Final thoughts on Windows 8: A design disaster

Night Hawk · Jun 9, 2012

The writing is on the wall as far as interest! There's no doubt that a great deal of 7's success came along after many were simply disappointed at Vista. Yet Vista is a much more stable OS then XP was ever thought to be. The old version didn't realize the much longed for fixes until SP3 finally came along seeing it made a half way usable OS!

In some sense I go back to the 90s when 98 was first seen and was the "slow boat" or "bloated OS" when first comparing it to 95. Yet take a look at how some still want to dual boot the old Legacy version with 7! I ran it on a VM not too long ago.

(too bad I couldn't Duke3D running again. :cry:

for old times sake. The dos emulator for 7 saw it crash after the first level.)

Vista for many could be liken to the slow boat 98 was first taken for while that also proved itself over 95. Likewise no one is doubting the core element in 8 haven't seen improvements as well as it now seeing some effect antivirus protection rolled in while stripping other popular(for many) features out like Media Center and dvd playback support in WMP 13 or whatever they will call that now. http://www.eightforums.com/windows-8-news/6704-windows-8s-built-av-security-last-resort.html

Found about that when first installing the CP and suddenly "Windows Defender"(generally good for nothing!) finds a trojan inside an old download(zip file). I guess MS had to step things up since McAFail wasn't going to be a big hit with 8?! as far as trial softwares bundled with OEM bloat wares.

Apparently the protection engaged itself as the report there indicates since no av program had been installed at all not even on the RP as of this time. That will be another thing to try out as well as other apps and the deeper look at the backup and restoration options besides compatibility issues before ruling 8 out entirely as a secondary OS. As for seeing 8 replace 7? It's not happening here!

tseven · Jun 9, 2012

Design wise it is not a full on disaster but yes it is somewhat of a disaster. In my opinion anyway. The product itself isn't bad it's just they have not made it a good experience. On the metro side it's much better of an experience than the desktop. But I won't be designing or drawing with my fingers maybe a stylus but I would want a much more powerful program. I don't think I really hate the fact that they removed the start button but people that keep saying well use the metro screen. I get it it's a replacement but it is a mess. If I actually used the metro start screen it would combine all the apps and desktop programs. I would have to search for it and then pin it on the start screen you would have to actually open the program just to pin it to the taskbar that is. Also some people will love the hybrid experience. I would like it if the design wasn't so jarring and if I wasn't doing real work but when I'm doing real work I don't want to have to go into metro to get a desktop program. That just doesn't seem right from a user's prospective. Like when you install a program there are no desktop icons on the actual desktop in my experience it goes to the metro start screen and everything you install goes there. It doesn't take A LOT of time but I would prefer there be a desktop solution where I don't have to go into metro AT ALL. If I search I'm in metro. If I want to pin I'm in metro. I don't hate metro but having to go into it just to get something on the desktop is just odd. Why not just give us a way to navigate the desktop on the desktop side as well. Also when you do the metro snap clicking the hot spots and the hidden menu becomes awkward especially if you are mixing the desktop with the metro mobile side. I just prefer them have a solution no one is saying they should dump metro but to mix it up without letting desktop users have a desktop method to navigate the computer is highly inconvenient but like I said I don't need the start button but there needs to be a replacement to navigate the desktop better. That is needed.

Metro design wise needs a little more life and they need to play with typography more even the people that are designing the apps are doing a better job of designing. On the Zune HD they did it much better with how they went about designing the user-interface and how they handled the typography(which they keep saying is a important part of the metro philosophy) but I don't see them exploring. They keep using the same weight and same styling. Also they need to make things a bit more dynamic. The flatness works when everything is so simple and static but that is not the case with a computer and all the content that comes along with it. I'm not saying go crazy with the effects but there are spots where they need to use it and it doesn't exist and their philosophy doesn't hold up. Swiss style graphic design or even graphic design in general is not as boring as this. The start screens landscape horizontally panning is nice when there are few apps but when there is too much the screen becomes a clutter and annoying to scroll through and not as organized as the grid they use.

alphanumeric · Jun 9, 2012

Night Hawk said:
When you first go to install either the CP or RP what do you run right into once past the Lock/Logon screens? The Start screen.

Once you find the desktop button and arrive there you may want to open a second window or app. If you need open a seocond IE window or want to copy and paste and need that second WE window opened where do you go? The pinned shortcut won't open a second meaning back to Square #1 to click the Metro shortcut if one is present there.

Now for those familiar with the Windows key + letter E combination they wouldn't run into any problem seeing a second WE windows opened. For those not familiar at all with keyboard shortcuts on the other hand "back and forth" becomes the constant factor. Having a Quick Launch bar added to the taskbar if not using another 3rd party addon will of course save on the additional steps.

But what if you don't pin things to the task bar or even know about RocketDock as one example? You can still see them pinned to the Start screen if the Windows installer doesn't already do that for any new app going on. Pinning things to the Start screen once you find the Programs folder will help but still brings you back to.. Square #1.

If you hold the shift key down and click the IE icon on the taskbar it will open a second instance of IE instead of taking you to the already open window. Works with just about any Icon on the taskbar. If you are trying to aviod the Metro start screen like me, this helps a lot.

SIW2 · Jun 9, 2012

It is fascinating to watch.

It is as if MS is deliberately making an unpopular o/s to follow a popular one.

I suspect Kingsley is right.

My predictions are that after the initial fanfare following the release, things will play out as follows:

Enterprise will continue to demand Windows 7, because to roll out Windows 8 ‘properly’ the costs will rocket due to mass purchase of touch-enabled hardware and additional user interface training;

OEMs will sell Windows 7 PCs alongside Windows 8 systems because they will find it almost impossible to present the benefits of Windows 8 on desktop systems;

Microsoft will once again find itself in a position where it has to offer longer-term support for the older operating system;

Windows 9 will look significantly different to Windows 8, and likely switch back to the ‘traditional’ Windows interface;

Depending on how Windows RT tablets sell, Metro could well be on life-support come Windows 9.

Win9 will be where it is at

HippsieGypsie · Jun 9, 2012

Hi All,

My God do I learn a lot about OSs and people in this fine forum! Very informative, to say the least. I love cyberspace!!

Basically a newbie that started with dual-booting 7 and 8RP. Didn't have earlier versions of 8. Still learning to set up and get around in 8 for a few weeks. Overall I think it's 7 much improved besides a few minor kinks in stability and the learning curve.

I'm one of the oldies that started with 95 and DOS. I've had every OS save XP and 2000, for which I have friends that disliked them, mostly for instability. I liked them all except Vista, which was unstable for me. I couldn't wait for 7 to come out!

Yes, I kinda' miss the menu on the desktop, but after getting to know and setting up the start page, getting a Metro Apps shortcut my desktop (via this forum), and working with all for awhile, I'm liking it. I've always tried to learn and use shortcut keys. WinKey/Tab, Alt/Tab, etc. I would suggest some people try them.....Not mentioning names!

As you can see, I have an older system that I've been thinking about updating hardware (new video card, tear out the useless modem, etc.) but I thought naaaaa.....I'll pass it along to the college kid and by a new system with touch screen and all the bells and whistles. Not that M$ or anyone else is forcing me to buy a new one, although I can hear the hint via promotions. It's just that it's time to move on for me to change and buy new one. Besides, I'm getting sick of the mouse (falling-to-sleep-hand & potential carpal tunnel syndrome) and I think touch with 8 will be more effective. My screen is less than a arm's length away. (LOL! Arm's length from a few things!) The keyboard, of course, will always remain unless they devise a way for installing a USB to our brains! Wouldn't that be the Ts?!! Kidding aside, I don't think that's not too far off either.

As I've stated in past posts (which is not my original idea) they should make it a choice which UI (or both) to choose on boot. Other than that, I'm liking it. Thumbs up, M$!

Finally, for the record......I am not affiliated with any company, sect, denomination, politics, organization, or religion. I do not wish to engage in any controversy, neither endorse nor oppose any causes. My primary purpose is to live in reality and cyberspace and let others choose their own noose. :geek:

windude99 · Jun 9, 2012

Here's the thing with the Windows Team right now. They don't LISTEN to the PEOPLE that they make MONEY off of. They don't ask us what we want, they just bet all of the cards on a pice of crud os which is going to fail and ruin the Windows reputation even more. Macs are increasing in popularity and the average Joe doesn't know how to put Windows 7 on a Windows 8 computer. It's like Microsoft is trying to kill the pc market by making them fail on purpose. Anywau, I don't find Windows 8 that great on tablets either. You can't change the wallpaper in Metro. That is a dealbreaker right there becasue if you can't do that in Metro, then you can't do other things either to Metro. I'm getting ready to get an Android tablet where I can customize way more than Metro could be customized in a million years. Also, I'm gonna stick with Windows 7 and Vista on my pcs because Windows 7 and Vista just work. There is no need to upgrade if what you have works perfectly fine.

Night Hawk · Jun 10, 2012

alphanumeric said:
Night Hawk said:

When you first go to install either the CP or RP what do you run right into once past the Lock/Logon screens? The Start screen.

Once you find the desktop button and arrive there you may want to open a second window or app. If you need open a seocond IE window or want to copy and paste and need that second WE window opened where do you go? The pinned shortcut won't open a second meaning back to Square #1 to click the Metro shortcut if one is present there.

Now for those familiar with the Windows key + letter E combination they wouldn't run into any problem seeing a second WE windows opened. For those not familiar at all with keyboard shortcuts on the other hand "back and forth" becomes the constant factor. Having a Quick Launch bar added to the taskbar if not using another 3rd party addon will of course save on the additional steps.

But what if you don't pin things to the task bar or even know about RocketDock as one example? You can still see them pinned to the Start screen if the Windows installer doesn't already do that for any new app going on. Pinning things to the Start screen once you find the Programs folder will help but still brings you back to.. Square #1.

Click to expand...

If you hold the shift key down and click the IE icon on the taskbar it will open a second instance of IE instead of taking you to the already open window. Works with just about any Icon on the taskbar. If you are trying to aviod the Metro start screen like me, this helps a lot.

I am well aware of various keyboard shortcuts and how to open multiple windows. That wasn't the point I was making however. If you using the point and click method as most will do automatically not being office workers familiar with all the tricks the back and forth momentum is continual for those not familiar with pinning things on either the taskbar or Start screen. The entire process for the novice user then becomes tedious and clumbersome putting it mildly.

windude99 said:
Here's the thing with the Windows Team right now. They don't LISTEN to the PEOPLE that they make MONEY off of. They don't ask us what we want, they just bet all of the cards on a pice of crud os which is going to fail and ruin the Windows reputation even more. Macs are increasing in popularity and the average Joe doesn't know how to put Windows 7 on a Windows 8 computer. It's like Microsoft is trying to kill the pc market by making them fail on purpose. Anywau, I don't find Windows 8 that great on tablets either. You can't change the wallpaper in Metro. That is a dealbreaker right there becasue if you can't do that in Metro, then you can't do other things either to Metro. I'm getting ready to get an Android tablet where I can customize way more than Metro could be customized in a million years. Also, I'm gonna stick with Windows 7 and Vista on my pcs because Windows 7 and Vista just work. There is no need to upgrade if what you have works perfectly fine.

Naturally they Do Not listen to the average user! The bulk of their profits comes in from corporate interests to start with! They extended support until 2014 for XP for who? Corporate! Vista until 2016 for who? Corporate! 7 until 2020 and once again Corporate!

For things like customization of background the RP still has the limited color theme background for the Start screen as well as main theme. The Lock screen on the other hand allows you to select a photo or wallpaper to use instead of their selection there. As far as hand held devices on the other side of the story those with cameras and allow removable memory cards often allow you to set any pic as the background simply when browsing through the MyImages or whatever folder.

As far as buying softwares for any "Fruit Company" systems plan to spend far more since all the wares are specific to their brand of machine only! And they make sure you know it with the price tags! Just browse any retail store still seeing a software section which includes their stuff as well as the programs for Windows!

Now for Windows sales MS obviously needed a mind blower following the Vista slump while that a massively delayed version taking 6 yrs. total to see released. The initial faults were never as severe as the bad rep however. Two main problems were delays in Vista updates, no device drivers and Vista compatible apps ready and understating the minimum system requirements so OEMs could sell it with only skimpy 256mb dimms in pairs rather the far better 2gb minimum for seeing a much smoother running OS in both XP and Vista!

sjengie · Jun 10, 2012

torn between two worlds

After 30 years of fanatic windows user i have already decided to switch to a complete new Apple system (mac mini, time capsule, ipads and iphone) as soon as i have the coins together this summer.

I have been using the W8 previews (on a Acer Iconia W500 tablet w/o keyboard) and as a consumer I get more and more annoyed that things just do not work / integrate nicely. I do like the MUI (both with and without keyboard) but wish i could switch off the old desktop initerface. But we cant do without because then i can not enjoy my media files stored on my Synology server. MUI cant find them (and the Truelink+ app is not a good alterative). The old Media player can. Toooo Confusing ......

Yes, things will work with updates etc in the future but with Apple such things just work out of the box (i have seen it), let along the fun of airplay.

Sorry guys ....... but for consumers Windows is not the first choice (anymore) if you ask me

Night Hawk · Jun 10, 2012

Once you get stiffed by "Applitis" prices you might reconsider that! Those are just like OEM bloatwares you just can't seem to get rid of or do without at the same time.

To date 7 has already been doing everything nicely without a fuss. I skipped over other older versions(ME, 2000) so I certainly won't worry too much about keeping 7 alive a bit longer!

HippsieGypsie · Jun 10, 2012

I really can't tell who, but someone is hell-bent on destroying M$ & 8.

jimbo45 · Jun 10, 2012

Hi there.

I've customized W2K3 SERVER to run as a fantastic desktop OS -- complete with games etc and it STILL beats the H/S out of 7.
It allows me to run old EXPENSIVE hardware that never had drivers for 7 -- manufacturer no longer around but the plotter hardware I have is still functioning perfectly.

I've virtualized it now -- but it still works fantastically well -- no point on upgrading just for the sake of it.

I only upgraded to 7 once I got a laptop with an I5 CPU + 8 GB RAM in it and a desktop with a quad cpu and 16 GB RAM. With these I really needed 64 bit capable OS'es although most of what I do could be done just as easiliy on the W3K3 system -- even DVD playing and unlike most server systems W2K3 even had sound enabled.

While I can never be 100% sure most of the sort of sites I visit on the web aren't likely to be riddled with viruses -- I've never in all my years of using computer gear ever experienced a virus of any sort.

Most of the reasons people give you for updating are usually rubbish -- once you've got an OS working the way YOU want it to do then don't switch just because somebody says -- no updates / security updates after xxxx. So what if you are using the system correctly.

If you want or need to use new features for example creating multi-media stuff needs a much more powerful machine than just doing email or Word then that's a sensible reason for upgrading.

I am messing around with W8 just out of curiosity -- and I DO like the Windows to Go feature -- but would I BUY W8 in its current state --- probably not. If I had to have it I'd still keep running my office apps etc from the W2K3 virtual server VM I have -- then all talk of the start menu etc is irrelevant.

Any 2 year old will tell you that Metro has absolutely ZERO place on a desktop OS. (Note the classic Start menu isn't so nice either when you have a zillion applications with loads of menus, sub menus, sub sub menus etc).

I'm still not sure what Ms is trying to do with this OS. The really only interesting feature is the Windows to GO -- but apparently only available on Enterprise (not available by retail) and from what I've seen so far this OS is going to be totally shunned by any business --large or small.

It might work on a tablet --but latest releases of Android are good --I hated android at first but google seem to be learning really fast about constructing an OS -- just needs a few more security features and then why bother with Windows on a tablet at all --
Android is also FREE BTW so Ms have another hurdle to overcome.

This OS won't be the "Vista" of MS but the total joke OS that Ms put out and thankfully died the death very quickly -- Windows Millenium.

I think W8 is a great toy -- but as a workhorse OS -- no way yet. Stick with W7.

Almost any computer will show dramatic improvements if you can afford an SSD -- this IMO would be better value for money than a W8 upgrade.

I'll continue playing with it for a little while yet and see if Ms does anything -- otherwise get ready to ditch Ms's stock as fast as possible. It will go downhill quicker than Kodak or even Nokia.

cheers
jimbo

MadHorseman · Jun 10, 2012

jimbo45 said:
Almost any computer will show dramatic improvements if you can afford an SSD -- this IMO would be better value for money than a W8 upgrade.

jimbo

I'm guessing Win8 Pro 64-bit would be around £120 - so I'm sold for my Main M/C - any recs as to which SSD mfg - I'm on Sata2 only here!

alphanumeric · Jun 10, 2012

Night Hawk said:
alphanumeric said:

If you hold the shift key down and click the IE icon on the taskbar it will open a second instance of IE instead of taking you to the already open window. Works with just about any Icon on the taskbar. If you are trying to aviod the Metro start screen like me, this helps a lot.

Click to expand...

I am well aware of various keyboard shortcuts and how to open multiple windows. That wasn't the point I was making however. If you using the point and click method as most will do automatically not being office workers familiar with all the tricks the back and forth momentum is continual for those not familiar with pinning things on either the taskbar or Start screen. The entire process for the novice user then becomes tedious and clumbersome putting it mildly.

I totally agree!

jimbo45 · Jun 10, 2012

Hi there
Samsung M3 or vertex seem to be the main choices -- I go for the 120 GB Samsung --really fast. I'm on my 4th one -- two in laptops (Sony VAIO large laptop, and an ACER aspire 1 netbook) and two SSD's in my desktop.

On a laptop the 120 GB size is actually more than enough -- any extra data I take a usb stick (32 GB) or a small 1 TB external USB drive. Both items small enough to put in the computer case without even noticing you've got them.

The performance of the SSD make it a sure winner in every situation.

Until you've tried one it's almost impossible to explain the dramatic improvement -- you'll wonder how you ever managed without one. Works wonders even on modest hardware too.

Cheers
jimbo

HPDeskjet · Jun 10, 2012

The underlying OS is good but the desktop experience is a lesson in bad design.

An example:

An operating system that requires most new users on a desktop to do a Google search in order to find out how to shut the damn thing down is simple bad design. There is no other way you can describe it. It's also not very environmentally friendly if Microsoft expect everyone to leave their tablet or desktop running 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year, simply because they have made it so complicated for people to work out how to shut it down.

The dismal reception of Windows 8 so far also reflects Redmonds seeming inability, or unwillingness, to listen to what seems to be the majority of testers complaints. You know, people talk about dumbing things down in general, but I must say that the Metro interface would look more at home on a Fisher Price toy computer than on my desktop.

Soundtweaker · Jun 10, 2012

Don't worry, Win8 will come with a startup tutorial for dummies.

crawfish · Jun 10, 2012

Soundtweaker said:
Don't worry, Win8 will come with a startup tutorial for dummies.

That title will never have been more literally true. An alternative in academic style could be, "An Essay on Design Failure".

alphanumeric · Jun 10, 2012

Lighten up dude, I don't think that comment was meant to infer that any of us are dummies. You have heard of the "For Dummies" books haven't you?

crawfish · Jun 10, 2012

alphanumeric said:
Lighten up dude, I don't think that comment was meant to infer that any of us are dummies. You have heard of the "For Dummies" books haven't you?

windude99 · Jun 10, 2012

Yea, I'm sorry it was phrased a bit strongly, in my opinion. It sounded like he was calling us dummies. I deleted my above post, so there is nothing to worry about now

Final thoughts on Windows 8: A design disaster

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