Is Start Menu really matter?

[sgage]

I'm finding as time goes on, the majority of people that complain about not having a start menu are just people that have used it for 15 or more years, that doesn't change without people throwing their hands up in the air. Now, is the Start Screen better than the menu? From my experience personally and seeing how others have used Windows 7 shows yes. It is better. When people figured out how to pin things to the Taskbar, the need for the Most Frequently Used list of the menu becomes redundant. A typical laptop resolution can have over 16 items pinned to it, which is more than what the MFU lists can display. Most of those usually have jumplists that are used. Usually after that, the All Programs list becomes a once in a blue moon adventure, I honestly can't say if it's ever used or not from what I can gather. If something needs found, it's either in the MFU list and not pinned to the Taskbar, or just searched for with a text query. Or sometimes, people just keep shortcuts on the Desktop and use those, basically how Windows has been used since like Windows 2 and 3. I know I PERSONALLY used the start menu quite often. I preferred having items pinned to the Taskbar of the programs I used often. I didn't use the MFU list as I kept the All Programs neat and tidy and could find things pretty quickly when needed. Shoot, I was thinking about doubling the size of the Taskbar and pinning EVERY program I had installed onto it, which would make the start menu UTTERLY pointless...

Now, there are a very slim group of people that probably use the Taskbar pins and the start menu in conjunction. There is a small group of people that do use the All Programs list as they have their poop in a group and have things organized to find a program that they don't use too often. That's them, that's not the overwhelming group of everyone else.

I just helped build a budget gaming rig for a friend of mine who is a HARD CORE PC gamer, the kind that has actual shelves full of PC game disks, along with a huge collection of Steam games. He went for Windows 8 as he really doesn't get why people are complaining about a start menu that he never used. And this is true, looking at his start menu, I can see why he just used the Desktop shortcuts as that was a MESS! In a Start Screen environment, those Desktop shortcuts become tiles on the Start Screen, of which can be organized neatly, things can be unpinned if needed, grouped, and further tweaked with a couple of third party tools. The Start Screen effectively becomes the original purpose of the Desktop, of that being just being the launcher of programs. It's visual like the Desktop, except different.


But honestly, people did complain when Windows 95 came out and forced people to use the start menu. People complained about the Luna UI design of xp being crap to the old school UI. People did complain when vista condensed this preposterous fly-out start menu that took over the whole Desktop if large enough and condensed it down into this small little scroll menu. There were even people that complained about the new Taskbar in Windows 7 saying just that they didn't like it. In retrospect, people adopted the use of the start menu. People adopted the use of the newer start menu in xp. People adopted and defend the vista style start menu. People adopted the use of the new Taskbar in 7. And in all new UI changes, people just took advantage of the new over the old. Do you see people complaining and trying to disable the start menu in Windows these days like in 95? No. Was it easy to disable the start menu in 95? Yes. But did matter five years later with 98 or 2000? Not really.

You talk about majorities of people doing this, and slim minorities of people doing that. Do you have any data? I didn't think so. You are merely projecting, simply making it up. The way everyone in this useless discussion does.
Please, Metro lovers, simply leave it alone, and accept that, e.g., Metro simply doesn't work for many serious PC users. Why the constant psychoanalyzing? You do your thing your way, and I'll do my thing my way. But this constant over-analysis based on nothing is getting very, very tiresome.

Can't we just give it a rest?

I don't I need to be showing data when Microsoft, the makers of Windows, have already shown the data; of which some people call BS on just because they don't like the Start Screen.

I say the same, stop assuming you simply can't use Windows 8 for anything serious and we can be off on our merry ways. What I used to do with 7 I can do that same easier and better with 8. If you don't want to see that and state fallacies on something you're not fully aware of, then no amount of reasoning or logic or data or proof can obviously show otherwise.

In other words, you have no data.

But never mind - I didn't say Windows 8 was useless for getting work done - I was talking about Metro. I've tried very hard to make sense of the apps for a typical workflow, and just don't see it. Again, on a tablet or something, probably some utility.

I think part of the futility of this "debate" is equating 'Windows 8' with 'Metro'. I've always said the Desktop is a good Windows. I use a 3rd party start menu. All is well.

Metro is useless on a desktop system with a large screen and no touch. Maybe it works for you - more power to you.

 

[Coke Robot]

You talk about majorities of people doing this, and slim minorities of people doing that. Do you have any data? I didn't think so. You are merely projecting, simply making it up. The way everyone in this useless discussion does.
Please, Metro lovers, simply leave it alone, and accept that, e.g., Metro simply doesn't work for many serious PC users. Why the constant psychoanalyzing? You do your thing your way, and I'll do my thing my way. But this constant over-analysis based on nothing is getting very, very tiresome.

Can't we just give it a rest?

I don't I need to be showing data when Microsoft, the makers of Windows, have already shown the data; of which some people call BS on just because they don't like the Start Screen.

I say the same, stop assuming you simply can't use Windows 8 for anything serious and we can be off on our merry ways. What I used to do with 7 I can do that same easier and better with 8. If you don't want to see that and state fallacies on something you're not fully aware of, then no amount of reasoning or logic or data or proof can obviously show otherwise.

In other words, you have no data.

But never mind - I didn't say Windows 8 was useless for getting work done - I was talking about Metro. I've tried very hard to make sense of the apps for a typical workflow, and just don't see it. Again, on a tablet or something, probably some utility.

I think part of the futility of this "debate" is equating 'Windows 8' with 'Metro'. I've always said the Desktop is a good Windows. I use a 3rd party start menu. All is well.

Metro is useless on a desktop system with a large screen and no touch. Maybe it works for you - more power to you.

Reflecting on your comments on the Start screen - Building Windows 8 - Site Home - MSDN BlogsEvolving the Start menu - Building Windows 8 - Site Home - MSDN Blogs

Never said I had no data, congratulations on putting words in my mouth!

 

[SIW2]

You can present any figures any way you like to achieve your goal.

That doesn't mean the start screen/metro stuff is good on a desktop.

It absolutely is not.

Stevie S does mention 3rd party programs there too.

This peculiar idea that people do not use the start menu is floating about.

It is plainly wrong. Just by the amount of posts on forums and start menu replacements out there - it is pretty obvious.

Metro is very poor for desktop use.

It is there to cope with the limitations of small screens and touch only. It probably does a reasonable job for at that.

Windows 8 — Disappointing Usability for Both Novice & Power Users (Jakob Nielsen's Alertbox)

Windows 8 UX: Weak on Tablets, Terrible for PCs

You don't have those limitations on a desktop/laptop.

 

[Mystere]

You can present any figures any way you like to achieve your goal.

Dude. First you demanded data, then you taunted about not having data. When data was presented, you claim data is useless.

Your bluff was called. You lost. Don't keep pretending.

 

[SIW2]

I didn't demand any data. Neither did I taunt about not having data.

I made a general point about Cokie's posts - I like the enthusiasm , he is sometimes funny. He seems totally besotted with things MS and touch.

 

[Coke Robot]

You can present any figures any way you like to achieve your goal.

That doesn't mean the start screen/metro stuff is good on a desktop.

It absolutely is not.

Stevie S does mention 3rd party programs there too.

This peculiar idea that people do not use the start menu is floating about.

It is plainly wrong. Just by the amount of posts on forums and start menu replacements out there - it is pretty obvious.

Metro is very poor for desktop use.

It is there to cope with the limitations of small screens and touch only. It probably does a reasonable job for at that.

Windows 8 — Disappointing Usability for Both Novice & Power Users (Jakob Nielsen's Alertbox)

Windows 8 UX: Weak on Tablets, Terrible for PCs

You don't have those limitations on a desktop/laptop.

You can present subjective third party opinions all you like, but it doesn't refute the notion that the Start Screen is better and faster, as well as being more feature rich, than the start menu.

And this is what I mean, it's at the point where no matter WHAT is presented to argue this case, there will be ALWAYS someone or something that won't ever recognize or acknowledge it.

 

[sgage]

You can present any figures any way you like to achieve your goal.

Dude. First you demanded data, then you taunted about not having data. When data was presented, you claim data is useless.

Your bluff was called. You lost. Don't keep pretending.

Who are you, Coke Robot's sock puppet? But if you were referring to me...

I asked for data. CR said he didn't need any data, and that since I'm such a hater (which I'm not) it wouldn't matter. He could have just presented his "data" (MSDN blog posts) right then and there. I don't claim data is useless - I just didn't see any.

I had no bluff to be called. I didn't lose anything. And I'm not pretending anything. This is just childish jibbering. This place is getting to be more like a schoolyard than a serious tech forum.

You talk about taunting - the taunting started with the Start Screen enthusiasts here essentially claiming that if you didn't like the Start Screen and preferred a Start Menu you were:

- afraid of change
- incapable of change
- a dinosaur
- just not getting with the program
- etc., etc.

This nonsense has been going on since the very beginning, and is both untrue and very offensive. That's all I've been trying to point out in this thread and a couple of others on this forum.

If you like the Start Screen, fine. It is no threat to me or those of us who prefer to use one of the several Start Menu solutions being offered by 3rd parties. But keep the patronizing insults to yourself, that's all I ask.

 

[Mustang]

You can present any figures any way you like to achieve your goal.

Dude. First you demanded data, then you taunted about not having data. When data was presented, you claim data is useless.

Your bluff was called. You lost. Don't keep pretending.

Who are you, Coke Robot's sock puppet? But if you were referring to me...

I asked for data. CR said he didn't need any data, and that since I'm such a hater (which I'm not) it wouldn't matter. He could have just presented his "data" (MSDN blog posts) right then and there. I don't claim data is useless - I just didn't see any.

I had no bluff to be called. I didn't lose anything. And I'm not pretending anything. This is just childish jibbering. This place is getting to be more like a schoolyard than a serious tech forum.

You talk about taunting - the taunting started with the Start Screen enthusiasts here essentially claiming that if you didn't like the Start Screen and preferred a Start Menu you were:

- afraid of change
- incapable of change
- a dinosaur
- just not getting with the program
- etc., etc.

This nonsense has been going on since the very beginning, and is both untrue and very offensive. That's all I've been trying to point out in this thread and a couple of others on this forum.

If you like the Start Screen, fine. It is no threat to me or those of us who prefer to use one of the several Start Menu solutions being offered by 3rd parties. But keep the patronizing insults to yourself, that's all I ask.

Says it all.


Fanbois suddenly becme clairvoyants and can see what people who don't like W8 are doing on their PCs. And use unsubstantiated generalities to try and prove why people who don't like Metro are out of line.

That kind of irrational thinking is as nutty as a fruit cake.

 

[shane88]

I don't see why everyone is so upset when there is start menu programs out there. I think all this energy should be focused more on coming up with a solution to bringing back aero transparency glass. With that back Windows 8 would be a true feature complete OS with many options for all types of users.

 

[Queenmarylady]

Not liking 8 so far and it has been about 3 weeks now. It came per-installed on my new pc. Previously was using Vista Home. It's a leap. As another said, just shutting down was something I had to google how tos on without pushing the power off button. I am seriously considering getting a for dummies or similar book and have been using a pc since win 95 so long ago and just about every version since then. Why should I have to take lessons or read a book to learn a whole new operating system?? I just want to power on and go! Too much searching in the "charms" or how- tos.
I'm also not liking how 8 does the photos, no more right click to delete , now I gave to go to the bottom of the image, find the delete button there...it doesn't seem simpler, seems like extra steps. (Sigh)

 

[Ray8]

Just install Classic Shell (or one of the others) and you will never have to use the Modern interface again. Everything will work like Windows 7, but with the underlying structure of Windows 8. Eventually Microsoft will do this themselves, as the Modern interface is simply not great for desktop use.

 

[jimbo45]

Hi there
Peeps c'mon

Please before people start saying a) is useless or b) is fine just remember people work and use computers in totally different ways.

Now I would suggest for example if you are translating two / three documents and need also to incorporate or copy data from another then quite clearly you need either windowed applications or SEVERAL monitors or a combination of both as surely even the most AVID believer in Metro would realize you need to be able to view all these objects at THE SAME TIME.

So METRO in some situation is clearly not suitable for these types of applications --that doesn't mean to say that it's no good for watching movies etc.


Now the other idea of just having an endless pile of tiles to select your application is also a pain when you have a lot of complex applications which have loads of sub options and sub sub options -- this is why for these types of applications you need a HIERARCHIAL structure -- I don't care if this is done in TILES (which it isn't currrently) or via a traditional Start menu.

Since nobody has come up with Hierarchical Tiles ( for instance I should be able to click on say a Tile Visual Studio and then this tile would expand VERTICALLY DOWN with the sub options --create Visual C project etc etc) thee only other practical option is to use a menusing system which people have developed and is working NOW.

I'd be quite happy to use a Tiling system and the new start screen if it incorporated the VERTICAL DROP DOWN - but since that option isn't available (yet) then people of course will pander for the Start menu.

What I can't do reasonably on W8 is to endlessly scroll to find an application or repeatedly have to use the SEARCH. I don't work like that and I certainly don't want to clutter the desktop or quick launch taskbar with zillions of programs either --that defeats the whole object of those anyway. I've also tried with varying degrees of success or lack of it to re-arrange tiles in some concerted order -- but for the work I do the new Start screen is really "Not Fit for Purpose" -- but that's in MY case --for others its fine.

If people only have a few applications and only really use the computer for surfing, "Farcebook / twatting on twitter" etc , Skype, email / music playing and movie / TV watching then Windows 8 in its current set up is perfectly fine --although if that's all these people are doing on a computer a tablet might be a better choice for them.

I'm still testing out other things in W8 --there are plenty of decent things in W8 -- but for the moment it's not going to be my "Daily Work OS" -- W7 is still fine for that.

I think the people who can't understand what the fuss about really don't actually understand how some people use their computers and what their workflow is like.



compare this MESS with the start menu (using start menu 8 )

cheers
jimbo

 

[HippsieGypsie]

Good grief! How long are we going to hash this subject?! For those that don't know me, I'm a fanboi. I like 8 for various reasons of which I won't go into here. All I'll say is that the Modern UI does not get in the way of what I use a desktop PC for. In fact, I find it more useful, but that's me.

As usual, I will stress the market viewpoint. 8 is a "transitional" OS. I don't think MS is so stupid as to forget the enterprise sector. Although there is an Enterprise Edition and that some businesses will adopt it doesn't necessarily mean it's aimed at the business sector market. I can see where it doesn't fit some productive business scenarios, as some here have mentioned. Two major points I read is that the Start Screen takes one away from the desktop portal and the hierarchical problem of the Start Screen.

The "taking one away from the desktop" scenario can be overcome by the taskbar and desktop shortcuts, which has always been an option. 3rd party Start Menu installation is another alternative. But then again, I'm not big on making 8 something it isn't. It is what it is.

I think the hierarchical problem can be overcome by adding libraries in File Viewer to open programs that way. Of course, this takes one away from the desktop unless in a minimized view.

I don't know all the solutions, but you can bet your bippie that 8 is aimed at an ever growing, demanding, and money-making PAD and smart phone market, which obviously demands a touch UI.

From what I read from the Pros here is that most businesses are either using XP, Vista, or 7, or are about to upgrade to 7, which will be supported for quite awhile. How can MS lose here?

So, generally I believe 8 is aimed at the general public consumer who generally uses a device for consumption, not creation. I think MS has a 9 or 10 in mind for the business sector. I think they hear your request for the Start Menu return, but personally I don't think you'll get it back. I think it will be some other form of menu.

Make 8 what you want it to be, but bottom line, it is what it is.

 

[mdmd]

A mess?



A mess?

 

[mdmd]

endlessly scrolling

 

[Mustang]

Pointless discussion. Dog chasing it's own tail.

Better get used to it fanbois, this is just the tip of the iceberg of an endless number of posts criticizing W8 simply because people prefer the old way ... no matter how logical/illolgical or how much you demonstrate new way or disagree with them.

 

[Mustang]

I don't see why everyone is so upset when there is start menu programs out there. I think all this energy should be focused more on coming up with a solution to bringing back aero transparency glass. With that back Windows 8 would be a true feature complete OS with many options for all types of users.

If you use Ex7ForW8 to import Explorer 7 shell from Win7 installation disk, you get Aero glass at same time as Orb Start Menu; and direct boot to desktop; and bonus is Metro is totally gone when running Explorer 7 shell. However, you can switch to Explorer 8 shell and still use native 8 set up; and your desktop shortcuts are still there.

That way, you get the best of both worlds, good and bad, in the order shown above.

 

[Queenmarylady]

Just install Classic Shell (or one of the others) and you will never have to use the Modern interface again. Everything will work like Windows 7, but with the underlying structure of Windows 8. Eventually Microsoft will do this themselves, as the Modern interface is simply not great for desktop use.

Thank you Ray8! =) Downloading and trying it now. :thumb:

 

[SIW2]

Yes. it's a lot of extra steps and massive amounts of extra mouse travel. Worse than useles on a desktop.

Fortunately, you can get use a 3rd party solution.

Ridiculous that users feel the need to do that. MS just expected users to put up with it.

It is lucky for MS those 3rd party programs are available. This thing would have had even less take up if it were not for them.

Not liking 8 so far and it has been about 3 weeks now. It came per-installed on my new pc. Previously was using Vista Home. It's a leap. As another said, just shutting down was something I had to google how tos on without pushing the power off button. I am seriously considering getting a for dummies or similar book and have been using a pc since win 95 so long ago and just about every version since then. Why should I have to take lessons or read a book to learn a whole new operating system?? I just want to power on and go! Too much searching in the "charms" or how- tos.
I'm also not liking how 8 does the photos, no more right click to delete , now I gave to go to the bottom of the image, find the delete button there...it doesn't seem simpler, seems like extra steps. (Sigh)

 

[shane88]

I don't see why everyone is so upset when there is start menu programs out there. I think all this energy should be focused more on coming up with a solution to bringing back aero transparency glass. With that back Windows 8 would be a true feature complete OS with many options for all types of users.

If you use Ex7ForW8 to import Explorer 7 shell from Win7 installation disk, you get Aero glass at same time as Orb Start Menu; and direct boot to desktop; and bonus is Metro is totally gone when running Explorer 7 shell. However, you can switch to Explorer 8 shell and still use native 8 set up; and your desktop shortcuts are still there.

That way, you get the best of both worlds, good and bad, in the order shown above.

Are you sure about that ? Last time I checked I didn't think it gave me transparent aero glass on window borders.

"These bland ugly colors have to go, their a distraction and stick out like a sore thumb. At least the aero glass made it translucent so your programs stuck out more and not the window borders. I want alittle shine to my OS and not have it dull and unappealing"