Solved Defrag on SSD

Vadikan · Aug 4, 2013

Hi Jimbo,

We can't see what hardware is doing, but it's enough to know what it's doing. It doesn't look like you've provided any explanation, so let me fill in the blanks.

On SSDs, Windows uses LBAs, exactly the same way as with HDDs. So there are in fact classical sectors, if this is what you're referring to. The difference is that on SSDs LBAs are logically mapped to physical NAND cells. That's the hardware design.

The software design is to send TRIM commands when a file is deleted, so the SSD controller can take care of it during its maintenance procedures, and not when OS tells it to write in this LBA, like happens on HDDs. This would cause performance degradation, so it's a clever system!

The controller doesn't care about fragmented file system, all it cares is NAND fragmentation, and it takes care of it with Garbage Collection / NAND defrag.

Now, imagine, you're the controller who just perfectly defragged NAND, everything is neat and clean. Then, all of a sudden, the OS performs the file system defrag that results in moving fragments and writing them to disk. Too bad, you've got to defrag NAND again, because it's not perfect anymore.

SSD controllers are indeed intelligent and they won't get mad at you for making them clean their house twice

But I'd really prefer to stick the discussion to the software side of things, because this is what matters here.

Vadim

Brink · Aug 5, 2013

Vadikan said:
Shawn,

What you're saying is correct... in theory

1. I've researched this issue long enough to be certain that the bug exists and reproduces on all Windows 8 machines with default defrag and maintenance settings.

2. My blog readers provided me with enough data to support this point, and modern SSDs are affected as well. I've got a lot of logs posted by my readers from different machines. Feel free to dig thru them, looking for Windows 8 PCs and finding proof (SSD models are easy to figure out from the logs).

3. Please read my blog post carefully to see how the issue occurs (the commands you've posted are irrelevant to the issue). Then check the logged events on all machines available to you. The OS has to be installed for at least a month for the defrag to occur with reasonable probability and be reflected in the event log. But I assure you it will occur sooner or later

I can see if I can translate my CheckBootSpeed utility to English, so we can get more logs from EF readers. Or I can throw a quick PS script. But 8.1 Preview is too recent, so the logs are not likely to show the issue. But that doesn't mean the issue will not occur.

brummyfan,
The service start type is manual, so it starts only for defrag/optimization.

I see what you mean now. I added a warning at the top of the tutorial below to help spread the word.

http://www.eightforums.com/tutorials/8616-optimize-drives-schedule-change-windows-8-a.html

Vadikan · Aug 5, 2013

Hi Shawn,

Have you found the issue on your systems?

Thanks for adding the warning! Spreading the word is important, but not as important as fixing the bug... Unfortunately, the Top Community Issue program you may be aware of has been abandoned long time ago and recently discontinued on MS Connnect, so the bug report fell on death ears.

Vadim

Brink · Aug 5, 2013

I haven't seen it on my system, but I'll bump up the schedule and monitor it more.

Only the C: drive is a SSD.

Code:

The system booted in 54 seconds, including the user profile in 1 seconds
The average of the last three boots is 39 seconds

It took 28 seconds to fully load the Desktop,,
which could be affected by 9 programs in startup.

The 'SuperFetch' service startup type is Auto, and it is currently Running

The 'Task Scheduler' service startup type is Auto and it is currently Running
The 'Disk Defragmenter' service startup type is Manual

The scheduled disk optimization task is on
The last disk defragmentation was on 08/05/2013 00:42:16
The system drive C: has a size of 237.96 GB with 61.05% of free space

This PC is running Microsoft Windows 8.1 Enterprise Preview 6.3.9431 64-bit
Processor Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-3930K CPU @ 3.20GHz
Installed memory (RAM): 32717 MB
Windows installation date: 2013-07-30 (installed for 5 days)
The system is probably installed on SSD (random read speed is 380.66000 MB/s)


#########################################
Additional diagnostics data
#########################################

Disk and partition info (Windows 8 only)
\\?\Volume{8eaf3625-1bf4-4590-880d-25b6914bee7a}\
\\?\scsi#disk&ven_ocz-vect&prod_ocz-vector#4&4905d17&0&000000#{53f56307-b6bf-11d0-94f2-00a0c91efb8b}

\\?\scsi#disk&ven_ocz-vect&prod_ocz-vector#4&4905d17&0&000000#{53f56307-b6bf-11d0-94f2-00a0c91efb8b}

\\?\scsi#disk&ven_ocz-vect&prod_ocz-vector#4&4905d17&0&000000#{53f56307-b6bf-11d0-94f2-00a0c91efb8b}

C:\
\\?\Volume{77c9053c-9bd5-45b1-a061-9d3b79bd27f0}\
\\?\scsi#disk&ven_ocz-vect&prod_ocz-vector#4&4905d17&0&000000#{53f56307-b6bf-11d0-94f2-00a0c91efb8b}

\\?\scsi#disk&ven_samsung&prod_hd154ui#4&4905d17&0&010000#{53f56307-b6bf-11d0-94f2-00a0c91efb8b}

D:\
\\?\Volume{8dd61c54-a5f0-406f-a2ca-b65175e2f337}\
\\?\scsi#disk&ven_samsung&prod_hd154ui#4&4905d17&0&010000#{53f56307-b6bf-11d0-94f2-00a0c91efb8b}

\\?\scsi#disk&ven_samsung&prod_hd154ui#4&4905d17&0&040000#{53f56307-b6bf-11d0-94f2-00a0c91efb8b}

E:\
\\?\Volume{3631da9d-ef79-478b-b5a7-b5ab75b614d0}\
\\?\scsi#disk&ven_samsung&prod_hd154ui#4&4905d17&0&040000#{53f56307-b6bf-11d0-94f2-00a0c91efb8b}



#########################################
Recent disk assesment


8.15

kind            units ioSize score #text    
----            ----- ------ ----- -----    
Sequential Read MB/s  65536  8.1   506.64500
Random Read     MB/s  16384  8.2   380.66000


#########################################
Prefetch, SuperFetch è Readyboot


EnablePrefetcher: 3
EnableSuperFetch: 3


Latest ReadyBoot actions:
Latest Prefetcher actions:

LastWriteTime                            Extension                              
-------------                            ---------                              
8/5/2013 1:24:46 AM                      .pf                                    
8/5/2013 1:24:39 AM                      .pf                                    
8/5/2013 1:24:34 AM                      .pf                                    


#########################################
Defrag scheduled task parameters
\\?\Volume{8dd61c54-a5f0-406f-a2ca-b65175e2f337}\ \\?\Volume{3631da9d-ef79-478b-b5a7-b5ab75b614d0}\ \\?\Volume{8eaf3625-1bf4-4590-880d-25b6914bee7a}\ -h -o -$


#########################################
Event log


TimeGenerated : 8/5/2013 12:42:16 AM
Message       : The storage optimizer successfully completed defragmentation on 
                Data (E:)

TimeGenerated : 8/5/2013 12:42:14 AM
Message       : The storage optimizer successfully completed defragmentation on 
                Backups (D:)

TimeGenerated : 8/5/2013 12:38:10 AM
Message       : The storage optimizer successfully completed defragmentation on 
                Data (E:)

TimeGenerated : 8/5/2013 12:36:40 AM
Message       : The storage optimizer successfully completed defragmentation on 
                Backups (D:)

TimeGenerated : 8/5/2013 12:14:48 AM
Message       : The storage optimizer successfully completed analysis on 
                Backups (D:)

TimeGenerated : 8/4/2013 6:14:10 AM
Message       : The storage optimizer successfully completed retrim on (C:)

TimeGenerated : 8/4/2013 6:12:05 AM
Message       : The storage optimizer successfully completed retrim on (C:)

TimeGenerated : 8/3/2013 10:54:04 AM
Message       : The storage optimizer successfully completed retrim on (C:)

TimeGenerated : 8/3/2013 10:53:55 AM
Message       : The storage optimizer successfully completed retrim on Recovery



Report creation date: 8/5/2013 1:24 AM

Hopachi · Aug 5, 2013

Vadikan said:
Windows 8 erroneously defrags SSDs, indeed. Doesn't look like it's been fixed in Windows 8.1.

My blog's got only one article in English, but it's about this issue
Why Windows 8 defragments your SSD and how you can avoid this

Disabling automatic optimization:
You may need to uncheck the Recovery partition as well if it's part of the SSD (C: drive) installation of Windows.

For example, I got one SSD here, the recovery partition is 300MB and makes part of the installed Win8 system on C: drive.

Vadikan · Aug 5, 2013

Shawn,
Thanks for adding the log. Vector is pretty fast, huh?

A few observations from your log:
1. The OS has been installed for just 5 days, so it's too early for the maintenance defrag to kick in.

2. Your ScheduledDefrag parameters are different from the default (-c -h -o -$). If you want to reproduce the bug, it's better to check all volumes in dfrgui.

3. [irrelevant to the defrag issue] Strangely, EnableSuperFetch is equal to 3 and ReadyBoot is working (*.pf files). This may change after you run system assessment (WEI). Have you done that? Unlike in Windows 7, it's been removed from the Windows 8 setup process.

4. [irrelevant as well] 39 seconds to boot on average is pretty low for such a powerful system, unless driver/update installations were involved in reboots.

Hopachi,
It's a good point, and I had the same comment from my blog reader. Yet I deliberately have not included Recovery / System Reserved partitions in my instructions

There's no activity on them, so there's no reason for them to become fragmented. Also, the partitions are small, so any negative impact from defrag is not worth it.

The bottom line is I didn't want to complicate the instructions, leaving it up to advanced users to figure out

But yes, I've seen System Reserved partitions defragged and more than once (e.g. here it happens every month). I have no idea why

Vadim

jeffrys · Aug 5, 2013

hi guys,

first of all i will write this down Shawn, or better use it on my other computers weekly, those supporting TRIM.

Myself i use Intel Rapid Storage Technology on my Raid0, but i think everyone can use this via download (Intel) or like me having this option thanks to my Asus O8Z77-V, where this software is included.

Jeff

jeffrys · Aug 5, 2013

hi again,

just shaw that the last defrag on my external HDD ran on august 2d, for the C and S 16 days ago, so maybe not defragged, but my ENYO (external SSD via USB from OCZ) gives the same result as for the external HDD.

So in my opinion Windows does not recognize an external SSD as en SSD and defrags it. Nice.....

Jeff

Vadikan · Aug 5, 2013

Hi Jeff,

There are lots of maybes in your post

Just use http://www.eightforums.com/free-developer-programs-projects/29236-checkbootspeed-2-0-en-beta.html and post the results so we can evaluate them.

Vadim

jeffrys · Aug 5, 2013

ok Vadikan,

just ran the program which proofs that the ENYO is threated as a HDD.

But not the C: drive.

Unless i read wrong.

thanks

Jeff View attachment notepad-defrag.txt

Vadikan · Aug 5, 2013

Hi Jeff,

Yep, ENYO has been defraggged. What I also see is that your ScheduledDefrag parameters are different from defaults (although RAID may be the factor here).

Code:

Z:\
\\?\Volume{0b5670c0-3356-11e2-be66-c86000ddb915}\
\\?\usbstor#disk&ven_samsung&prod_hd103si&rev_#190603306fff&0#{53f56307-b6bf-11d0-94f2-00a0c91efb8b}

Defrag scheduled task parameters
\\?\Volume{0b5670c0-3356-11e2-be66-c86000ddb915}\ -h -o -$

Presumably, it should defrag only the HDD, but I'd like to clarify a couple of things first:
1. Have you changed these parameters? If yes, did you do it in Disk Optimizer (dfrgui) or in task scheduler?

2. Please post the screenshots of dfrgui with the ENYO attached:
a) The main screen
b) The Change settings > Choose screen

Vadim

jeffrys · Aug 5, 2013

hi Vadikan,

i did not touch DEFRAG or DEFRAG SCHEDULER since i presumed that defrag would not happen. Before running the check i disabled the Disk Optimizer.

So no, i did not change anyting else

This was taken prior to the turning off.

Here after with the choose drives, which i turned off today, a few hours ago.

if this is what you meant

Jeff

Jeff

Vadikan · Aug 5, 2013

Hi Jeff,

I see. Your ENYO is treated like a hard drive, so all you need to do is to exclude it from the scheduled maintenance along with other SSDs, and create a separate scheduled task for TRIM.

The instructions in my blog post still stand. Of course, you have to activate "Run on schedule" first.

Vadim

jeffrys · Aug 5, 2013

Yes, Vadikan,

but it is only the Z drive, hardly used, so i prefer to do this manual.

In fact having SSD's not connected to the motherboard via SATA ( so USB) and your drive gets defragged.

Nice bug in Windows8.

Something is right until proven otherwise........

Thanks for your effort

Jeff

Brink · Aug 5, 2013

Vadikan said:
Shawn,
Thanks for adding the log. Vector is pretty fast, huh?

A few observations from your log:
1. The OS has been installed for just 5 days, so it's too early for the maintenance defrag to kick in.

2. Your ScheduledDefrag parameters are different from the default (-c -h -o -$). If you want to reproduce the bug, it's better to check all volumes in dfrgui.

3. [irrelevant to the defrag issue] Strangely, EnableSuperFetch is equal to 3 and ReadyBoot is working (*.pf files). This may change after you run system assessment (WEI). Have you done that? Unlike in Windows 7, it's been removed from the Windows 8 setup process.

4. [irrelevant as well] 39 seconds to boot on average is pretty low for such a powerful system, unless driver/update installations were involved in reboots.

Hopachi,
It's a good point, and I had the same comment from my blog reader. Yet I deliberately have not included Recovery / System Reserved partitions in my instructions There's no activity on them, so there's no reason for them to become fragmented. Also, the partitions are small, so any negative impact from defrag is not worth it.

The bottom line is I didn't want to complicate the instructions, leaving it up to advanced users to figure out But yes, I've seen System Reserved partitions defragged and more than once (e.g. here it happens every month). I have no idea why

Vadim

Yeah, this was shortly after setting up Windows 8.1 Enterprise Preview on my system, so there was a lot of updates and drivers the first few days.

I'll post back with a new log after a week to see how it goes.

XweAponX · Aug 6, 2013

Vadikan said:
Windows 8 erroneously defrags SSDs, indeed. Doesn't look like it's been fixed in Windows 8.1.

My blog's got only one article in English, but it's about this issue
Why Windows 8 defragments your SSD and how you can avoid this

REALLY? I'll have to install Perfect Disk on those system I set up that have SSD's - I didn't know this, thanx for that info!

Vadikan · Aug 7, 2013

Jeff,

As an afterthought, there's nothing to do with your ENYO except excluding it from maintenance defrag (this includes disabling scheduled defrag, if you chose so). Since Windows doesn't recognize it as SSD, you can't do anything manually, i.e. you can't send TRIM.

XweAponX,

Really

You can check and see for yourself, e.g. post CheckBootSpeed logs. As for the third party defrags, I don't really see a need for them. Certainly, if they install properly, the built-in scheduled defrag gets disabled and this would take care of the problem. But it's a pretty heavyweight approach to dealing with the issue.

Vadim

jeffrys · Aug 7, 2013

hi Vadikan,

the Enyo does not support Trim, nor is my Revodrive X2.

OCZ promised a fix for the Revo, but this never happened. The main reason (i think), they like to change a lot their offer of SSD's.

Also since they bought Indilinx, they are no longer interested in SSD's with another controller. This aside of course from the topic.

That the Enyo gets defragged, i do not care much, but it is the thought. If MS says it will not defrag SSD's, then please do not do that then.

A few years back i defragged my Foremay Cheetah SSD's enough times to see that besides the wearing out (not good of course), SDDS's do not get any faster by doing so.

Jeff

Vadikan · Aug 7, 2013

Hi Jeff,

Then you don't have to worry about TRIM, indeed

As a side note, lack of TRIM support on the drive level doesn't mean Windows detects it as a hard drive, which is your case. Probably, the drive doesn't report itself as non-rotating medium.

Vadim

jeffrys · Aug 7, 2013

True Vadikan, my SSD's without TRIM are all dedected by MS as SSD's, only the USB connections not.

thanks

Jeff

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