Windows 8's uptake falls behind Vista's pace

mcnulty · Jan 4, 2013

Tepid said:
A menu/grocery/nutrition calculator/knows where all your stores are and what sales are where that you can access from a tablet sitting in your kitchen, to your bedroom, to the Desktop in the study and your phone on the go? And that is only one example.

There's absolutely no need to have the same UI across all possible devices to satisfy that use case.

BillWindows · Jan 4, 2013

"That's nice! What I was referring to is the fact that MS didn't actucally develop any new desktop version as far as the main gui is concerned but simply slapped the RT gui on, added a few new items, stripped away media elements, and then called it a new desktop version."

So what you're saying is that Microsoft did this over one weekend and just threw it out there hoping some poor idiots would take the bait. I'm not a software engineer but I think there's a lot more to Windows 8 than you claim.

Look if you and your friend are having such a hard time with Windows 8, maybe you should just stick with XP. If I can remember back that far I'm pretty sure there was a power button and a menu on there so that would make you feel more at ease.

Maybe you can take Windows 8 classes in the meantime and within 12 months you should be able to find your way around. And look I see you like looking around for negative stories about Windows 8, there's a new search engine called Google, not sure if its in XP, just type in I hate Windows 8, I'm sure you can find plenty of hate out there.

Fredledingue · Jan 4, 2013

Tepid said:
Please keep in mind that the conceptual goal ( and the ability is there in Windows 8) is cross platform conformity of apps and data.

...and this goal is perfect non sens IMO. Why have different devices if it's to use the exactely same apps and UI? Just carry the smallest one in your pocket and here you go in this case.

Tepid said:
Yes, POP3 is on it's way out btw

Perhaps you are right but it's sad because no web based e-mail service is as easy and as efficient to use as POP3. POP3 is vastly superior once you know how to use it. All you need is to have a copy of your account setup file with you to install it on other machines. You have much more control with POP3 because you decide what you yourself. You are not dependant on a web site. If you own your own domain, POP3 is definetly the way to go. You own both the server and the client. Can't be better.

Of course, unfortunately, it's always the dumbest things that prevail because they give the false sens of easiness. But manipulating Gmail or Y!mail isn't realy easy IMO. Why do you have to upload a file before sending it? To me it's an aberration.

BillWindows said:
Considering they're writing on average 300 to 500 Apps per day and 700 per day before Christmas, they seem to be getting the hang of it.

Yes I must say, they noticed that we need about 500 new apps every day. I couldn't sleep last night because they released on 499 of them.

BillWindows said:
I cannot believe you guys are still talking about a power button, a start menu and Aero.

Yes, Bill, it's been one year that we are writting that again and again, MS should know by now, and still no reaction from their part. It's unbelievable that they ignore so much the opinion of the users. Nothing has changed. I agree.

BillWindows · Jan 4, 2013

"Yes I must say, they noticed that we need about 500 new apps every day. I couldn't sleep last night because they released on 499 of them."

Well I haven't been able to sleep for the last twelve months because of the lack of a power button and a start menu. I feel like Microsoft has completely let me down and they should have rung me before making any changes. I can't eat I can't sleep, I turn my computer on and it goes onto these ugly tiles and nothing happens.

I don't know where the desktop is, I don't know where the start menu is and even worse I can't turn it off. I've had it with Microsoft I'm going out to find a computer shop and build an Apple based computer out of cheap parts and never look back, I'm going to join the other 7% and dropping.

Night Hawk · Jan 4, 2013

BillWindows said:
"That's nice! What I was referring to is the fact that MS didn't actucally develop any new desktop version as far as the main gui is concerned but simply slapped the RT gui on, added a few new items, stripped away media elements, and then called it a new desktop version."

So what you're saying is that Microsoft did this over one weekend and just threw it out there hoping some poor idiots would take the bait. I'm not a software engineer but I think there's a lot more to Windows 8 than you claim.

Look if you and your friend are having such a hard time with Windows 8, maybe you should just stick with XP. If I can remember back that far I'm pretty sure there was a power button and a menu on there so that would make you feel more at ease.

Maybe you can take Windows 8 classes in the meantime and within 12 months you should be able to find your way around. And look I see you like looking around for negative stories about Windows 8, there's a new search engine called Google, not sure if its in XP, just type in I hate Windows 8, I'm sure you can find plenty of hate out there.

The Staples Office store chain is offering "free instructions" for anyone buying a new 8 machine. What does that tell you? Never before have they gone this far in offering free instructions for use on any version when first out! They "know" people will be lost and it will get tougher to sell new machines unless they pitch in due to how MS managed to bungle things!

"Oh you can now have your favorite Tablet gui on your desktop!" which immediately drowns out the other changes at the core level such as improvement in security explaining why a 7 dual boot with 8 ended in mishap when both were trashed due to a change at the boot level. Then you add in one actual innovative idea out of the entire mess with the new "window(s) shade" type Lock screen and now you can login with a pic or pin code over forgetting a password!

The core level also sees a much needed improvement in the MS Security Essential seen as the updated Windows Defender being a plus factor of having a working av program included. But that comes at the cost of other things which also explains a faster boot time like no more Media Center which was brought following the XP MCE and simply an item tossed in with Vista and 7 there.

The dvd playback support stripped out of their default media player is another item people will be wondering about and why they now have to go out and buy some other program for media playback as well as people asking how to transfer MC settings from 7 over to 8 once the MC is bought now at the Metro apps store as a separate paid for item.

Now besides the gui being the same as found on the Surface Tablets the OS is becoming more like it as well with the familiar items being stripped away to make it a more mobile suitable OS over maintaining a desktop OS that offers a multiple of useable features as it has always been since the additional Windows components on the old Legacy disks days. Once example of 98PLUS! over 98SE there. At least back then when not already included you could still install options from the Windows cd prepackaged there.

BillWindows · Jan 5, 2013

I'll tell you one thing Night Hawk, you've got a way with words, I reckon you could convince people that flying a kite is the most complicated task on the planet.

Windows 8

Bootup

Put in password

Click on Desktop

mouse to the right settings

mouse to bottom left of screen. More settings

Mouse to bottom left. Back to metro

Start screen Click on tiles to start app

I was going to put more into this comment, but I had to search for something and I've forgotten where the charms bar is, out of site out of mind, now I hope I can remember how to turn this flaming thing off.

Night Hawk · Jan 5, 2013

When going to look at any newer version I not only look for just myself alone but have to advise other people on whether or not it will be worth the time depending each individual circumstance.

Now when looking back to compare Vista with 8 to look over what's new what do you find? With Vista besides bringing the Aero for Desktop themes no less the sidebar was also a new bell and whistle for the desktop as well as finally seeing MS provide some repair tools for the average user. You still saw one thing there however namely the "options" for choosing either the Aero or Classic XP style themes and appearance settings!

With 7 the sidebar was eliminated when you could then place gadgets on the desktop as well as seeing the old Quick Launch section of the main taskbar become a pin to taskbar option. Another pair of improvements seen in the Windows desktop experience.

With 8 however instead of fully learning from 7's success MS wondered off to compete in the Tablet market and left the desktop platform unattended while some core improvements went into the latest. While coming up with a working touchscreen gui for Windows is a great idea as new hardwares for the what? Desktop become available that also requires a progressive "desktop" gui to deploy that still keeps in mind the customer needs such as a productive workstation concept.

You also have to remember that Vista got a bad rep right from it's own get go due to MS making a Big Goober in understating the actuall minimum requirements that should have been recommended from the start. But to satisfy OEMs selling under-equipped new pcs seeing only 256mb to 512mb being offered back then MS let it slide and people found themselves running a turtle rather then driving a Ferrari or Masserati. zzzzzzzzzzvroooomm.... and gone!

With 7 being redeveloped to bring in the MinWin kernel as well as less bloat which Vista was critisized for the system requirements where what should have been for Vista! MS corrected that goober in order to work out a working OS. But they failed to learn again this time from going from a working OS into ???

You either love it or hate with no room inbetween! People still try however by tweaking the 3rd party options MS should have included rather then omitting in order to see more people willing to make any transition to Mobile orientated. It certainly isn't about whether or not you can find the two Control Panels rather then one!, the right click menu "hidden under" the Start ccreen popup corner in the most awkward place for those fewer CP options, or trying to hover the cursor over just the right spot in order to see the Crayler bar appear.

In one simple term, "Practicality" is the actual missing element as MS focused on seeing the same RT gui on all platforms while designed specifically for what? Not the desktop but Tablet and hand held Win Phone application. As for the core elements those are simply what to expect with any newer version as far as improving security and performance while previously not at the cost of losing a number of other things. Take 7 and strip out things and you have the core for 8!

jimbo45 · Jan 6, 2013

Hi there
You can't even REMOTELY begin to compare the take up of Windows 8 compared with VISTA. At the time of VISTA smartphones were unheard of and tablets were probably not even a dream in the late Steve Jobs' head.

Statistics are extremely dangerous things to be used TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT or without a total understanding of what they relate to.

Remember the old quote "Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics ...". Probably from as far back as Mark Twain.

Lies, damned lies, and statistics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hardware also needs to be updated less frequently, we are possibly just emerging from the largest recession since the great Wall St crash of 1929 and there's a diversity of devices that we now use for things we would have used a laptop for previously.

Windows 8 will chug along quite OK and to those who say Windows 8 phones are HORRIBLE have either never tried one or are thinking of the old phones based on Windows 7 which were a real dogs dinner. The modern Windows 8 phones are great -- I don't have one myself as I like the Galaxy IIIs but if I were in the market now for a new phone I'd certainly consider the latest Windows 8 phones - even the mighty Samsung may introduce a Windows 8 phone later -- that surely says something about the potential of these devices.

I don't think Ms has anything to be worried about -- just read some of the leaks about the next generation of the Xbox - these will just FLY off the shelves -- the grapevine has it that the new video rendering definition will make the current HD standard look like a 2 year old's crayon drawing, it will be 3-D enabled, possibility also to project some sort of Hologram as well - although currently you probably will still need special glasses to view this effect.

Some of the doomsayers here on this very Forum seem to just WANT Ms to fail -- Well apart from the literally MILLIONS of jobs world wide directly and indirectly due to Ms just where would that leave home computing, gaming platforms and all sorts of other things we just take for granted -- there isn't anybody else who could take up this slack in any reasonable timeframe whatsoever.

Remember also Ms makes a lot of its profit on Servers and Enterprise products too - especially Office. Nobody else even comes close into providing an alternative. - Some make a reasonable effort at SOME PIECES of the office suite but nobody has any serious competition to the whole suite.

However -- to any budding entrepreneurs out there -- if you think Ms is doomed -- well go ahead and start your alternative -- if you make it -- well good for you and I certainly won't begrudge any cent you spend on whatever you want to spend your trillions of dollars on.

For the moment I'm not selling the Ms stock just yet.

While I prefer the W7 approach for the way I work it's not too difficult to operate Windows 8 reasonably in "Desktop mode" if you pin your most used applications to the desktop and / or taskbar.

It Does get a bit complicated where you have loads of complex applications which formerly had loads of sub options and sub sub options -- i.e a menu system with a decent hierarchical level for sub menus / options. For a lot of people who don't run these type of applications Windows 8 is fine -- and REAL people I've met seem to quite like Windows 8 when you show it to them - these are typical home users who run a few basic applications rather than the complex stuff some professionals require in their workplaces.

In any case windows 8 has some good features -- such as better hardware detection, good built in security, virtual ISO handling without the need for a 3rd party application, improved code optimisation, better touch screen operation,continuous file backup (via the HISTORY feature) etc . so if you can upgrade cheaply it's probably worth a shot. If you need a Hierarchical structure because you run a lot of complex applications then it's probably wiser to stay with W7.

Cheers
jimbo

Ray8 · Jan 6, 2013

I don't think anyone really expects or wants Microsoft to fail, but the latest directions are frustrating for many, when there was no real need on Microsoft's part to make is so. Just a bit of flexibility on Microsoft's part, acknowledging that the desktop experience is an important part of many people's work and play life, would have alleviated just about every complaint.

And the fact is, Windows 8 is not a revelation or a revolution, it's simply trying to be too many things at once, with flawed cosmetic changes (in my and many other's opinions) when it comes to desktop use. I'm not talking about what's contained in the underlying OS, but what's contained in the user interface. Because it's polarised so many people, there is clearly an issue that needs to be considered/addressed.

The fact that third party programs are so successful in addressing what people are seeking from the OS, is a clear indication that people are not happy with what Microsoft has delivered. And if Windows 8 tablets fail to capture any significant proportion of the market, where does that leave Microsoft? Where does it leave all those desktop users who don't want a tablet experience on their desktop?

Burgurne · Jan 6, 2013

jimbo45 said:
In any case windows 8 has some good features -- such as better hardware detection, good built in security, virtual ISO handling without the need for a 3rd party application, improved code optimisation, better touch screen operation,continuous file backup (via the HISTORY feature) etc . so if you can upgrade cheaply it's probably worth a shot. If you need a Hierarchical structure because you run a lot of complex applications then it's probably wiser to stay with W7.

Cheers
jimbo

Yes, no need for a 3rd party application on ISO ... but many of us now need a 3rd party application for "fixing" the desktop a little, and aero is still missing!

No matter if Windows 8 is easier or more difficult to use, many think it is so ugly, f.i. me. "Metro" is ugly on a big monitor, and is not very well suited for a desktop PC. If you had some sort of "folder" so you could make a tile called GAMES and another tiles called OFFICE aso., you cpuld get some order in it, but as the tiles has to be so big it is just not very good or usefull IMHO. And every app has to be run fullscreen

, no more a little notepad window and a calculater window to help you when working, yrf.
Desktop view works good, but this is also very ugly with massive color-frames, no rounded corners (even XP had that) on windows, flat buttons. Why not keep this minimalistic windows as a sheme, and then let aero and other colorfull shemes be there too, so that people can CHOOSE FOR THEMSELFS!
Same with boot, why is there a lockscreen BEFORE I can type my password, why does it HAS to boot to Metro, and not to desktop? LET PEOPLE CHOOSE THEMSELFS!

And get the poor USB3 performance fixed, please.

R0bR · Jan 6, 2013

jimbo45 said:
I don't think Ms has anything to be worried about

I'm not going to quote everything Jimbo but very well said. Many on these forums don't realize how big of a product portfolio MS has, several of their software products, if spun off to their own business, would be in the top 50 largest software companies. MS isn't going anywhere.

R0bR · Jan 6, 2013

Ray8 said:
The fact that third party programs are so successful in addressing what people are seeking from the OS, is a clear indication that people are not happy with what Microsoft has delivered.

Oh give me a break, the 'having to install 3rd party software' excuse is such a crock. That's been the case and option for Windows releases with every iteration, XP users were up in arms because their hacks to theme Windows XP didn't work in 7. They wanted MS to provide the ability to theme out of the box or make it like XP. The forums were full of complaints until Stardock provided a solution, even then people complained they shouldn't have to use 3rd party tools.

Ray8 · Jan 6, 2013

R0bR said:
Oh give me a break, the 'having to install 3rd party software' excuse is such a crock. That's been the case and option for Windows releases with every iteration, XP users were up in arms because their hacks to theme Windows XP didn't work in 7. They wanted MS to provide the ability to theme out of the box or make it like XP. The forums were full of complaints until Stardock provided a solution, even then people complained they shouldn't have to use 3rd party tools.

Far from it, it's a significant indication of how people feel about the new 'start menu'. Themes are a completely different story to menus; themes are nothing but eye candy, menus are a fundamental part of how people work. It is the single biggest issue discussed by amateurs and IT professional alike, it's the elephant in the room. The fanboys can try and justify the status quo as much as they like, but it doesn't change the fact that it is the most hated aspect of Windows 8 above all else.

Night Hawk · Jan 6, 2013

Burgurne said:
jimbo45 said:

In any case windows 8 has some good features -- such as better hardware detection, good built in security, virtual ISO handling without the need for a 3rd party application, improved code optimisation, better touch screen operation,continuous file backup (via the HISTORY feature) etc . so if you can upgrade cheaply it's probably worth a shot. If you need a Hierarchical structure because you run a lot of complex applications then it's probably wiser to stay with W7.

Cheers
jimbo

Click to expand...

Yes, no need for a 3rd party application on ISO ... but many of us now need a 3rd party application for "fixing" the desktop a little, and aero is still missing!

No matter if Windows 8 is easier or more difficult to use, many think it is so ugly, f.i. me. "Metro" is ugly on a big monitor, and is not very well suited for a desktop PC. If you had some sort of "folder" so you could make a tile called GAMES and another tiles called OFFICE aso., you cpuld get some order in it, but as the tiles has to be so big it is just not very good or usefull IMHO. And every app has to be run fullscreen , no more a little notepad window and a calculater window to help you when working, yrf.
Desktop view works good, but this is also very ugly with massive color-frames, no rounded corners (even XP had that) on windows, flat buttons. Why not keep this minimalistic windows as a sheme, and then let aero and other colorfull shemes be there too, so that people can CHOOSE FOR THEMSELFS!
Same with boot, why is there a lockscreen BEFORE I can type my password, why does it HAS to boot to Metro, and not to desktop? LET PEOPLE CHOOSE THEMSELFS!

And get the poor USB3 performance fixed, please.

I think a pair of the largest issues most are having with 8 is the lack of options to customize things the way each wants them as well as how MS is attempting to use a mobile geared gui on several platforms which simply doesn't work for all too many with the need for any 3rd party app. The large Start screen button are avoided when simply getting that 3rd party app to run with Win 8 startup to "kill the Metro" as far as need for Start screen.

That is looking mainly at the surface not (MS)Surface Tablet with 8 and not so much at the core level where any improvements are realized. The core is where the upgrade is actually seen while the surface is rejected for the desktop platform by many. It's a toss up of if you do or do not need the other things 8 is bringing in with it.

Mostly the way MS went about bringing out 8 leaves people feeling as if the user has no say in anything! While those big buttons are "easy to use" most automatically find them ugly and older Windows users are baffled at what 8 looks like when first seeing but not even running 8. As to all the hand held devices now being seen and texting on phones having come in after Vista arrived that's one part of the equation you wouldn't be able to make any comparison to. It's mostly the effect on the desktop that is the turnoff.

labeeman · Jan 7, 2013

Another reason Windows 8 is a flop along with poor computer sales they are too cheap. LOL

PC prices must rise, not fall, to solve Windows 8's lousy start, analyst argues - Computerworld

Coke Robot · Jan 7, 2013

labeeman said:
Another reason Windows 8 is a flop along with poor computer sales they are too cheap.

PC prices must rise, not fall, to solve Windows 8's lousy start, analyst argues - Computerworld

That's the most deranged thing I've heard for many reasons. Laptop PCs aren't on two year contracts where you sign up for a new laptop every two years. They're durable goods that last AT LEAST four years if the hardware specs are decent. I know of several people that are still using their laptops that they bought with vista, with dual core processors, 3 or 4 gigs of RAM, and decent hard drive storage. They're either running Windows 7 or 8, a couple have replaced hard drives that failed or a battery. I think it's so stupid that analysts says that even though a new Windows release would good and hyped, PC sales still declined. Yeah, it's less costly to upgrade software than buying a new PC every few years. Such an idiotic notion that the average consumer has hundreds of dollars lying around to buy a new laptop JUST because there is a new Windows version. Gee...

Then there is the other thing that most people that buy an i5 powered laptop/ultrabook/tablet PC today probably won't be buying a new one for several years unless if somehow they get destroyed. Most people don't require high processing demands. Some do, and even still, future software versions will probably increase efficiencies to get the most out of the hardware.

Point is, PCs aren't like phabets or smartphones that need to be replaced biyearly because of a new OS version. android handsets do because the software is being coded like vista, it needs more powerful hardware just to operate. iphones need to be replaced every year because apple says so. A PC does NOT need to be.

Tepid · Jan 7, 2013

Actually Baker is right. What he and Paul are arguing is that people expect a $200 tablet to run like a $1500 Laptop.

It is something we used to have to deal with in customers coming in looking for a $199 Special Desktop several years ago.
We told them flat out, you don't sell junk, You can check the other guys, they may have one.

So, they are correct, the mindset today is, "If a Win8 Pro Tablet is going to cost me 1200 to 1300, that's a rip off, I'll just go get a netbook, ipad, nook or kindle."

What they don't realize is what you will get for the price.

This is the crux of the argument in that article...

Baker pinned Windows 8's inability to invigorate PC sales not so much on Microsoft, but on its OEM (original equipment manufacturer) partners who design, make and sell Windows PCs. Essentially, OEMs failed to convince enough buyers that notebooks with touch-sensitive screens -- hardware able to strut the new operating system's biggest innovation -- were worth their higher prices.

And I agree with this, It has not yet been advertised enough or poignantly to stress what a Win8 Pro Tablet is capable of.
But, then again, they aren't out in full swing yet wither.

Again, going back to, cheap is good enough, but they don't know what they are missing.

Also, OEM's need to start providing Proper Touch screens for precision for Win8 Pro, but not at a huge premium.
This, in this economy will not go over well.

I don't fully agree with the Prices must Rise thing just for the sake of raising prices and I think that got lost in this article a little bit,,, they need to provide better hardware and charge a little more, as well as raise their prices on the lower end stuff to make it more worth looking at the higher end stuff that people will actually get more out of.

I don't think this is about Laptops in general, as much as it is about Touch Screen Devices, laptops or otherwise.

With that said, I will repeat what I have said before, 2013 will be the year of touch.

As for the iPad in general, It's not that the hardware is better or worse than any other tablet for the price they charge, it's because it has that Half Eaten Apple Cut out with a light inside, and that my friend is the coolest thing ever and worth every penny.

Coke Robot · Jan 7, 2013

It's an argument, but there is also the fact these android tablets are 200 dollars. You can run apps like word document makers! Then there's the expectation of PC capabilities in such an impotent device. Then there is a 500 dollar ipad that some claim does what a laptop can do and third parties are trying to bridge that impotent gap.

Now enter in 800+ dollar Windows 8 tablet PCs. "It doesn't have a Facebook app or instagram! I'm not going to buy this! What a rip!" Then they go for an alternative and expect PC capabilities...

Then enter in touch laptop PCs. "Touch isn't ergonomic and no one is going to want to reach over to touch a screen! You can buy a better laptop!" Which makes little sense. But what doesn't make sense to me is that 300 dollar laptops do exist, though low end. Low end is fine for most people. Pop in a 200 dollar touchscreen, maybe a stylus. BAM! A 500 dollar touch PC, allows the best of a tablet that needed third parties for it to act like a PC, with a laptop that handles most needs just fine. Best of both, best of what Windows 8 is. Why this concept is so difficult for OEMs to understand is beyond me. Why they think touch is reserved for such high end, expensive ultrabooks makes no sense to me. They're already expensive as is.

SIW2 · Jan 7, 2013

Apple was down 6%. Not as bad as windows 11% drop - but still a drop.

How does that square with blaming oem rubbish that is going on.

Macbooks aren't cheap - didn't help.

However, look at their phone and pad sales - record Xmas for them.

Night Hawk · Jan 7, 2013

The one thing no one has looked at here so far is the slumped economy and people out of work! That will hinder sales of anything new when people do not have the old $$$ to toss at the latest! And then you look at a new tablet running upwards of $1,400 and say "I can't afford to toss that much just to get the new thing when I am hardly making ends meet!"

Earlier last year the latest Fruit company offering did however see masses in lines at retail outlets waiting to grab their own new IPxx 5 for $300 or so to have the latest and then came the holiday shopping season and suddenly... people ended up tightening the belts a bit more.

Windows 8's uptake falls behind Vista's pace

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