My slightly-above average users first time Windows 8 experience

[pparks1]

I don't think it's a bad thing to have IE tiles on the Start Screen, where ever you feel like having them easily accessible is where ever you want it to be. No one says that you can't have IE tiles on the Start Screen and no one is saying that it's a bad thing. You seem to make it out as a bad thing.

Practical example. I'm a systems admin for a living. I spend a great deal of time reading stuff on the web and then bookmarking sites that I may need to visit at a later time. Perhaps something interesting about a product we use, or I thought of trying out. I have a bookmark to the oil change procedure for my car. I look it up every 5,000 miles to get my filter # and remember what size drain plug wrench I use. I just looked and I easily have 200 bookmarks in Chrome. I don't want these things on my Start Screen, I don't go to them on a daily basis. in fact, I may not go to them ever. But I want someplace to note them for future reference. IE10 metro version doesn't give me any option here, except to fill up the start screen.

And when you install said programs and see a group of tiles, you can easily arrange what you need and unpin what you don't.

Don't you have to unpin them 1 at a time. So, let's say I install a program like Office and it creates 15 tiles. I can unpin the 13 that I don't want in Metro, or in the Start menu, I can click on Word and Excel and send them to the desktop. Seems like picking the 2 that I want is quite a bit less time consuming than removing the 13 that I don't.

The MAIN difference here is that YOU SEE THE PROGRAM'S START ENTRIES. Why do you suppose pretty much every start menu on a large majority of user's PCs are nothing but folders and folders with the default All Programs entries? Not many look at it or bother to clean it up as they don't see it or have a notion to do so. If you see it, you will do something about it. That's why I think it's better. It's makes the user more aware of what's on their PC and do something about it. If they don't like to have all those tiles, they can remove them.

The tiles or the program folder entries only get on there when people install software. So, by installing all of this software, they really cruddy up their PC's, using up disk space, system resources for services, startups, etc. I don't see where having a cleaned up Start Screen really makes anything better. So what, they deleted 85 tiles they won't use. The apps, registry files, the program caches, the services, and all the rest of the cruft are still on the PC. If people actually gave a damn about what was on their PC, they wouldn't install of this garbage in the first place.

And no, it's not obvious to close the apps. But when it becomes obvious after told or shown or stumbled upon, that problem is solved.

But it sure is fun watching the people sit there with a full screen metro app and all say, "uh, I think I screwed something up", because they cannot figure out how to close the application. They have been able to close any app since Windows 3.1 and now cannot figure it out on their own without being shown. Talk about non-intuitive.

In fact, I've been told that's one of the coolest things Windows 8 does and I've seen peoples' reactions to me showing how to close an app, they seemed delighted for some odd reason.

Wow, I certainly have a hard time believing that. I won't say you are lying, but I will say that this isn't the response that I have gotten from anybody. Most people say, and I quote "WTF...are you kidding me".

And no, I bet after a while people will get a hang of it.

Absolutely they will. But does that mean that it's better, or makes them more productive? I've gotten used to using Metro apps and the Start screen...but I don't use the Metro version of IE. I feel that it's crap, plain and simple. I want something that I can utilize bookmarks in and resize the browser window to have multiple things opened at once. No amount of getting used to Windows 8 is going to provide that to me. For that, I must switch over to the classic desktop and use the "old-school" IE. I can navigate around the new Start Screen, but I don't really use it at all. I use it long enough to find my apps, pin them to the taskbar and use the Desktop.

I don't know, but Office 2013 isn't a web based application. It's a 963 MB program suite

My bad, i thought you said the Office web apps and Skydrive.

And yes, the consumer crowd seems more likely to use the Cloud as they don't see a bad side to it as they don't tend to be paranoid about everything. Some find it as a better alternative to physical media as I've been told a horror story involving tax forms and three failed forms of backup media every tax season for three years straight until a cloud option was introduced.

Would you really want your tax forms in the cloud? Maybe that is better suited to not being available to others. And some cloud storage (hint Skydrive), don't include a recycle bin. So, let's say that i put my backup files in skydrive, and whoopsie daisy I accidentally deleted them. Yep, they are gone.

Even still, on a tangent side note, I don't get the huge deal about the cloud. Many will gather just to say, "Oh the cloud? Oh it's terrible. I don't get privacy and I don't own anything anymore."

I'm a cloud user, but not for everything. Some things aren't worth risking the company getting hacked and my info getting out. Some things are important and I need them in multiple places, so they are encrypted with things like BoxCryptor. For many, the cloud simply isn't feasible due to upload speeds by their ISP's and bandwidth caps.

I don't have a Surface tablet unfortunately, but I do have a picture of it. And based off the picture, people are liking it, as some here are.

So, based on the picture, it's a tablet with a keyboard. Guess they would be equally impressed with an iPad and the keyboard dock, or an Asus Transformer prime with the keyboard dock. So, they are very interested in buying a tablet with a physical keyboard. <--- Can't say that I blame them for wanting a physical keyboard, even though the excitement around Windows 8 is the "touch interface".

I personally wet my pants over how a new UI looks and feels, are you suggesting something here? I don't know, to me it seems the average consumer crowd just goes with the flow.

yeah, they buy any ole thing that they are told is cool. Many don't hardly research a darn thing, they just get it and accept the fact that it does what it does. Meanwhile, they might not even realize that another product was available that fit their needs even better, and perhaps was cheaper, or had a better warranty, or would last longer, or was not made in China, etc. While I can appreciate a nice UI, it's gotta have functionality or what is the point. < That's what I find myself saying everytime I show anybody the metro version of IE. Sure it's pretty, but maybe not very useful if you like to bookmark or not run full screen.

what's going to attract their attention the most considering this hypothetical person isn't an isheep, a fandroid, or a Microsoft fanboy? I say the Start Screen and the new tablet PCs and the new Windows 8 PCs in general. Why? It's something radically new and different.

Shiny and new, that's how Apple does it. Nevermind how it actually functions or works, does it look cool? You are saying that this is the driving force, eh?

They will, after some simple introduction, be more intrigued by the fact you can have apps on a PC like on your phone, that it's new, it looks and acts different, but still has the ability to act like your PC you have at home, but different and better.

Until they get their Surface RT home and then try to install Firefox or Google Chrome on it, or any other third party app they use that won't actually work under RT. Then they realize they have to "rebuy" software they already had because once again they cannot load it under RT.

But having said all this, I do also enjoy the conversing about Windows 8 as it does seem like a totally different product is being talked about.

Awesome, I mean no offence with any of my comments. I just fail to see the super awesome nature of Windows 8.

And I honestly feel, that the iPad and the iPhone are going to continue to remain supreme long after the Surface Tablet and Windows 8 hit the market. The apple products are as much a status symbol as they are a functional device. The app support is where Apple has it right now. Try to convince the Apple crowd otherwise. And the Apple crowd in this space is not just 1 or 2 blind fanboys, as this register story says:

Apple's market share boomed in the second quarter of the year, with Cupertino accounting for 69.6 per cent of all tablets shipped globally

Storming quarter sees Apple reassert tablet dominance ? The Register

Even with one of the most expensive products, 7 of every 10 tablets sold is an iPad. I really hope that the Windows Surface tablet can gain some marketshare and become a serious contender. I just have my doubts. I've talked to numerous people at work who were up for cell phone renewals and without even looking at options they knew they wanted the iPhone and didn't even stop for 1 nano second (pun intended) to even realize there was a Windows phone. And the 2 people who I know who actually use iPhones, are pretty much laughed at by all of my other friends on Facebook or in person. It's like the 1 guy at my job who absolutely adores Blackberry. The rest of us just chuckle, while he thinks it's the best thing ever.

 

[Coke Robot]

I don't think it's a bad thing to have IE tiles on the Start Screen, where ever you feel like having them easily accessible is where ever you want it to be. No one says that you can't have IE tiles on the Start Screen and no one is saying that it's a bad thing. You seem to make it out as a bad thing.

Practical example. I'm a systems admin for a living. I spend a great deal of time reading stuff on the web and then bookmarking sites that I may need to visit at a later time. Perhaps something interesting about a product we use, or I thought of trying out. I have a bookmark to the oil change procedure for my car. I look it up every 5,000 miles to get my filter # and remember what size drain plug wrench I use. I just looked and I easily have 200 bookmarks in Chrome. I don't want these things on my Start Screen, I don't go to them on a daily basis. in fact, I may not go to them ever. But I want someplace to note them for future reference. IE10 metro version doesn't give me any option here, except to fill up the start screen.

And when you install said programs and see a group of tiles, you can easily arrange what you need and unpin what you don't.

Don't you have to unpin them 1 at a time. So, let's say I install a program like Office and it creates 15 tiles. I can unpin the 13 that I don't want in Metro, or in the Start menu, I can click on Word and Excel and send them to the desktop. Seems like picking the 2 that I want is quite a bit less time consuming than removing the 13 that I don't.


The tiles or the program folder entries only get on there when people install software. So, by installing all of this software, they really cruddy up their PC's, using up disk space, system resources for services, startups, etc. I don't see where having a cleaned up Start Screen really makes anything better. So what, they deleted 85 tiles they won't use. The apps, registry files, the program caches, the services, and all the rest of the cruft are still on the PC. If people actually gave a damn about what was on their PC, they wouldn't install of this garbage in the first place.

But it sure is fun watching the people sit there with a full screen metro app and all say, "uh, I think I screwed something up", because they cannot figure out how to close the application. They have been able to close any app since Windows 3.1 and now cannot figure it out on their own without being shown. Talk about non-intuitive.

Wow, I certainly have a hard time believing that. I won't say you are lying, but I will say that this isn't the response that I have gotten from anybody. Most people say, and I quote "WTF...are you kidding me".



Absolutely they will. But does that mean that it's better, or makes them more productive? I've gotten used to using Metro apps and the Start screen...but I don't use the Metro version of IE. I feel that it's crap, plain and simple. I want something that I can utilize bookmarks in and resize the browser window to have multiple things opened at once. No amount of getting used to Windows 8 is going to provide that to me. For that, I must switch over to the classic desktop and use the "old-school" IE. I can navigate around the new Start Screen, but I don't really use it at all. I use it long enough to find my apps, pin them to the taskbar and use the Desktop.

My bad, i thought you said the Office web apps and Skydrive.


Would you really want your tax forms in the cloud? Maybe that is better suited to not being available to others. And some cloud storage (hint Skydrive), don't include a recycle bin. So, let's say that i put my backup files in skydrive, and whoopsie daisy I accidentally deleted them. Yep, they are gone.


I'm a cloud user, but not for everything. Some things aren't worth risking the company getting hacked and my info getting out. Some things are important and I need them in multiple places, so they are encrypted with things like BoxCryptor. For many, the cloud simply isn't feasible due to upload speeds by their ISP's and bandwidth caps.

So, based on the picture, it's a tablet with a keyboard. Guess they would be equally impressed with an iPad and the keyboard dock, or an Asus Transformer prime with the keyboard dock. So, they are very interested in buying a tablet with a physical keyboard. <--- Can't say that I blame them for wanting a physical keyboard, even though the excitement around Windows 8 is the "touch interface".

yeah, they buy any ole thing that they are told is cool. Many don't hardly research a darn thing, they just get it and accept the fact that it does what it does. Meanwhile, they might not even realize that another product was available that fit their needs even better, and perhaps was cheaper, or had a better warranty, or would last longer, or was not made in China, etc. While I can appreciate a nice UI, it's gotta have functionality or what is the point. < That's what I find myself saying everytime I show anybody the metro version of IE. Sure it's pretty, but maybe not very useful if you like to bookmark or not run full screen.

Shiny and new, that's how Apple does it. Nevermind how it actually functions or works, does it look cool? You are saying that this is the driving force, eh?

Until they get their Surface RT home and then try to install Firefox or Google Chrome on it, or any other third party app they use that won't actually work under RT. Then they realize they have to "rebuy" software they already had because once again they cannot load it under RT.

But having said all this, I do also enjoy the conversing about Windows 8 as it does seem like a totally different product is being talked about.

Awesome, I mean no offence with any of my comments. I just fail to see the super awesome nature of Windows 8.

And I honestly feel, that the iPad and the iPhone are going to continue to remain supreme long after the Surface Tablet and Windows 8 hit the market. The apple products are as much a status symbol as they are a functional device. The app support is where Apple has it right now. Try to convince the Apple crowd otherwise. And the Apple crowd in this space is not just 1 or 2 blind fanboys, as this register story says:

Apple's market share boomed in the second quarter of the year, with Cupertino accounting for 69.6 per cent of all tablets shipped globally

Storming quarter sees Apple reassert tablet dominance ? The Register

Even with one of the most expensive products, 7 of every 10 tablets sold is an iPad. I really hope that the Windows Surface tablet can gain some marketshare and become a serious contender. I just have my doubts. I've talked to numerous people at work who were up for cell phone renewals and without even looking at options they knew they wanted the iPhone and didn't even stop for 1 nano second (pun intended) to even realize there was a Windows phone. And the 2 people who I know who actually use iPhones, are pretty much laughed at by all of my other friends on Facebook or in person. It's like the 1 guy at my job who absolutely adores Blackberry. The rest of us just chuckle, while he thinks it's the best thing ever.

Fantastic, you have just figured out what usage scenario works best for you. I have favorites bookmarked that I don't go to often as they're puter parts I'm tracking down or some other random thing. But, I for the sites I go to frequently, I have them pinned onto Start and use the metro IE. If I need to go to a bookmark I don't have a clue what the site or name of the bookmark is, I simply right click, and go to the Desktop IE and find it in the Favorites bar. I will bet that will change with IE 11. I do have to agree that the metro IE isn't likely to take over the Desktop version. Heck, the Windows Phone's IE 9 can!

Not really, it would take 13 right clicks to get rid of the tiles you don't want to see. The two you want on the taskbar can be easily done while you're removing the 13 tiles. But that depends on how one arranges their Start Screen. I don't have clutter I won't use, as that's why I don't have it pinned to Start or even have it in All Apps screen. Don't want it, don't need it, don't want to see it.

I would say true, installing a crapton of software will bog down a puter. I'll mention you can right click on a Desktop app to uninstall it and it takes you to the Control Panel to uninstall it. Granted though, it doesn't highlight the program that you wanted to install for some odd reason. Maybe an update will fix it? Still, Windows 8 isn't an OS that will get crudded down. If the user pays slight attention to Action Center's notification icon on the taskbar, it'll tell the user that there are apps that are slowing down Windows' startup. There's also Automatic Maintenance that does away with CCleaner and related utilities as I've never seen Windows 8 suffer over time from winrot or anything of such. Even with the Developer Preview and on, boot time has been solid, consistent, and each release slims down boot time a hair. This is considering an amount of software gets installed too. It's even more solid than 7.

It seems unintuitive at first, but it's something SO simple it makes any hardcore user feel stupid. I for one at first had to log out of Windows to shut it down with the Developer Preview until a few days later I realized the power setting was in the Settings charm.

As for tax documents in the cloud, as long as you're not cheating on them and the government isn't hardcore spying on you, you should be fine! I would imagine one would be REAL careful about those sorts of things though. And yeah, I think a Recycle Bin would be best as it integrates user experience and enables a fail safe.

For me, I want to be able to back up my documents, pictures, and music safely. I can risk the video collection, although if I happen to lose terabytes of digital film, I will quietly weep for days. But if I lost my documents and pictures and music that I've tediously organized, that would be the worst. I might go deranged and live in them hills for the rest of my life.

I doubt the few I've shown the Surface too would go over to an ipad, mostly because those few I've shown it to have asked me about which laptop is the best and asked me about what to look for in a laptop. I suggested a Surface Pro tablet, and they would be interested in buying one, IF it came out sooner than December which it will. Office and Photoshop and AutoCAD and iTunes to mange ipods would be NEXT to impossible on an ipad. Serious, you need an external device to manage a device that some boobs call a PC. WOW....

And I'm not saying it's shiny and new is the ONLY thing to sell for Windows 8, having the ability to run Office and have apps that you might have on your phone on your PC shows its flexibility. It's not only a fun touch system, but a productivity system, YES, it is a productive system. Having two in one is better than having three different devices. And, a very unique UI makes it nice too.

I would hope the sales person and Microsoft's labeling does a good job at getting across that WinRT tablets aren't software compatible like normal PCs, or then yes, your situation will happen.


I will say that I don't really get the bitterness that some have with Windows 8. It seems almost like hysteria, no offense.

I like this argument that apple will continue to remain mainstream. Yes, apple has dominated the tablet field, HAS. You know why, they were the only ones to enter into the tablet battlefield first when everyone else just did nothing. android can be argued is better, but it obviously isn't if only 3 out 10 tablets sold might be android. They're the only ones, just like what happened when the built their first PC, no one else did. apple just seems to take advantage of what companies aren't doing and taking a few good ideas and clashing them together and calling it a revolution and innovation. You know what happened with the macs? That's right, almost no one uses them enough to be considered significant. Heck, ios will pull ahead of mac os soon. That is sad. After a while, what is cool isn't cool anymore and what is considered a status symbol stops being significant. It's like a trend, like furbies and those awful crocs people wore a decade ago. They seemed cool since everyone had them and they stopped being cool. That's what I see will happen with the ipad and apple. The PC people had in the 80s was a mac, until Windows. The PC people had in the 90s was a Windows based PC. The PC people still have today is a Windows one, and the one that is threatening the user base is muddled down smartphone OS on a 10 inch screen.

You really can't convince apple user's otherwise, it's like trying to get someone that lived through a communist dictatorship to believe capitalism is great. You really can't, or at least it's difficult. That's the apple user right there, the communist follower. (And I do make these claims based off the fact that apple's business model seems to ring a bell that only Soviet communism can ring.) A blond, twitter, facebooking chick that chews a lot of gun and eats very little won't give up her iphone. Just won't happen. But there is the group that do use apple products like the ipad or iphone that use it because everyone says it's great but really isn't. That's the best group to lead over to a Windows tablet. When practicality sets in and hype goes away, logic is in control. If you need a little expensive toy for your cat to play with, an ipad is for you. If you need something that gets things done, a Windows 8 tablet PC is for you. That's what Windows has ALWAYS been about, getting things done. Windows 8 just continues that trend. It's why people choose a PC over a mac, price, practicality, and being able to do things with it as you've always had been able to for years and years.

But blackberries on their deathbed in the consumer crowd. You can't market an enterprise staple for consumers, it's like trying to sell an army helicopter to a suburban family. As for the iphone upgrading, it's preposterous. Like I've said before, people say it's great, people say it's the best and it becomes the standard. Why? I don't know. Maybe it's the thousands of apps to waste Sunday afternoons with to entertain yourself like a simpleton. I will never trade my Nokia Lumia 900 (which by the way, might stop a bullet from killing me) running Windows Phone EVER. NEVER. I would rather die from the bullet that kills than do that. I had an itouch once, wasted almost 340 dollars for an 8 gig model, only to have it be effectively worth 200 dollars AT BEST in two and half months. apple to me means wasted money. It was fun for a while, it kind of made me want an iphone until it dawned on me what a waste that would be and how overhyped it is. I don't really remember when that moment happened, but I think it was long before I discovered Windows Phone. Interesting, I was fed up with ios and apple and wouldn't ever use an android phone, and somehow Windows Phone found me...as if it were meant to be....

I bet the Windows tablets take over ipad, unlike Windows Phone, there are a plethora of OEMs and VERY LONG partnerships and established delivery routes to stage Windows PC on. I also bet Windows Phone 8 will emerge this time around. If people are willing to waste 500+ dollars for nothing because of their use of an iphone or idevice, that SAME thing will happen. You can find a few people curious about WP 8 on this here forum because they are liking Windows 8. So, we'll see. Just to leave a mental image, picture the Death Star blowing up in Star Wars Episode VI with the Millennium Falcon flying past, that's apple in the background....

 

[DooRules]

That's pretty funny thinking the windows tablet will overtake the ipad. I would submit not in our lifetime, like it or not.

Seems like you also have your expectations in the clouds bud.

 

[Coke Robot]

I WILL MAKE IT HAPPEN. :shock:

 

[jimbo45]

Hi there
Actually ONCE I had got the system into some sort of "Useable" Format the tiles can be arranged logically and by including some folders containing links to your application sub menu equivalents it's really not too bad especially using keyboard short cuts.


I'm rather surprised but it IS actually quite useable.

The REAL effort of course is in arranging the Metro stuff to start with -- and THAT is where the difficulties will start.

People will have quite a job in getting their systems organised properly -- It took me around 2 hours before getting a decently useable system on W8.

Installing a simple app on Android etc is OK --but as I posted earlier things like Visual Studio and and Adobe Master collection generate 100's of tiles and it's a LOT of work sorting this out into a sensible layout.

This will be the key or otherwise the success to W8's future -- better tools to help people order the tile workspaces - and PLEASE some more customisation rather than having them all the same which means it's difficult to find what you are looking for once you start getting a large collection of tiles.

For example it would be nice to have the different GROUPS say in diifferent Background colours.


Cheers
jimbo

 

[pparks1]

As for tax documents in the cloud, as long as you're not cheating on them and the government isn't hardcore spying on you, you should be fine!

That's missing the point entirely. In the US, if you tax return were to be hacked and made available to the right person, you are in for a major headache. Your addresses, your employers, the amount of money you make, your social security number, your occupation are all there for somebody to steal your identity.

I like this argument that apple will continue to remain mainstream. Yes, apple has dominated the tablet field, HAS. You know why, they were the only ones to enter into the tablet battlefield first when everyone else just did nothing. android can be argued is better, but it obviously isn't if only 3 out 10 tablets sold might be android.

This kinda proves my point. Even though something could be better, the public flocks to the iPad. Making matters worse, these same people have and love their iPhones. If these people are carrying an iPhone, and its time to buy a tablet, you can bet they are going to look at iPad first...or only at iPad. If for no other reason because they have purchased apps from the Apple store already, why would they get a Windows tablet and have to repurchase apps for their tablet that they already bought for their phone?

You really can't convince apple user's otherwise, it's like trying to get someone that lived through a communist dictatorship to believe capitalism is great. You really can't, or at least it's difficult. That's the apple user right there, the communist follower.

So, explain to me again how the Microsoft surface tablet is going to change the mind of 70% of the consumer market that has an iPad. Heck, I'd bet 20% of the people who went with something other than an iPad simply did it because they hate Apple. So, you've said nearly 3 out of 4 people have their minds already made up and changing it will be horrendously difficult.

I bet the Windows tablets take over ipad, unlike Windows Phone, there are a plethora of OEMs and VERY LONG partnerships and established delivery routes to stage Windows PC on. I also bet Windows Phone 8 will emerge this time around. If people are willing to waste 500+ dollars for nothing because of their use of an iphone or idevice, that SAME thing will happen. You can find a few people curious about WP 8 on this here forum because they are liking Windows 8. So, we'll see. Just to leave a mental image, picture the Death Star blowing up in Star Wars Episode VI with the Millennium Falcon flying past, that's apple in the background....

Well, I'm interested to see if you are right. I'm in the complete opposite camp, I don't think that either the Surface tablet or the Windows phone are going to put any substantial dent into the iPhone and iPad market. Just like the Microsoft Zune didn't have any impact on the MP3 player market. It's market share is equivalent to a possum fart in a hurricane. You would simply never even know it's there.

 

[Coke Robot]

Hi there
Actually ONCE I had got the system into some sort of "Useable" Format the tiles can be arranged logically and by including some folders containing links to your application sub menu equivalents it's really not too bad especially using keyboard short cuts.


I'm rather surprised but it IS actually quite useable.

The REAL effort of course is in arranging the Metro stuff to start with -- and THAT is where the difficulties will start.

People will have quite a job in getting their systems organised properly -- It took me around 2 hours before getting a decently useable system on W8.

Installing a simple app on Android etc is OK --but as I posted earlier things like Visual Studio and and Adobe Master collection generate 100's of tiles and it's a LOT of work sorting this out into a sensible layout.

This will be the key or otherwise the success to W8's future -- better tools to help people order the tile workspaces - and PLEASE some more customisation rather than having them all the same which means it's difficult to find what you are looking for once you start getting a large collection of tiles.

For example it would be nice to have the different GROUPS say in diifferent Background colours.


Cheers
jimbo

You're finding the Start Screen can be usable? I need a pig, I think it turned blue and started to fly...

I'm actually also surprised at how long it took you to get it going. I usually average 15 minutes TOPS arranging, pinning and unpinning tiles. It gets quite organized I say.

Just to add to the conversation, if there were different color of groups, one might end up having a rainbow for a Start Screen. And if I may suggest, you could get rid of a few tiles on Start to even things up. The inner CDO inside me wants to remove the VLC Skinned player tile, Picture manager, and Clip organizer. I don't know why.

 

[Coke Robot]

As for tax documents in the cloud, as long as you're not cheating on them and the government isn't hardcore spying on you, you should be fine!

That's missing the point entirely. In the US, if you tax return were to be hacked and made available to the right person, you are in for a major headache. Your addresses, your employers, the amount of money you make, your social security number, your occupation are all there for somebody to steal your identity.

I like this argument that apple will continue to remain mainstream. Yes, apple has dominated the tablet field, HAS. You know why, they were the only ones to enter into the tablet battlefield first when everyone else just did nothing. android can be argued is better, but it obviously isn't if only 3 out 10 tablets sold might be android.

This kinda proves my point. Even though something could be better, the public flocks to the iPad. Making matters worse, these same people have and love their iPhones. If these people are carrying an iPhone, and its time to buy a tablet, you can bet they are going to look at iPad first...or only at iPad. If for no other reason because they have purchased apps from the Apple store already, why would they get a Windows tablet and have to repurchase apps for their tablet that they already bought for their phone?

You really can't convince apple user's otherwise, it's like trying to get someone that lived through a communist dictatorship to believe capitalism is great. You really can't, or at least it's difficult. That's the apple user right there, the communist follower.

So, explain to me again how the Microsoft surface tablet is going to change the mind of 70% of the consumer market that has an iPad. Heck, I'd bet 20% of the people who went with something other than an iPad simply did it because they hate Apple. So, you've said nearly 3 out of 4 people have their minds already made up and changing it will be horrendously difficult.

I bet the Windows tablets take over ipad, unlike Windows Phone, there are a plethora of OEMs and VERY LONG partnerships and established delivery routes to stage Windows PC on. I also bet Windows Phone 8 will emerge this time around. If people are willing to waste 500+ dollars for nothing because of their use of an iphone or idevice, that SAME thing will happen. You can find a few people curious about WP 8 on this here forum because they are liking Windows 8. So, we'll see. Just to leave a mental image, picture the Death Star blowing up in Star Wars Episode VI with the Millennium Falcon flying past, that's apple in the background....

Well, I'm interested to see if you are right. I'm in the complete opposite camp, I don't think that either the Surface tablet or the Windows phone are going to put any substantial dent into the iPhone and iPad market. Just like the Microsoft Zune didn't have any impact on the MP3 player market. It's market share is equivalent to a possum fart in a hurricane. You would simply never even know it's there.

I see your point with the cloud. That is true, as a recent article has been surfacing around about a guy whose digital life was hacked and all...

Now, I disagree, android tablets aren't better than the ipad usability wise. I can't see why people would want them. It's just....what? It's like a dumbed down Desktop UI mashed with ios mashed with some random tidbit from Windows Phone and maybe Windows 8. What does an android tablet do better than an ipad? If both can accomplish the same menial tasks, I'll take what everyone else is having and that would be ipad, hypothetically. Never doing that personally. See, I think you're looking at the tablet market as a niche device market. People will end up buying a tablet, but they will end up buying a PC. Why? Because a PC does things a tablet can't and a tablet does things that is easier to do than a PC. When it comes to buying a tablet and this person is familiar with ios, they might go with an ipad. But, if they need to buy a PC because a tablet compromises too much (you need to plug both an iphone and ipad into a mac or PC to manage effectively), that person will DEFINTELY come across the Windows 8 tablet PC. Unlike android tablets were they get the odd aisle in the store whereas the ipad gets the main display, PCs get the WHOLE main section of the store. Shoot, a best buy has just half the store JUST for PCs and PC related parts. And when that person sees what a tablet PC can do over an ipad, like plugging in their iphone and using iTunes, they will choose that over the ipad. PCs aren't going anywhere, this is for sure. It's why people still buy laptops, they're PCs and PCs are FAR more capable than simple large touch screen ipods.

Now, I don't have actual statistics on this, but I do have history. People were once using macs in its heyday way back in the 80s and early 90s. What happened? People started to use Windows, developers built more software for the PC. The PC became mainstream over the mac, where it has turned into a hipster wannabe niche market that doesn't churn new users fast enough. I'm saying that practicality trumps status symbol. A Swiss Army knife is better than having the sharpest kitchen knife to do the same a Swiss Army knife can do better as it has more to it than just a sharp blade. Yes, some will NEVER give up their ipad, as they won't with their mac, iphone, their ipod from every release year, or their itv, or whatever idevice. I don't know if one can say for sure that a person that bought an ipad had their mind made up. Superficially yes, but past that, what else is there to choose from. android? Yeah, ok....What I'm saying is that the ipad user crowd just hasn't been exposed to what ELSE is out there.

Now, the Zune was a great product when the hardware got better. I never had one, but I've used some, WAY better than my itouch I had. Gah, if only I knew about it before....oh wait, that's right. I didn't. The Zune wasn't a bad product, it was a MARKETING failure. How many ipod commercials have you seen in your life versus a Zune advert?

And unless Microsoft gets serious about marketing, the Windows Phone might be victim of their poor marketing. It's a great product, users love it, but not many know about it. That started to change this year with Nokia and their Lumia 900. Literally, it's first time I've EVER seen a large banner in a cellular retailer promoting Windows Phone. No others EVER did. And as Microsoft is putting all their chips into Windows 8 and Windows Phone 8, they better prove it with marketing. So far, it's turning around. Honestly, I was very impressed with their Surface debut trailer. If they continue that trend and continue HARDCORE, and not in just select markets, things will turn out great. A good business fails not because of bad products or service, it can fail because NO ONE has ever heard of them. No advertising, no awareness, no customers, no money.

I personally believe Windows Phone 8 will make a HUGE dent in the android market, as android is already turning into a digital disease and is outgrowing ios and related devices. The one thing that will win over android 2.3.2.4.45214.1.4.13 users: usability. A HUGE chunk of the android market is a bunch of crappy midrange phones that are running a deathly version of android that is about over two years old. I've convince MANY a people that Windows Phone 7 is better than their android phone simply because it's easier to use, easier to navigate, easier to communicate with, better build quality, and doesn't cause frustration and anger over laggy and shoddy performance. The iphone market I don't think will win over many users, but it might win over the crowd that is fed up with apple and their communism and just don't want to use android.

 

[pparks1]

Now, I disagree, android tablets aren't better than the ipad usability wise. I can't see why people would want them.

This one is easy
1). Offered in different sizes and configuration. Some don't like the Apple, 1 size fits all approach.
2). Cheaper options. Some think iPad's cost too much
3). It's not Apple. Some simply avoid Apple products at any cost.

PCs get the WHOLE main section of the store. Shoot, a best buy has just half the store JUST for PCs and PC related parts.

That's because they come in many different sizes and configs. Unlike Apple where they are only a few models, and you cannot buy Apple hardware and assemble your own.

People were once using macs in its heyday way back in the 80s and early 90s. What happened?

Apple was in the market first with a pc. They never had huge marketshare. I still know lots of people using macs today. Even some of my IT friends, who are windows users and windows admins, are carrying MacBooks as their primary laptops these days.

Now, the Zune was a great product when the hardware got better. I never had one, but I've used some, WAY better than my itouch I had. Gah, if only I knew about it before....oh wait, that's right. I didn't. The Zune wasn't a bad product, it was a MARKETING failure. How many ipod commercials have you seen in your life versus a Zune advert?

Partially a marketing failure. Nobody wanted the Zune because it wasn't an iPod. iPods became synonymous with the term mp3 player, and now people just refer to portable MP3 players as iPod's. Kids and others want iPod's because that is what everybody else uses, it's the device with the most add-on peripherals in the stores.

And unless Microsoft gets serious about marketing, the Windows Phone might be victim of their poor marketing.

Might be the victim of poor marketing? Might? I think it flat out is. When I mention a Windows phone to most people, they nearly laugh. It's sad really, they give it about as much thought as a Blackberry.

I've convince MANY a people that Windows Phone 7 is better than their android phone simply because it's easier to use, easier to navigate, easier to communicate with, better build quality, and doesn't cause frustration and anger over laggy and shoddy performance.

But then they talk to their friends and facebook friends and coworkers and find virtually nobody with a Windows phone. They don't want the phone nobody else has.

The iphone market I don't think will win over many users, but it might win over the crowd that is fed up with apple and their communism and just don't want to use android.

that's exactly the market that Windows phone will get. I just don't think it's a big market.