go as a tablet?

The Surface 1's problems were primarily related to marketing and there were many of those problems. First, Microsoft only sold it through their brick and mortar stores for the first 6 months. Second, Microsoft did not do a good enough job of differentiating Windows 8 from RT, thus people did not know what to expect from it. Third, like many things related to 8, it got lots of bad mouthing from the so called "experts".

I gave my father a Surface RT when they went on sale. It works fine for him, since all he does is use the web, email, and play solitaire in his lazyboy while watching TV. Honestly, there are a ton of people that don't need legacy desktop app support, because they just don't use it. Yet they've been convinced they need it.

 

[mcnulty]

I gave my father a Surface RT when they went on sale. It works fine for him, since all he does is use the web, email, and play solitaire in his lazyboy while watching TV. Honestly, there are a ton of people that don't need legacy desktop app support, because they just don't use it. Yet they've been convinced they need it.

Yep. Those people are buying iPads.

 

[SIW2]

And android things. What is about the surface rt that might make a serious dent into those sales. ? Nothing as afar as I can see.

It doesn't look promising for MS.

 

[SIW2]

I'm not sure why you think a student would be more than happy to buy a Desktop (same price as a Surface)

I never mentioned desktops

 

[EMINENT]

I gave my father a Surface RT when they went on sale. It works fine for him, since all he does is use the web, email, and play solitaire in his lazyboy while watching TV. Honestly, there are a ton of people that don't need legacy desktop app support, because they just don't use it. Yet they've been convinced they need it.

Yep. Those people are buying iPads.

Yes. Because they don't know any better.

And android things. What is about the surface rt that might make a serious dent into those sales. ? Nothing as afar as I can see.

It doesn't look promising for MS.

Actually, it looks immensely promising and exciting!

Bay Trail tabs running full 8.1 are about to be had for less than $400. They're also going to be infinitely more useful than those silly toys. When the store is finally unified, you'll see why they stuck out with Surface as a PREMIUM mobile solution.

 

[4wd]

Yep. Those people are buying iPads.

Yes. Because they don't know any better.

These guys among the 'don't know any better' ? American Airlines Completes Electronic Flight Bag Implementation :: American Airlines Newsroom
Am no apple fan, just an example of these things being far more than toys, and a serious competition to MS.