Solved Here's what I think would fix Windows 8:

[Ray8]

Ok Ray, I have to say, you obviously don't work in the corporate world of consistent Desktops. They are very few and far between, Rare to say the least. They need to be locked down to really keep that consistency and that is rare as well.

Seriously, I can attest to this fact as I have been around the corporate world for a long time as an IT Professional.

You would be surprised as to how many users have no clue what the start menu is, where the start button is or how to use it.

Or try anywhere between 20 and 100+ icons on the desktop cause they have no idea how to use Documents/My Documents
Or finding files saved on root C drive or in the root of their profiles or windows, it is far more common than you think.

Trust me when i say, the vast majority of plain jane and joe user don't use the start menu and have very little knowledge of it.
this is a fact, not opinion.

I've spent more than 30 years in the corporate environment and locked down PCs are not few and far between. They are locked down for security reasons, ease of update and consistency of use. But that's beside the point. What I'm hearing is, regardless of the number, because Microsoft sees the world being full of dumb users, everyone's user experience has now been dumbed down to that of the lowest common denominator. Way to go Microsoft!

 

[HippsieGypsie]

MS keeps data on users habits through their Customer Experience Improvement Program (CEIP): Microsoft Customer Experience Improvement Program

That depends on how many people overall subscribe to the CEIP, I certainly don't and I'd suggest that dedicated users don't either. The ones that do, are the ones that allow any program they install to add a desktop icon and never read the fine print of anything they install. If that's where Microsoft got their idea that no one uses the start menu, then I think they have a slightly distorted view of the world.

Remember also that in the corporate world, every user has a desktop image that is consistent and all programs are predominantly accessed via the cascading menus. I would also hazard a guess that corporate system also don't subscribe to the CEIP. That's where are the vast majority of Windows licences deployed.

So Microsoft has decided to ditch a perfectly functional menu system, based on the laziness and lack of knowledge of a proportion of Windows users, in favour of a menu system used by Android and iOS devices.

Ray, do you live with a lot of paranoia? Geez. What's going on there in OZ?

MS is an American corporation that is regulated by a body that upholds the strictest of rules and ethical codes. The CEIP is not an evil or spying program. It simply collects user data and sent to MS for statistical purposes. That is all. Here's the link to the description and "The fine print":

Microsoft Customer Experience Improvement Program

Privacy Statement for the Microsoft® Customer Experience Improvement Program

I think you base decisions on your experiences and not on the "real world" statistics. None of our experiences are the "real world". Our experiences may be what develops who we are, but it is not the "real world". We also only have a limited perception and knowledge of the "real world" called our consciousness.

The "real world" stats of MS's OSs are collected by MS through various channels, not just the CEIP. If you would have taken the time to read this: Reflecting on your comments on the Start screen - Building Windows 8 - Site Home - MSDN Blogs you might have seen this:

In addition to the CEIP program, we have a wide variety of channels to our corporate customers to understand their needs. For example, we collect feedback continuously during direct engagement with customers (such as during on-site visits and in our briefing centers around the world), from advisory council and early-adopter program members, and at public events such as TechEd and //build/. We also work closely with industry analysts (via consultations and their research) and execute a wide range of our own research studies directly. From these interactions, we know the kind of functionality and control that enterprises want over the Start menu and we are definitely taking these into account as we are designing and developing the changes for Windows 8.
When you look at the data, we can see that enterprise customers do, in fact, have some different experiences with their Start menus:

• While 81% of home users have the default links like Control Panel, Games, and Documents on right hand-side of the Start menu , fewer than 2% of our enterprise customers have this experience.
• Most people have removed some items in this part of the Start menu (with Games and Media Center entry points most often removed).
• Enterprise users are launching pinned Start menu apps 68% more often than home users, but the usage of pinned items is still less than 10% of the sessions.

 

[Mystere]

You said this:

Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately), the vast majority of people do not agree with you.

Agreeing, being the use of pop-up or cascading menus. There was no love in your statement.

There's this thing in communication called "context". It takes into account the flow of a conversation. Taking one phrase, and twisting the context is dishonest and stupid. Everyone can see it.

What the reality is is this:

To start with, I personally love popup menu lists which can expand certain folders or whatnot when they're highlighted.

Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately), the vast majority of people do not agree with you.

Note how I included the "context" of the discussion. Note how Wrend stated he "loves" popup menus, and I responded by saying that the majority of people do not agree with him.

So please take your dishonest arguing tactics elsewhere, Ray.

 

[Fredledingue]

You're not understanding what the design term of metro is...

No. Definetly not. Your snapshots are nice and pretty. But if I want a website I use CSS rich HTML documents...

 

[Tepid]

Ok Ray, I have to say, you obviously don't work in the corporate world of consistent Desktops. They are very few and far between, Rare to say the least. They need to be locked down to really keep that consistency and that is rare as well.

Seriously, I can attest to this fact as I have been around the corporate world for a long time as an IT Professional.

You would be surprised as to how many users have no clue what the start menu is, where the start button is or how to use it.

Or try anywhere between 20 and 100+ icons on the desktop cause they have no idea how to use Documents/My Documents
Or finding files saved on root C drive or in the root of their profiles or windows, it is far more common than you think.

Trust me when i say, the vast majority of plain jane and joe user don't use the start menu and have very little knowledge of it.
this is a fact, not opinion.

I've spent more than 30 years in the corporate environment and locked down PCs are not few and far between. They are locked down for security reasons, ease of update and consistency of use. But that's beside the point. What I'm hearing is, regardless of the number, because Microsoft sees the world being full of dumb users, everyone's user experience has now been dumbed down to that of the lowest common denominator. Way to go Microsoft!

Do you even hear yourself? It's not just Microsoft. It's everywhere. Look at Android, ChromeOS, look at Games in general? Talk about dumbing down. It's literally EVERYWHERE you look. Look at any of todays sitcoms, they are downright stupid. Not funny, literally stupid. Reality shows that play to the lowest common denominator. It's not JUST MS. Look at public schools, look at OWS. There is your classic dumbing down of all peoples everywhere.

And we live in a world of top countries that live with abundance. Abundance breeds complacency which breeds laziness, which breeds stupidity.

So, did I agree that MS is dumbing down the OS? Yes, to a degree more, but they ahve been doing that since 95 hit PC's.

Not to mention, so has Linux and Apple and pick an OS that is still being used and developed.

 

[Ray8]

There seem to be around three people on this forum that go possibly well beyond what would be expected of anyone, to defend Microsoft and especially Windows 8, over any criticism levelled against it. When people are even accused of paranoia, simply because they elect not to participate in Microsoft accessing your user habits, then it becomes even more suspicious.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but the near evangelical fervour with which some defend Windows 8 over the smallest criticism, smacks of the work of loyal Microsoft employees, or those with a vested interest in Microsoft. Get used to criticism, there are going to be a lot of people that will be critical of Windows 8; getting their backs up by saying that they are wrong, is not the way to win over new customers.

I repeat what I said some time earlier, the fact that Classic Shell, Start 8 and several other programs are garnering such interest, where people are willing to pay to get rid of the 'Microsoft Way', is clear evidence that the Microsoft Way is not palatable. Defend it as much as you like, it's not going to change things, but more people will begin to question your motives for refusing to acknowledge that it's not they who are wrong, but Microsoft.

 

[Mystere]

There seem to be around three people on this forum that go possibly well beyond what would be expected of anyone, to defend Microsoft and especially Windows 8, over any criticism levelled against it. When people are even accused of paranoia, simply because they elect not to participate in Microsoft accessing your user habits, then it becomes even more suspicious.

I already told you, Ray. The martyr routine is getting old. You are deliberately insulting people, calling them names, twisting their statements, and then you have the gall when people call you on it to accuse them of being paid shills for pointing out your nonsense. You think you're being subtle, but you're not. You're about as subtle as water buffalo.

Most "criticism" of Windows 8 falls down to personal preference, not any real fault with the OS. You don't *LIKE* the way something works, so you invent reasons to support your personal preference, and when we rightly call you on your invented excuses, you pull the martyr routing again. Oh woe is you, you're just spreading gods given truth and you're being crucified for it. Here's an idea, stop making up excuses to justify your personal preferences.

If you have a *REAL* issue, then by all means. I'm willing to discuss it, but if you keep pulling the crap like taking things out of context, you're going to keep getting argument.

 

[labeeman]

There seem to be around three people on this forum that go possibly well beyond what would be expected of anyone, to defend Microsoft and especially Windows 8, over any criticism levelled against it. When people are even accused of paranoia, simply because they elect not to participate in Microsoft accessing your user habits, then it becomes even more suspicious.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but the near evangelical fervour with which some defend Windows 8 over the smallest criticism, smacks of the work of loyal Microsoft employees, or those with a vested interest in Microsoft. Get used to criticism, there are going to be a lot of people that will be critical of Windows 8; getting their backs up by saying that they are wrong, is not the way to win over new customers.

I repeat what I said some time earlier, the fact that Classic Shell, Start 8 and several other programs are garnering such interest, where people are willing to pay to get rid of the 'Microsoft Way', is clear evidence that the Microsoft Way is not palatable. Defend it as much as you like, it's not going to change things, but more people will begin to question your motives for refusing to acknowledge that it's not they who are wrong, but Microsoft.

Just for your opinion Ray8 where would M$ be with Windows 8 if there were no shell programs to ease customers anger. Would there be a lot of returns or would they just blow it off. As it is the OEM most likely are taking the heat.

 

[lehnerus2000]

MS keeps data on users habits through their Customer Experience Improvement Program (CEIP): Microsoft Customer Experience Improvement Program

From what I understand they saw that hardly any used the Start Menu, for they used the Task Bar and shortcut keys. Personally I didn't use the menu much. I've always opted in on the CEIP. Perhaps enterprise would not rather opt to it? I don't know. Pros here may. I'm a novice. Here's a read that may help to answer that: Reflecting on your comments on the Start screen - Building Windows 8 - Site Home - MSDN Blogs

I always turn it off.
I assume that business images are created with it turned off.

The real questions are:

• What settings do OEM machines use?
• How do you turn it on/off after installing Windows?

 

[Ray8]

Just for your opinion Ray8 where would M$ be with Windows 8 if there were no shell programs to ease customers anger. Would there be a lot of returns or would they just blow it off. As it is the OEM most likely are taking the heat.

I suspect that the criticisms would be louder than ever. People have been made aware of Classic Shell etc for some time, as it was one of the first things to be criticised when the previews came out.

The shrill cries (I'm not referring to you) seem to be getting louder all the time. It's like people's own children are being criticised and called ugly or something.

Makes you wonder.

 

[pcRat]

Ok Ray, I have to say, you obviously don't work in the corporate world of consistent Desktops. They are very few and far between, Rare to say the least. They need to be locked down to really keep that consistency and that is rare as well.

Seriously, I can attest to this fact as I have been around the corporate world for a long time as an IT Professional.

You would be surprised as to how many users have no clue what the start menu is, where the start button is or how to use it.

Or try anywhere between 20 and 100+ icons on the desktop cause they have no idea how to use Documents/My Documents
Or finding files saved on root C drive or in the root of their profiles or windows, it is far more common than you think.

Trust me when i say, the vast majority of plain jane and joe user don't use the start menu and have very little knowledge of it.
this is a fact, not opinion.

I've spent more than 30 years in the corporate environment and locked down PCs are not few and far between. They are locked down for security reasons, ease of update and consistency of use. But that's beside the point. What I'm hearing is, regardless of the number, because Microsoft sees the world being full of dumb users, everyone's user experience has now been dumbed down to that of the lowest common denominator. Way to go Microsoft!

Do you even hear yourself? It's not just Microsoft. It's everywhere. Look at Android, ChromeOS, look at Games in general? Talk about dumbing down. It's literally EVERYWHERE you look. Look at any of todays sitcoms, they are downright stupid. Not funny, literally stupid. Reality shows that play to the lowest common denominator. It's not JUST MS. Look at public schools, look at OWS. There is your classic dumbing down of all peoples everywhere.

And we live in a world of top countries that live with abundance. Abundance breeds complacency which breeds laziness, which breeds stupidity.

So, did I agree that MS is dumbing down the OS? Yes, to a degree more, but they ahve been doing that since 95 hit PC's.

Not to mention, so has Linux and Apple and pick an OS that is still being used and developed.

Shame shame shame here we live in a time where technology is replacing formal education and common sense. Not all schools teach her fifth and reading any more. Calculators are required for school. Back in the sixties when I was in school, peel clues were forbidden with the question of "If you don't learn math, while we do when you're typing it quits working?"
In today's technology world, during a power failure a cashier is not allowed to write a list and make sales using a calculator. Instead, they're told to tell everyone they cannot make sales, have customers put merchandise on the counter & leave store. My manager had no problem with me making sales & keeping the list but, forbid me from doing it in the future because she would lose her job.

So a few more years & people will be printing their signature to legal documents or signing with an X again. The more forward we go… the further behind we go.

 

[labeeman]

MS keeps data on users habits through their Customer Experience Improvement Program (CEIP): Microsoft Customer Experience Improvement Program

From what I understand they saw that hardly any used the Start Menu, for they used the Task Bar and shortcut keys. Personally I didn't use the menu much. I've always opted in on the CEIP. Perhaps enterprise would not rather opt to it? I don't know. Pros here may. I'm a novice. Here's a read that may help to answer that: Reflecting on your comments on the Start screen - Building Windows 8 - Site Home - MSDN Blogs

I always turn it off.
I assume that business images are created with it turned off.

The real questions are:

• What settings do OEM machines use?
• How do you turn it on/off after installing Windows?

On all the OEM installs that I have done Windows ask that question on the first boot and I always answer NO I do not trust M$.

 

[DavidY]

MS keeps data on users habits through their Customer Experience Improvement Program (CEIP): Microsoft Customer Experience Improvement Program

I must admit I've always opted out of this up to now. My bad.

I've just switched it on again (turns out it's within Action Centre in Control Panel), so I can have "Why doesn't Microsoft understand the way I use Windows?" -style rants with a clearer conscience.

 

[lehnerus2000]

Ok Ray, I have to say, you obviously don't work in the corporate world of consistent Desktops. They are very few and far between, Rare to say the least. They need to be locked down to really keep that consistency and that is rare as well.

So you don't use a standard image rolled out via the server?

 

[lehnerus2000]

Ray, do you live with a lot of paranoia? Geez. What's going on there in OZ?

MS is an American corporation that is regulated by a body that upholds the strictest of rules and ethical codes.

We know how ethical your Corporations are.
I guess you've already forgotten the GFC?

For example, Standard & Poor's, Moody's and the Fitch Group.
Q&A: The federal charges against Standard & Poor's - Yahoo! News

A couple of IT related examples:

• MS "strong-arming" other companies in the 90s
• Google "accidentally" recording the locations of unsecured WAPs
• Apple tracking iPhone users

The CEIP is not an evil or spying program. It simply collects user data and sent to MS for statistical purposes.

That has been publicly verified by whom?

This is the same company that claimed:

• The Windows Explorer Navigation scroll bug was a feature.
• WGA would only affect people using XP illegally

Corporate statements are mostly self-serving PR (just like Government ones).

 

[Wrend]

...

So, you say you personally don't like to use the desktop for such things, and yet you claim that this is how it should be?

I don't get you.

Basically, yes.

I would like the Metro style interface as a more integrated option that compliments how I want to use my computer instead of replacing and changing how I use it. That way I could optionally and more conveniently take advantage of the features that it has to offer.

I think (?) we can agree that it is basically a kind of desktop (in regards to screen icon/tile usage), so why not just incorporate it into the desktop since it could provide the functionality of both the traditional desktop icon area and its new features in one without also getting in the way of how PC desktop computers are more traditionally used? I think this would have been a more seamless integration of these two somewhat different GUI styles (regarding PCs and tablets/smartphones).

Hopefully this post provides some clarification to you about my opinions and preferences, even if perhaps you don't agree with them.

 

[Ray8]

That's another way of looking at it. Why couldn't the MPI have opened up as another window in the desktop, able to be re-sized and moved about from one screen to another (in multiple monitor situations)? It would then operate in exactly the same way in a reduced size, if you want, but not get in the way of the desktop when that was the predominant user space.

 

[Wrend]

Hey, maybe that could be an additional option, but I don't see why it couldn't just be customizable and part of the "user space," maybe optionally having multiple customizable Metro style desktops to use on different monitors, or mirrored on them. Maybe you could even optionally side scroll across the monitors to get to and select what you want to open and view on a specific monitor.

 

[Tepid]

Ok Ray, I have to say, you obviously don't work in the corporate world of consistent Desktops. They are very few and far between, Rare to say the least. They need to be locked down to really keep that consistency and that is rare as well.

So you don't use a standard image rolled out via the server?

Yes, but not completely standardized. We have a standard set of Software, but not all dept use the same software.
We don't lock down our systems as we are a pretty large company, and it would literally kill the ability to fix things in a timely manner.
Something we can not afford. And it's not the first time I have seen this either. Many companies are run this way.
The standardized desktop does exist, but not very often in a locked down way. In fact, i deal with some that do that, it unnecessarily slows down the ability for us and the user to get fixed and be able to work in a timely fashion.
Locking down systems is not always the best way to do things. It can impair production in a big way.

Very often, even the techs are locked out of doing certain things which hinders the ability to get things fixed till red tape and BS are waded through.

Let's put it this way, there are times a 5 min fix can take hours or days to get resolved. What's the point in that? There isn't one.

 

[Ray8]

All the major organisations that I know of have an SOE that is delivered to all desktops and laptops as a unified system. Individuals that require specific software place a separate installation request. The user has limited privileges for modifications/installation of software, organisation dependent. Some organisations lock down the SOE so tightly such that the user can't even modify the desktop background.

Updates are delivered automatically to each individual device, usually after working hours. If someone has a problem with their system, the IT department addresses that individual device either directly or remotely. That's been the biggest selling point about the Microsoft Enterprise system and all the IT personnel that I've know prefer the controlled SOE than one where the user can do what they want. I can't see why anyone would want to do things any differently.

Cheers

Ray