Uncontestable proof that "Metro" is touch only

[HippsieGypsie]

Thank you, pparks1. That was awefully nice of you.

The article is based on opinion rather than fact for the most part. He points out a few examples of what he thinks are flaws, such as the learning curve of where to find items such as the Control Panel and history. Things change.

It seems to me that no business will touch any new OS for some time, so no big news there. In fact it's a no-brainer.

This is typical Me generation thinking. "There's been a change and I don't like it. How can we ever cope?" Not to say that all in that generation think that way, but it seems to me he does. I'm even wondering if he has a precription for an antidepressant.

I don't have the time to expound, so I'll end with a quote from a commenter from the article page of whom I agree with.

Contrived

Whilst, I've no problem with your conclusion, I don't think the reasoning is illustrated well.

You're talking about touch on the desktop and m/k use in metro - the opposite of what's intended.

control panel is easy enough - power users will find out Win+X or right-click on start tip. The rest can do a search for it - typing no more than the letter 'C'.

"Stretching compatibility" - all applications developed for Win7 run fine in Win8 - that's NOT compatible?

Tablets need a clear business justification to not choose iPad? What does the iPad have that these won't? Even Windows RT will be more manageable than iPads (iPads don't have much beyond EAS policy enforcement). Businesses running a handful of apps don't care about 600,000 apps in an app store. They care that they can begin using their applications right now on an x86 tablet whilst metro-style equivalents are developed, that these same apps can be run from employees tablets and desktops (employee needs to only familiarise with one application that runs on any hardware).

Touch hardware will help too.

Minimal flipping back and forth between metro and desktop is needed.

I've made counter-comments but to be honest I don't want to, I'm not bothered by someone saying they don't like windows 8 but too much of this article is just "blaah, it's yucky I don't like it", rather than points fleshed out properly with examples. Only paragraphs 6 and 7 seem to have anything which could be remotely called an example.

 

[Arpan]

Thanks for the link pparks.

I read the article. Though I agree with Mr. Honeyball on some points, I'm afraid I can't agree at all here:

Any existing user will be tearing their hair out at this nonsense: the flipping backwards and forwards between Metro and the desktop, the lack of a Start button, the way all that history has been hidden away. Ask a user to find Control Panel and see the laptop being thrown into a nearby bin.

I'm an existing user and I'm not at all tearing my hair out :thumbdown:

Ask a user to find Control Panel and see the laptop being thrown into a nearby bin.

Is he kidding?? I'm afraid, he must have lost his mind while writing that line!!

 

[Arpan]

Contrived

Whilst, I've no problem with your conclusion, I don't think the reasoning is illustrated well.

You're talking about touch on the desktop and m/k use in metro - the opposite of what's intended.

control panel is easy enough - power users will find out Win+X or right-click on start tip. The rest can do a search for it - typing no more than the letter 'C'.

"Stretching compatibility" - all applications developed for Win7 run fine in Win8 - that's NOT compatible?

Tablets need a clear business justification to not choose iPad? What does the iPad have that these won't? Even Windows RT will be more manageable than iPads (iPads don't have much beyond EAS policy enforcement). Businesses running a handful of apps don't care about 600,000 apps in an app store. They care that they can begin using their applications right now on an x86 tablet whilst metro-style equivalents are developed, that these same apps can be run from employees tablets and desktops (employee needs to only familiarise with one application that runs on any hardware).

Touch hardware will help too.

Minimal flipping back and forth between metro and desktop is needed.

I've made counter-comments but to be honest I don't want to, I'm not bothered by someone saying they don't like windows 8 but too much of this article is just "blaah, it's yucky I don't like it", rather than points fleshed out properly with examples. Only paragraphs 6 and 7 seem to have anything which could be remotely called an example.

Thanks for quoting this brilliant comment, Tony. I agree with this comment hundred and ten percent. :thumbup:

I don't know if Mr. Honeyball wrote that control panel thing seriously. If he did ....... well, then he didn't use Windows 8 for more than an hour and he should have thought twice before writing that.

 

[Hopachi]

Thanks for the link pparks.

I read the article. Though I agree with Mr. Honeyball on some points, I'm afraid I can't agree at all here:

Any existing user will be tearing their hair out at this nonsense: the flipping backwards and forwards between Metro and the desktop, the lack of a Start button, the way all that history has been hidden away. Ask a user to find Control Panel and see the laptop being thrown into a nearby bin.

I'm an existing user and I'm not at all tearing my hair out :thumbdown:

Ask a user to find Control Panel and see the laptop being thrown into a nearby bin.

Is he kidding?? I'm afraid, he must have lost his mind while writing that line!!

Impossible! There are many ways in finding the control panel.
If you don't find control panel then maybe you should not use it, it's hidden so than normal users don't mess thing up so easily.

But as it seems some users really need voice control: you speak "control panel" and it should open...

 

[pparks1]

The article is based on opinion rather than fact for the most part. He points out a few examples of what he thinks are flaws, such as the learning curve of where to find items such as the Control Panel and history. Things change

Technically, Windows 8 works fine behind the scenes. But there will obviously be widespread opinions on how the desktop/start screen works. I cannot prove that 1 is better than the other, but I do know that one suits me and the way that I work a ton better. So, while it might be just my own opinion, it's more of a worthwhile metric for me when evaluating which to use than some facts.

It seems to me that no business will touch any new OS for some time, so no big news there. In fact it's a no-brainer.

It used to be that businesses didn't venture near a new OS until a service pack. However, the businesses I have been in, did have people move to Vista (before a SP) and there was fairly fast adoption of Windows 7 right out of the gate. But I haven't heard much about businesses going to Windows 8. Aside from my playing around with it, the company really hasn't looked at it, and doesn't seem to care about it whatsoever.

This is typical Me generation thinking. "There's been a change and I don't like it. How can we ever cope?" Not to say that all in that generation think that way, but it seems to me he does. I'm even wondering if he has a precription for an antidepressant.

This is a rather substantial change. Many don't really like it. Others do. I think this is more than being fearful of change. This is a fundamental questioning of whether this change is for the better or not.

 

[HippsieGypsie]

The easiest way for me is WinKey (brings up Start Screen) type c possibly o and maybe n -> enter. Or pointer lower left corner, right click mini Start Screen), guts menu.

 

[TerryE]

I'm no fan of TIFKAM myself but even an old fogie like me learns to adapt rather quickly.

The opinions on Windows 8 will vary far and wide: when XP was introduced some people hated it. Then when Vista came along some of those same people cried out "I hate Vista - don't take away my XP!" Surely some folks remember what a radical change Windows 95 was from Windows 3.x running under DOS but I haven't heard anyone wishing we still did things the Windows 3.x way.

I am staying with Windows 7 as my primary OS for a variety of reasons. I can't say that I "hate" Windows 8 but also cannot say that I "love" it. It's a different way of doing things, and I've gotten used to how it works, but I think it's a little too soon to jump in with both feet. That's why I love being able to run it as a VM: best of both worlds that way.

 

[Max Peck]

OK ... it's time that a developer chime in.

app bar != context menu. There is a reason the context menu comes up near the mouse pointer.

No ... not correct. "Context" means that the contents of the menu are based (as closely as possible) on the subject matter that is "in focus" where the mouse caret is located when right-clicked. The menu does not have to come up near the mouse but in most implementations does so for convenience. (A design idea I agree with, BTW). If the pop-up app bar has targets that perform functions that are based on the context from where the click took place, it too is a "context menu". If it does not, then it is not, regardless of its screen position. Proximity to the mouse caret does not make it a context menu.

Headache anyone?

-Max

 

[phailyoor]

OK ... it's time that a developer chime in.

app bar != context menu. There is a reason the context menu comes up near the mouse pointer.

No ... not correct. "Context" means that the contents of the menu are based (as closely as possible) on the subject matter that is "in focus" where the mouse caret is located when right-clicked. The menu does not have to come up near the mouse but in most implementations does so for convenience. (A design idea I agree with, BTW). If the pop-up app bar has targets that perform functions that are based on the context from where the click took place, it too is a "context menu". If it does not, then it is not, regardless of its screen position. Proximity to the mouse caret does not make it a context menu. Headache anyone? -Max

Taken literally, context menu means a context sensitive menu. In modern usage, it is often considered to refer to the specific user control that pops up near the mouse on a right click.

 

[pparks1]

The point about the "control panel" is pretty easily understood. People who aren't enthusiasts, probably don't come to this site, they haven't seen or used Windows 8 and they know nothing about the new metro/start screen layout.

When a person, with say 10+ years experience with Windows, sits down at the start screen they are faced with a bunch of tiles. I haven't found a single person YET, who natively knows to simply start typing to find an app (like the control panel). So, after a few seconds of scanning the tiles, they find Desktop. They click on it. It takes them to the "classic desktop". So, now they are over there, without a start button. Some people struggle trying to figure out how to get back to the tiles. Almost everybody I have seen use the OS without a tutorial gets stuck in the desktop. Sure, the Windows key on their keyboard "could" do it, but many don't use this key. And many don't drive the cursor to the extreme corners, the hot corners don't come up.

So, once you know a few tricks, getting to the control panel IS quite easy. But no doubt many might be confused at first and get frustrated with this new OS.

 

[jimbo45]

Here guys, it's the article. 10 seconds with Google.

Honeyball on Windows 8: it's a car crash | Enterprise | Real World Computing | PC Pro

Nice read -- thanks for the links

I'm sure everybody knows that there has to be some difference between using a "Tablet" / smartphone compared with serious use on a "Real classic computer" where the traditional desktop is still absolutely needed.

Windows 9 will undoubtedly solve this problem -- as in a few years companies who are just beginning to upgrade from XP==> W7 will be looking for their next upgrade. We do need to have some sort of choice -- Desktop / Metro / "Dogs legs mix of the 2" .

However for CONSUMERS W8 can be OK -- needs some messing around with to get it to work sensibly. I know people like Coke Robot probably use full screen apps all the time so Metro is a no brainer in his case -- but a lot of us work totally different -- we DO need a WINDOWED desktop - with multi monitor support etc.

I can honestly say that at the present time I don't know of a SINGLE large company who is even THINKING of upgrading their computers to W8. (Another reason Ms needs to make a distinction between home "Hobbyists" and Enterprise work users).

Cheers
jimbo

 

[Max Peck]

Taken literally, context menu means a context sensitive menu. In modern usage, it is often considered to refer to the specific user control that pops up near the mouse on a right click.

Ahh ... so you have to have the last word in this thread, eh? OK ... you did start the thread. You just re-stated what I already said!

 

[Arpan]

When a person, with say 10+ years experience with Windows, sits down at the start screen they are faced with a bunch of tiles. I haven't found a single person YET, who natively knows to simply start typing to find an app (like the control panel). So, after a few seconds of scanning the tiles, they find Desktop. They click on it. It takes them to the "classic desktop". So, now they are over there, without a start button. Some people struggle trying to figure out how to get back to the tiles. Almost everybody I have seen use the OS without a tutorial gets stuck in the desktop. Sure, the Windows key on their keyboard "could" do it, but many don't use this key. And many don't drive the cursor to the extreme corners, the hot corners don't come up.

So, once you know a few tricks, getting to the control panel IS quite easy. But no doubt many might be confused at first and get frustrated with this new OS.

You most certainly NEED TO KNOW a few tricks.

Its a bit of awkward feeling I get when somebody says "Why do you need to learn W8 to use it??".

My question is, if you haven't learned playing guitar, you can't expect somebody to just pick up the instrument and start playing it perfectly, can you??? Why go to guitar, lets take an example of any program in our pc. I don't know how to use Photoshop. Can you expect me to just install a Photoshop suite and start using it from the word go without any trouble?? I don't know programming in C++, can you expect me to just open an IDE and start coding??? This is childish!!!!

Can this be a point that if someone hasn't read any small tutorial or guide on Windows 8, he/she has to fumble a bit to go to control panel?? I mean this is once in a life, isn't it? Once you know how 8 functions you can find any app out, not just Control Panel.

Just because users will need to take 30 mins to get used to the new changes, Microsoft shouldn't be creative and they don't have the right to make changes in their OS like they have?? If they do make changes, for people like Jon Honeyball that becomes a car crash??

 

[pparks1]

My question is, if you haven't learned playing guitar, you can't expect somebody to just pick up the instrument and start playing it perfectly, can you???

But take a person who has played guitar for 10+ years. Now, rearrange all of the guitar strings and put them in a different order. So, when they try to play the guitar and struggle and complain...just assure them that they are "afraid of change". If there weren't complains or concerns, I would be convinced that they weren't really a guitar player in the first place.

 

[Arpan]

But take a person who has played guitar for 10+ years. Now, rearrange all of the guitar strings and put them in a different order. So, when they try to play the guitar and struggle and complain...just assure them that they are "afraid of change". If there weren't complains or concerns, I would be convinced that they weren't really a guitar player in the first place.

Control Panel isn't called Action Centre in Windows 8 and vice versa.

The strings haven't been rearranged. All the strings in the guitar are same as they were (Desktop). Only some extra strings are added (Metro or whatever they call it now) which you need to learn.

 

[pparks1]

The strings haven't been rearranged. All the strings in the guitar are same as they were (Desktop). Only some extra strings are added (Metro or whatever they call it now) which you need to learn.

But instead of the strings being made optional and put at one end of the other, they are placed in the center and people are being forced to use them. I'm just saying that I understand the concerns and the complaining, not necessarily that I agree or disagree with them.

 

[HippsieGypsie]

First off, it's simply not fair to present any OS to anyone without some instruction. There is a minor tutorial on hot corners when one is installing 8. I'm sure MS will further this in final releases, like "What's New" or "Let's Get Started" as in past OSs.

F1 has been around since I don't know when. Do enterprise IT teams know that? How about anyone that works in enterprise? Anyone that knows Windows and has half a brain knows that opens the Help file. If it was the very first time one turned on a computer that had a Windows OS installed, that would be a different story. I hate to be so blunt, but I'm sick and tired of reading the excuse that 8 is evil because of the learning curve. It may take a little longer to leasrn 8, but not impossible. Enterprise may fear it's cost for training, but 8 is a change just like any OS. Everything in the universe changes. It's a scientifically proven constant in Spacetime.

As soon as I type the period at the end of this sentance everything will have changed.

 

[pparks1]

First off, it's simply not fair to present any OS to anyone without some instruction.

Understood. But in the past, we have been able to rely on the fact that there is some type of Start menu system in the lower left corner. It's been that way since Windows 95. And some people really would like to keep it that way, but don't have a choice..so there are complaints. These complaints seem reasonable.

There is a minor tutorial on hot corners when one is installing 8. I'm sure MS will further this in final releases, like "What's New" or "Let's Get Started" as in past OSs.

Yes, that video change in the RTM was the best change I had seen in a while. But it could really be a lot longer.

F1 has been around since I don't know when. Do enterprise IT teams know that? How about anyone that works in enterprise? Anyone that knows Windows and has half a brain knows that opens the Help file. If it was the very first time one turned on a computer that had a Windows OS installed, that would be a different story. I hate to be so blunt, but I'm sick and tired of reading the excuse that 8 is evil because of the learning curve. It may take a little longer to leasrn 8, but not impossible. Enterprise may fear it's cost for training, but 8 is a change just like any OS. Everything in the universe changes. It's a scientifically proven constant in Spacetime.

Yes, we know that F1 exists.

So, new user installs OS, gets to desktop. Cannot figure out how to get back to Start screen. They hit the F1 key and get the help. What do they search on, because I've searched for "how to get back to start screen", "where is the start button", and I can't find anything helpful.

The cost to a business or enterprise for these types of changes will be significant. Documentation needs to be rewritten and updated for all of these visual changes, title changes and location changes. Many people who work with computers aren't enthusiasts or tech nerds. I believe you are oversimplifying greatly the costs of this training and the # of manhours this will actually take.

^However, I think the above is a moot point because most businesses are not going to go to Windows 8. They will stay on Vista or 7 and XP. This will alleviate them from having to build new desktop OS images, prevent them from having to test and support Windows updates on Windows 8, prevent additional expense from licensing of Windows 8, etc. 8 simply doesn't provide them with anything advantageous over 7 to get them to deal with an upgrade. If nothing else, it just presents more problems and confusion.

 

[Arpan]

I can agree that 8 may not provide businesses anything advantageous over 7 but that certainly doesn't mean 8 is bad or car crash. Its a good os. Businesses might not feel 8 worth upgrading. Thats fine. But does this make 8 bad?

 

[pparks1]

I can agree that 8 may not provide businesses anything advantageous over 7 but that certainly doesn't mean 8 is bad or car crash. Its a good os. Businesses might not feel 8 worth upgrading. Thats fine. But does this make 8 bad?

Bad in these cases is purely subjective. From a functional standpoint, it's a fine OS. Runs good, good on system resources, and faster than previous versions of Windows in many respects. But if people don't want to use it, perhaps because they hate the new UI, or not having a start button...or not wanting to flip back and forth from the desktop to the new Start Screen....they will say it's bad.