Sorry, bringing back the Start menu won't help Windows 8

There are plenty of legitimate concerns about the Windows 8 interface. But if you think the removal of the Start menu is the root cause of those problems, you're mistaken. See for yourself.

Sorry, but bringing back the Start menu won't help Windows 8 | ZDNet

For what it's worth I mainly agree with him...

I wouldn't bring back the Start Menu, but I'd definitely bring back the concept of a single Taskbar that was always visible across the whole OS.

 

[amoled]

We have to wait till WBlinds comes out for 8 ...

 

[goodintentions]

And how many times does that happen that safe mode is needed?

If you are only sending emails and hanging-out on Farce-book, you should hardly ever need it.

But if you (for example) test and review a lot of programs, drivers etc, or if you like playing around
in the 'guts' of your hardware and software, then you will need it, and on a fairly regular basis
at that. It's very dependent on how you compute, and what you actually do.

Hiding it wasn't very bright, its total removal would border on foolhardiness.

As for the Start menu, I'm not really worried about whether they reintroduce it, I actually prefer
Classic Shell to MS' offering. But I do want to see Aero returned in full. I couldn't care less about
battery life, and shouldn't have to suffer to cater for those who do. They should be able to turn it
off if they wish, but I should not have to make sacrifices in order to cater to the wants and wishes
of the tablet/phone 'mob'.

Yet another option that should not have been 'dumbed-down', hidden or removed, IMO.


Wenda.

I do that but have the intelligence to use a VM to test software with BEFORE installing on my main system. And even then, that would need to be some serious lower level file tampering that software does to cause safe mode to be needed. That's a rarity. But if this is video drivers, NVIDIA's in my case I've seen with Windows 8, then maybe but again, pretty rare.

And then considering that there is such a niche group of people who do that, it wouldn't make sense to have EVERY new Windows 8 PC have to emulate traditional BIOS and sacrifice near instant start ups so someone can possibly try to enter safe mode after asking on a forum like this to how to get to it.

Aero is design taste. Not everyone likes it, much like the metro design on Windows. I don't think they should bring it back because once you hit the Start Screen, you WILL get the feeling of OS duality of old and new. You have shiny, transparent, 3D lighting perspective smashed with clean, crisp, and modern design. That is I bet the WHOLE reason why Aero was removed, they gave a true technical reason but honestly, Aero looks GOD awful with the rest of the UI from the Desktop Help files, to Office 2013, to the Start Screen and to the apps and everything else in between. Windows isn't based around the very small border around an open window. It is not. It is idiotic to have a product called Windows to showcase off what goes AROUND the window versus what is actual within it.

While I don't miss aero, I do remember aero haters blasting aero view on online forums.

 

[McRuff]

While I don't miss aero, I do remember aero haters blasting aero view on online forums.

I remember that to, but in those days Microsoft left in the classic theme for those who did not like aero.

 

[SIW2]

Yes, having looked at several of the pre release versions, and being aware of the feedback, I was expecting MS to include the existing navigation methods to attempt an orderly transition.

Mike put it rather more strongly, saying he feared MS may be about to shoot themselves badly in the foot. I don't work in IT marketing, but Mike was formerly head of platform marketing at Apple - so he knows better than I.

There had been a dip in pc sales in 2012 - largely ascribed to some people moving to portable devices. Expectations were for a drop of some 7% or so in 2013 Q1. Mac sales took a hit roughly around that at about 6%. Windows sales, however took a rather severe dive.

The oems have been hauling MS freight for years , shifting millions of different kinds of devices and different os for many years. They know what is going on the ground. It wasn't entirely surprising that many ( in fact, I think all ) the oems made it clear 8 had exacerbated the decline.

 

[Coke Robot]

Coke Robot wrote:

I do that but have the intelligence to use a VM to test software with BEFORE installing on my main system.

I do hope that you are not implying that I do not. :shock:

I do, and currently have quite a bit going on in VM's. I've used Virtual-Box for this purpose for quite some time now.

But others are not you, or me, and they do need Safe Mode considerably more often than you suggest. And it can
be essential when you're tasked with fixing someone else's machine.

As for Aero, I think we'll just have to 'agree to disagree' there. I like it, and want it back, but it's not worth
arguing over it here.

NB: This is not an attack, just a comment.

Cheers!


Wenda.

I'm not.

Some people DO NEED to learn however to virtualize. These days, hardware isn't a limitation anymore. Some will install experimental software or such, screw up Windows, and not know what happened or went wrong with it. But again, rarely have seen or even personally needed to do that on my PC or any others' PCs.

It is pretty useful to use a VM for diagnosing someone else's PC. I have 7 going in a VM that I need to update (iso image is from February of 2011 ) that I'm using to see why IE 10 isn't working anymore. I suspect it's google chrome as when they installed the IE 10 update, they already have chrome installed and IE stopped working. So I'm going to figgle around with that.

I'll agree to disagree as well. It was a weird experience to get 7 in a VM and just being, like very distracted by the Aero transparency. HOLY CRAP. Changed the theme to the architecture one, and all I remember seeing was blue glass.

 

[Coke Robot]

That is I bet the WHOLE reason why Aero was removed, they gave a true technical reason but

They never gave the true technical reason, just market speak.

The True technical reason is that Microsoft has a vision of one interface for all devices. To accomplish that the interface has to work on Celeron Tablets with integrated graphics, while using the least amount of power possible.

There is no reason they could not have left the Aero theme available for those who wish to use it on Desktop systems, except that a lot of people would do so and they would no longer have their vision of one interface. Same reasoning goes with the removal of the start menu.

Microsoft stated that Aero was cheesy and outdated. It is nothing of the sort. These are just terms thought up (probably by a PR company) to explain to their customers why the interface on the Windows desktop was downgraded.

They did, it was for battery life, which has been reported here and there on the interwebs that people get an increase in battery life from 7 to 8 on the same system.

Aero seriously is dated and cheesy looking. Why does it look like there a light shining from above at an angle on the Desktop? There is no light above me, yet the UI is designed to look like that as well as being 3D. Everything is rounded like a Fisher-Price toy. Everything glows when you hover over it. The Aero transparency should had called for a brand name change of Windows to Chrome, as literally one of the reasons to upgrade from xp to Windows vista or 7 is in fact, the adornments around an open window. It is a UI design flaw when something that isn't 10 percent of the whole UI makes people demand that item back. Something that trivial such as what is around a window (keep in mind, Windows 8's Taskbar is transparent, but does not have lighting or 3D effects), a simple window, is in fact almost akin to a distraction.

Personally, every time I use 7 or see a screenshot of it, I immediately glance at the window chrome and Taskbar first before window content. That isn't a good thing. Actually, going down the history of the Aero design form, it evolved from the Aurora UI design that was in the Windows Longhorn concept builds. Guess how it looked? More like Windows 8.

This looks better than Windows 8 in some ways I find. There is a stronger emphasis on UI candy WITHIN the window so to speak, more action and distraction is going on inside the window versus around it. The Taskbar is transparent and clean. The window doesn't have glass, it is a solid color to match the glassy Taskbar and rest of the UI and that color seemed to have been more prevalent throughout the UI. The window control buttons are minimal, they're just simple icon markings, not something to be wowed about like vista and 7. It seemed there was an actual more focus on content versus chrome, even the concept version of Office saved documents in thumbnail views.

Although there is a shiteton of 3D perspective though, holy moly!

 

[DavidY]

Aero seriously is dated and cheesy looking. Why does it look like there a light shining from above at an angle on the Desktop? There is no light above me, yet the UI is designed to look like that as well as being 3D. Everything is rounded like a Fisher-Price toy.

I remember someone telling me how the (then unreleased) Windows XP looked just like a Fisher-Price toy.

Fisher-Price must love Microsoft for all the name-checks they get from each version of Windows.

The Aero transparency should had called for a brand name change of Windows to Chrome

I think some no-name company have already called dibs on the word "Chrome". Do you have the phrase "Bling" over in the US?

For myself, having gone from (fairly plain) XP to 8, when I occasionally get to see Windows 7 and all the Aero stuff it looks very strange to me.

 

[Jf1450]

Personally, every time I use 7 or see a screenshot of it, I immediately glance at the window chrome and Taskbar first before window content. That isn't a good thing.

Every time I fire up 8 and see that Metro/Modern interface I look like this guy. It reminds me of a freaking carnival, not an OS designed and developed by and to be used by, professionals. Talk about cheesy looking..... I don't care what kind of black magic MS did under the covers, one interacts through the interface and the interface looks like a circus. Don't get me started on the lack of multiple, tiled and overlapping windows. Yeah, I know, there is the desktop blah blah blah. MS feels Metro/Modern is the future of computing. Or better yet, their accountants do and they caved to the brain dead FaceTwit crowd.


-jeff

 

[Dogmatix]

Or...

Just literally pin EVERYTHING from the start menu into the File Explorer jumplist and pin Control Panel to the Taskbar. The need for the start menu is irrelevant minus the search bar and All Programs to find a program you rarely use.

I know this, because that's what I did with my setup and EVERY install of Windows 7 I did. Pinned EVERYTHING useful and relevant to the Taskbar, cleaned up the All Programs list, start menu becomes a vestigial piece of UI.

This is more or less how I have my XP arranged. Because the task bar / launch bar icons under XP are small and close together, I have 32 icons taking up less than half the width of the screen, leaving plenty of room for running programmes and the system tray. When I see my kids' Windows 7 desktops, I see the task bar icons are much bigger and further apart, and no way to change that (except, I suppose, by hacking the registry). What I don't like is start icons cluttering the desktop.

I also do not like the semi-transparency of the task bar / system tray which Microsoft has imposed on users in 8 - there is no way to make them opaque.

 

[SIW2]

Personally, every time I use 7 or see a screenshot of it, I immediately glance at the window chrome and Taskbar first before window content. That isn't a good thing.

Every time I fire up 8 and see that Metro/Modern interface I look like this guy. It reminds me of a freaking carnival, not an OS designed and developed by and to be used by, professionals. Talk about cheesy looking..... I don't care what kind of black magic MS did under the covers, one interacts through the interface and the interface looks like a circus. Don't get me started on the lack of multiple, tiled and overlapping windows. Yeah, I know, there is the desktop blah blah blah. MS feels Metro/Modern is the future of computing. Or better yet, their accountants do and they caved to the brain dead FaceTwit crowd.
View attachment 22357

-jeff

If you were the same mental age as the guy in the pic, you might like it.

 

[HippsieGypsie]

Every time I fire up 8 and see that Metro/Modern interface I look like this guy. It reminds me of a freaking carnival, not an OS designed and developed by and to be used by, professionals. Talk about cheesy looking.....

-jeff

Admittedly I think the default Start Screen is quite "loud". Have you considered modifying it? Here's a thread of a lot of posts of members doing so. Some are quite amazing to me.

www.eightforums.com/showthread.php?t=4506

I'm quite sure in future releases and/or updates that MS Will add more personalization options for the Start Screen. We see hint of this in Blue.

Let's look at it from a business standpoint of finances and time. I'm quite sure they allotted an X amount of money and time to write the code of 8 and release the initial product. They can always add to it just as they've done with past OSs.

Keep in mind that this industry moves exponentially quicker nowadays. Releases of new products and concepts change rather quickly. e.g. How often do the new iPhones and iPads with hardware and software get released? Can we say what we buy today is already obsolete? They are already working on the "next model". I think that's true with most products. Yes?

 

[Jf1450]

Keep in mind that this industry moves exponentially quicker nowadays. Releases of new products and concepts change rather quickly. e.g. How often do the new iPhones and iPads with hardware and software get released? Can we say what we buy today is already obsolete? They are already working on the "next model". I think that's true with most products. Yes?

Lets agree to disagree. I think the advances were bigger with more impact back in the early days, the 80's and 90's if you will. Sure, we're still advancing but to me it's more like putting a different face on the same ole stuff. Somebody develops a new idea for a web site. It's still a web site. Processors get faster and faster. How fast is fast enough? Hard drives get bigger. I can't come close to filling what I have now. Screen resolution gets better. The displays we have now already look like a quality photograph. I have a first generation iPad. I go to a store and look at a 4th gen. What's the big deal? I guess I'm getting jaded and showing my age.

-jeff

 

[turbofish]

Keep in mind that this industry moves exponentially quicker nowadays. Releases of new products and concepts change rather quickly. e.g. How often do the new iPhones and iPads with hardware and software get released? Can we say what we buy today is already obsolete? They are already working on the "next model". I think that's true with most products. Yes?

Interesting that all of your examples are not only tablets and phones but also Apple. Computers have stopped evolving as fast. My desktop machine upstairs is still extremely fast and able to run anything I throw at it although it is over 3 years old (a record for me!). Sure, I bumped it up to 16 GB of ram but it has the same hard drives and video card that I put on it 3 years ago when I built it. I imagine my laptop with also last for my needs for quite a few years as well but it did start out as a beefy machine too (i7,two hard drives and 16 GB of ram). My work machine will also last me years before I would ever get the OK to upgrade it (i7,20 GB ram...)

My phone would be more like your example. I'm on my third upgrade in 15 months and was thinking about the new Galaxy S4 but I think my wife will have a phone intervention for me before I can do that!

It also points out a glaring issue that I have with Windows 8. People who defend it the strongest compare it to more of a phone than a laptop/desktop OS. It's not. And Microsoft has mixed up the two far too much. Does windows 2012 server really need the Modern UI just like a phone or an XBOX? Does my desktop really need an airplane mode? When you make a one size fits all OS, you end up alienate everyone and making a product that doesn't fit well in anything.

Stop using iPhone/iPad examples.

 

[XweAponX]

It's not JUST the missing Start Menu - It's the hiding of "Safe Mode" under layers of forced-reboots you must do to get to it - Not to mention, if the OS is not working perfectly, you cannot get to any of those areas.

And how many times does that happen that safe mode is needed?

Agreed, not many - HOWEVER, the process of getting into it should be as easy as it has ever been. I remember having a helluva time hitting F8 at JUST the right moment in Windows 98. Under 2000, XP, and Vista/7 this is much easier cos that window was elongated. But in 8 it is this huge PROCESS. Safe mode needs to be readily available, because although it is not used that much, it is STILL needed, and it should be easy to access.

 

[XweAponX]

They never gave the true technical reason, just market speak.

The True technical reason is that Microsoft has a vision of one interface for all devices. To accomplish that the interface has to work on Celeron Tablets with integrated graphics, while using the least amount of power possible.

There is no reason they could not have left the Aero theme available for those who wish to use it on Desktop systems, except that a lot of people would do so and they would no longer have their vision of one interface. Same reasoning goes with the removal of the start menu.

Microsoft stated that Aero was cheesy and outdated. It is nothing of the sort. These are just terms thought up (probably by a PR company) to explain to their customers why the interface on the Windows desktop was downgraded.

Now, this is odd, because in my Celeron machine, under Vista for which it was designed for, but not really designed for as Vista required at least a Core Duo for proper use, I could never get AERO to work.

But the moment I installed Windows 7, it worked immediately, despite it being a Celeron with Integrated Graphics. All they had to do was integrate whatever they had done ti Windows 7 to make it work with more machines and upgrade it a little so that it could work for even more older machines by including native support.

 

[HippsieGypsie]

Lets agree to disagree.

Ok. I can respect that. We are all individuals with different viewpoints and realities. Mine is certainly not the only one.

I think the advances were bigger with more impact back in the early days, the 80's and 90's if you will.

Yes, impact and advantages were greater back in those days. e.g. We have by far more computing power in our cars than the Apollo missions had back in the late 60's early 70's. Memory on our phones that used to take up large-sized rooms.

I looked at your profile and it's hard to say, but I'll assume we're roughly the same age if you remember computing in the 80"s. I'll also assume that you're either an IT Pro or use a computer professionally. Either way, I can tell you're an advanced user. You can read about me and others here: http://www.eightforums.com/chillout-room/7538-personal-computer-related-memories-i-remember.html Perhaps you'd like to post your history there, for I'd like to see the thread revived. I think history is quite important, especially for the younger.

Sure, we're still advancing but to me it's more like putting a different face on the same ole stuff. Somebody develops a new idea for a web site.
It's still a web site. Processors get faster and faster. How fast is fast enough? Hard drives get bigger. I can't come close to filling what I have now.
Screen resolution gets better. The displays we have now already look like a quality photograph. I have a first generation iPad. I go to a store and look at
a 4th gen. What's the big deal?

One thing I've noticed about we humans; I especially learned this raising my children; We are always seeking to be entertained or finding ways to entertain ourselves. We're enthusiasts here, either as a Pro or novice. We're unique in that we seek the edge of new tech. I agree it's basically the same old stuff with a different face, but don't we all like new things? I think we'd get bored if we didn't. I would anyway. e.g. I'm a builder. Although I like Victorian houses (but wouldn't own one), I'd get bored building them over and over again or even looking at them. There is and always will be always "the modern". Mankind always seeks a better way of doing things.

We are getting close the the end of Moore's law. Computer architecture will slow down pretty soon, but then look at bio or atomic-scale computing. Will there be an end to computing?

I guess I'm getting jaded and showing my age.

-jeff

Yes, it's hell getting "older".

 

[lehnerus2000]

Hard drives get bigger. I can't come close to filling what I have now.

Create more backups.

 

[Coke Robot]

Keep in mind that this industry moves exponentially quicker nowadays. Releases of new products and concepts change rather quickly. e.g. How often do the new iPhones and iPads with hardware and software get released? Can we say what we buy today is already obsolete? They are already working on the "next model". I think that's true with most products. Yes?

Interesting that all of your examples are not only tablets and phones but also Apple. Computers have stopped evolving as fast. My desktop machine upstairs is still extremely fast and able to run anything I throw at it although it is over 3 years old (a record for me!). Sure, I bumped it up to 16 GB of ram but it has the same hard drives and video card that I put on it 3 years ago when I built it. I imagine my laptop with also last for my needs for quite a few years as well but it did start out as a beefy machine too (i7,two hard drives and 16 GB of ram). My work machine will also last me years before I would ever get the OK to upgrade it (i7,20 GB ram...)

My phone would be more like your example. I'm on my third upgrade in 15 months and was thinking about the new Galaxy S4 but I think my wife will have a phone intervention for me before I can do that!

It also points out a glaring issue that I have with Windows 8. People who defend it the strongest compare it to more of a phone than a laptop/desktop OS. It's not. And Microsoft has mixed up the two far too much. Does windows 2012 server really need the Modern UI just like a phone or an XBOX? Does my desktop really need an airplane mode? When you make a one size fits all OS, you end up alienate everyone and making a product that doesn't fit well in anything.

Stop using iPhone/iPad examples.

Should your desktop OS have drivers for mobile GPUs and batteries or wifi cards or touchpads? Or better yet, power modes that most applicable for battery life?

 

[Coke Robot]

Hard drives get bigger. I can't come close to filling what I have now.

Create more backups.

Give me a four TB hard drive and I will fill it up within a week guaranteed.

 

[Wenda]

I have 5.75TB, and am thinking of getting another 2TB.


Wenda.