8.1 Evaluation from Windows Secrets Newsletter

https://windowssecrets.com/top-story/touring-through-the-final-windows-8-1/

 

[jimbo45]

Hi there
I'd imagine that any corporate users would enable W8.1 boot straight to desktop so it looks more like traditional windows. They'd probably have the typical applications pinned to desktop and taskbar so you'd never have to see the metro screen -- If people at work for example couldn't have several EXCEL spread sheets open at once or other concurrent windows open at the same time and have to work entirely in full screen I'm sure there would be a "Shop Stewards" meeting in about 2 seconds flat.

I'm not sure in any case whether the corporate take up of W8/W8.1 will be that large anyway -- what appears to be happening as far as Windows 8/8.1 is concerned is that they are looking at ways to support this on BYOD computers. You would then log on to corporate VPN's / networks either directly or via some sort of Virtual machine software such as VMware player.

Cheers
jimbo

 

[davehc]

There is nothing logical about the new windows. I am still speaking about a specific radical change that was forced upon the install base within the common GUI, otherwise known as the start screen. It sucks on a desktop. Sometimes I just want to look at a short list of apps and choose or find a function in the same place it has been all along up to now. I would have met at least one single person within the IT field that I work in who thought as much. This has yet to happen for me, and it has been over a year. The only people I know of who actually like it, exist in this forum. I am 80% sure at least some of them work for Microsoft.

"There is nothing logical about the new windows. I am still speaking about a specific radical change that was forced upon the install base within the common GUI"

Do you really think, as a self professed expert, that it was forced on you_ The legacy desktop was there staring at you, much like previous "built in" programs, it was a free offer, you were not compelled, in any way, to use it.

"otherwise known as the start screen. It sucks on a desktop. Sometimes I just want to look at a short list of apps and choose or find a function in the same place it has been all along up to now."

When I first gor my hands on it, I immediately sawt as a graphical start menu. I have customised it, and pushed the lesser used items down into the "all programs" screen. In my method of usage, I find this quicker and neater than ploughing through the old style menus. If anyone tells me they used , on a very regular basis, ALL those available shortcuts in the legacy Start menu, I would challenge them. "Look at a short list". I have narrowed my regulars down to 40 regular programs. These even include "maintenance" programs. One click and I can see all of them.

"would have met at least one single person within the IT field that I work in who thought as much."

I could introduce you to many.

" The only people I know of who actually like it, exist in this forum.I am 80% sure at least some of them work for Microsoft"

Well, not much comment. I am sure you realise the silliness of that comment. And, obviously, with the interchange of info here, which is a dedicated Windows 8 forum, it should be obvious to you that Windows 8 is favoured by the majority. But have a look again, You will find many posts with very adverse criticisms of the OS

 

[jimbo45]

Hi there
I've long since thought that the "Custom toolbar" approach was the way to go I took that approach on W7 too-- my biggest gripe is that once for any reason you get into the Metro type of stuff then navigation can sometimes get a bit convoluted -- I think Ms has got it a bit hosed up mixing Metro and desktop so easily -- there ought from Desktop to be a specific button or something to say Enter Metro mode when you want to operate the computer that way rather than just "casual" navigation.

Boot to desktop is what should have been there from the start - I think also SEARCH (application) should start also from the desktop rather than from one of the start screens and the SEARCH function should only include the Internet when you are in Metro mode rather than by default as now.

A lot of the languages are missing too in W8.1 -- the W8 language packs DO NOT WORK in W8.1 and I need to test.
Office Languages are fine - just the display (windows) aren't available yet for my specific language.

Cheers
jimbo

 

[djsigma]

If for instance my work PC was upgraded to Windows 8, and the corporate IT folks gave us no way to open PDFs other than Metro's Reader app, my job would suddenly get much harder. And I would have no option to dump it, unless I quit my job which would be a bit too extreme!

Just because Windows 8 has a PDF reader built in that you don't like (I don't like it either), doesn't mean you would be forced to use it at work. It could also apply to any other version of the OS if the IT folks forced you to use some third party PDF reader that you thought was terrible.

 

[DavidY]

Just because Windows 8 has a PDF reader built in that you don't like (I don't like it either), doesn't mean you would be forced to use it at work. It could also apply to any other version of the OS if the IT folks forced you to use some third party PDF reader that you thought was terrible.

Yes but the point is the Reader app itself isn't actually that terrible, the problem is that you can't see it in a window below a spreadsheet or whatever, and that's a design fault in the Operating System, not a fault in the app.

And the same would apply if Office 2014 or whatever became Metro only, which would be harder to persuade the IT folk to change.

 

[djsigma]

Yes but the point is the Reader app itself isn't actually that terrible, the problem is that you can't see it in a window below a spreadsheet or whatever, and that's a design fault in the Operating System, not a fault in the app.

And the same would apply if Office 2014 or whatever became Metro only, which would be harder to persuade the IT folk to change.

You can open a PDF in Reader and have the app open next to Excel. Even if Office went Metro-only, you could still do that, so entering in data from a PDF to a spreadsheet could still be done.

I would agree that the Metro environment on a desktop is not ideal for enterprise in its current state, but then any head of IT that chose to use Windows 8.1 should take this into consideration. Personally, I would give people desktop versions of applications to use, because there are good reasons for doing so, the cost and time taken to retrain people being a big one. If Office 2014 was Metro-only, sure, that would be an issue, but it's not going to be.

Maybe the long term plan is for the desktop to go away, or for it to be something that's optional when you install Windows 11 (or whatever), but I think a lot of people who have grim visions of the future for Windows are imagining that if MS do get rid of the desktop or make it an optional component, that Metro wouldn't have evolved from what it's like today - so it would be like having Windows 8.1 now, but with the desktop completely gone. That would suck, but that's not how it's going to be.

As it is today, you are not forced to use Metro apps. In Windows 8.1 you can boot to the desktop, you can disable the upper hot corners. You can set the Start button so it will go straight to the All Apps screen, which is just an always-expanded Start menu, therefore you never actually see the tiled Metro screen at all, but if that's not what you want, you can install Classic Shell or Start8 or whatever is your favourite choice of Start menu replacement and the experience is almost identical to using Windows 7. At the office, if you were forced to use Metro apps and that made it more difficult to do your work and it cost the company a bunch of money in retraining, that is the IT department's mistake, not Microsoft's.

 

[DavidY]

You can open a PDF in Reader and have the app open next to Excel. Even if Office went Metro-only, you could still do that, so entering in data from a PDF to a spreadsheet could still be done.

No I need it to be arranged horizontally, with one above the other. Side by side is no good because the data I'm usually dealing with very wide and not very deep.

(And my current work laptop, which is too recent for them to fork out to get me a new one, has the old-school 1280x800 screen resolution, it doesn't have enough pixels for Windows 8 to Snap side-by-side anyway; I know 8.1 is better but still not sure if it supports Snap on that resolution?)

 

[djsigma]

You can open a PDF in Reader and have the app open next to Excel. Even if Office went Metro-only, you could still do that, so entering in data from a PDF to a spreadsheet could still be done.

No I need it to be arranged horizontally, with one above the other. Side by side is no good because the data I'm usually dealing with very wide and not very deep.

(And my current work laptop, which is too recent for them to fork out to get me a new one, has the old-school 1280x800 screen resolution, it doesn't have enough pixels for Windows 8 to Snap side-by-side anyway; I know 8.1 is better but still not sure if it supports Snap on that resolution?)

In that case, no IT guy with any sense would force you to use Metro versions of apps because it makes your job more difficult. Come back to me when they do.

If I was in charge of IT at your place, I would think....

1. His laptop hasn't got the resolution to support snapping apps.
2. He needs to have apps tiled horizontally, due to the way he needs to view information.
3. He perhaps would need some training on how to use the Metro environment (not saying you do, but I would consider that).
4. Is the Metro version of any app better than a desktop version, given the above considerations?

So if, after considering that, I said "here, you're being forced to use Reader to read PDFs now", then I would have made a very poor decision indeed, but that would be 100% my fault, not MS's, given that there are alternatives.

 

[HippsieGypsie]

Yes but the point is the Reader app itself isn't actually that terrible, the problem is that you can't see it in a window below a spreadsheet or whatever, and that's a design fault in the Operating System, not a fault in the app.

One can download/install Acrobat Reader or others to use on desktop. Word 2013 has the ability to open, edit, and save PDF files, so no need for a reader if one has it. Video: What

Admittedly, they have a ways to go yet on Snap, but lets give it time. 8.1 has more options than 8. I'm not that technical to know why snap is vertical with no option of horizontal which makes more sense to me, since most monitors are wider than taller. Here's a capture of Modern/Metro Reader on right and Desktop Excel sheet on left:

View attachment 28152

What's weird is if one goes the other way with Reader.

View attachment 28153

And the same would apply if Office 2014 or whatever became Metro only, which would be harder to persuade the IT folk to change.

Lets not get into "What ifs" but rather with "What is".

 

[Wynona]

"That's a large proportion of the Windows 8 hate posse in a nutshell, haha."

Yes but many of us don't get to choose what OS and software we use on computers at work, and it's for tasks at work that Metro is truly hopeless.

If for instance my work PC was upgraded to Windows 8, and the corporate IT folks gave us no way to open PDFs other than Metro's Reader app, my job would suddenly get much harder. And I would have no option to dump it, unless I quit my job which would be a bit too extreme!

Not only the workforce David, but those who just aren't technically savvy. How many senior citizens will receive a new PC or laptop for Christmas this year, turn the dang thing on and then sit there wondering what to do next? The "kid" was nice enough to buy them something they don't understand (and chances are the "kid" is no more savvy about Windows 8 than they are) and can't really use. Most of them will eventually figure things out, but they most likely won't be happy.

Then there are the folks who, for whatever reason, buy themselves a new computer with Windows 8 on it. As with the seniors and their "kids" above, they're stuck with what they bought because there's nothing else available to them.

Most of the above folks are not tech savvy enough to install Windows 7 in place of Windows 8, not to mention setting up a dual boot system.

So, yes, I can see any number of people who have finally learned to "get around" in Windows 8, but who literally hate it yet can't do anything but keep the blasted computer.

 

[Dave76]

Your attention is taken away momentarily anyway, unless you can look through your Start menu and debug sub-routines at the same time.

And as for moot point, the whole whining about no Start menu is moot precisely because there are third party tools that do the job. Windows users have always had to use third party tools to do things that Windows could not do, or that do things better than the built-in options. I've never heard so much ridiculous whining about such a non-issue - and from people who are still using the OS anyway it seems! Folks who hate it enough to whine about something A YEAR after it was released, lol, but haven't quite got the courage of their convictions to dump it and use something else. If I was that mad about something, the first thing I'd do is dump it.

A: "I hate the iPhone, it sucks! Apple need to fix it cos they don't understand their customers at all!"
B: "Oh yeah? What phone do you use then if you hate the iPhone so much?"
A: "iPhone."
B: "................"

^^That's a large proportion of the Windows 8 hate posse in a nutshell, haha.

Well stated.

I don't know anyone, or heard of anyone, that can focus on an open window while opening the Win7 style menu to open another program. If you have several program windows open, you can't focus on more than one at a time, you can glance back and forth.
When you open the Win7 start menu you focus on it for a few seconds, open a program, then focus on it or another program/window.
When you open Win8 start screen you focus on it for a few seconds, open a program, then focus on it or another program/window.

If you prefer the Win7 style menu, that's your prerogative, but I can't agree that Win8 start screen takes anyones focus away from their work more than a Win7 style start menu.
I use the desktop +98%, have always pinned most used programs to the task bar, use a program dock to have quick access to other programs I regularly use (and still do this now), I consider the Win8 start screen another dock.

A large percentage of advanced users have always customized their desktop, if they can't get it the way they want with Windows options then they use third party apps.
When MS adds too many programs/options they get sued for being a monopoly/unfair trade practices.
It is not possible to have every conceivable option available for every single user. If/when they try, they get complaints about a 'bloated OS', they will never be able to please everyone.

Try the new OS, customize it the way you want, use third party programs if you need/want. If you still don't like it, use a previous version or other OS. Choice is a good thing.
When at work use what is provided, use other programs if needed/desired, if they are not allowed then lobby to get them approved.

 

[Mystere]

No I need it to be arranged horizontally, with one above the other. Side by side is no good because the data I'm usually dealing with very wide and not very deep.

(And my current work laptop, which is too recent for them to fork out to get me a new one, has the old-school 1280x800 screen resolution, it doesn't have enough pixels for Windows 8 to Snap side-by-side anyway; I know 8.1 is better but still not sure if it supports Snap on that resolution?)

So you are using hardware that is unsupported and inadequate for your job, and you blame the OS. Nice.

In any event, Adobe Reader is still free and can be installed just fine.

 

[Mystere]

My point exactly. I couldn't care less about a click count. If I am 10 levels deep in a program debugging subroutines I don't want or need my attention or thought process broken momentarily. It takes much longer than a moment to get your head back into it once diverted.

I've heard this argument before, and it's frankly it makes no logical sense. It's one of those made up arguments people love to "stick to their guns" about, even though it makes no logical sense.

If you're going into the start menu to launch a new program, your attention is *ALREADY* broken from what you're doing. You can't keep your attention on what you're doing and then go looking for an app 10 levels deep in your start menu at the same time. It's simply not humanly possible. Your attention is diverted regardless.

The start screen opens up and returns you exactly where you were, without changing any of your selections or focused items...

 

[DavidY]

So you are using hardware that is unsupported and inadequate for your job, and you blame the OS. Nice.

The hardware is totally adequate to do my job in any version of Windows from XP to 7, so how is that not the fault of the OS?

In any event, Adobe Reader is still free and can be installed just fine.

Well assuming the corporate decision makers get it right (by no means guaranteed), then yes.

But it's only because Adobe currently haven't gone "Metro-only", that their product is better for business use.

Which is a very good reason for software developers to keep developing desktop versions of products, especially software or utilities that people use for real work/ "content creation" etc. And if developers haven't the resources to support two streams of development at once (look at how long it's taken Mozilla to get anywhere near a Metro version of Firefox), developers will need to keep their focus on keeping their desktop versions up to date, because as it stands Metro is so inadequate for doing work, so people will keep looking for desktop apps.

But this is surely bad for Microsoft who must desperately want developers to add decent Metro apps to the Windows Store... but they've shot themselves in the foot with the current Metro.

8.1 sounds like it's a step in the right direction, but there's still a fair way to go.

 

[HippsieGypsie]

My point exactly. I couldn't care less about a click count. If I am 10 levels deep in a program debugging subroutines I don't want or need my attention or thought process broken momentarily. It takes much longer than a moment to get your head back into it once diverted.

I've heard this argument before, and it's frankly it makes no logical sense. It's one of those made up arguments people love to "stick to their guns" about, even though it makes no logical sense.

If you're going into the start menu to launch a new program, your attention is *ALREADY* broken from what you're doing. You can't keep your attention on what you're doing and then go looking for an app 10 levels deep in your start menu at the same time. It's simply not humanly possible. Your attention is diverted regardless.

The start screen opens up and returns you exactly where you were, without changing any of your selections or focused items...

I beg to differ with you, MysterE=mc²! It is now possible with a recently developed technique for a neurosurgeon to surgically separate the hemispheres of one's brain to be able to think in stereo and to see stereoscopically. Therefore, it is possible that a user can work on two subjects simultaneously.

Here is living proof....

Lizard Eye Trick - YouTube

And so can this one.....

Chameleon Eyes - YouTube

Of course I don't have videos of them working at a workstation, but you get the gist I'm quite sure.

Here's an exercise users can do to see how far they can diverge their eyes for stereoscopic viewing without the surgery. (WARNING: Very Cheezy)

How Far Can You Diverge Your Eyes? - YouTube

I'm awaiting your comeback on this one, MysterE=mc²!

 

[Mystere]

Lol... I will only remind you that looking at more than one thing is not the same thing as concentrating on more than one thing.

 

[musiclover7]

My point exactly. I couldn't care less about a click count. If I am 10 levels deep in a program debugging subroutines I don't want or need my attention or thought process broken momentarily. It takes much longer than a moment to get your head back into it once diverted.

I've heard this argument before, and it's frankly it makes no logical sense. It's one of those made up arguments people love to "stick to their guns" about, even though it makes no logical sense.

If you're going into the start menu to launch a new program, your attention is *ALREADY* broken from what you're doing. You can't keep your attention on what you're doing and then go looking for an app 10 levels deep in your start menu at the same time. It's simply not humanly possible. Your attention is diverted regardless.

The start screen opens up and returns you exactly where you were, without changing any of your selections or focused items...

This is not at all true. I liken it to the difference between walking all the way into a room to get something, vs staying in the room you are in and just glancing into the other room to accomplish what you want. This is really a taste thing, but for those of us who work on our machines, sometimes with 50 plus windows and putty sessions open, we are not wrong for finding this to be un-intuitive. And if it is perfectly intuitive for you, that is just great, and by all means keep enjoying that greatness.. We are not wrong for feeling the way we feel about it. It is a subjective thing. Which is why giving us the option to choose, would have been such a dandy idea.

 

[HippsieGypsie]

Lol... I will only remind you that looking at more than one thing is not the same thing as concentrating on more than one thing.

Oh....Then that surgery would be a waste of money, wouldn't it?!! Well, back to the drawing board as they say!

 

[djsigma]

It is a subjective thing. Which is why giving us the option to choose, would have been such a dandy idea.

Why is it an issue for you though? That's the bit I don't get.

In Windows 7, I needed some way to mount ISOs. Windows couldn't do it natively, so I had to find a third party app to do it. I found a free piece of software called Virtual CloneDrive, installed it, it worked great - job done.

So your issue in Windows 8 is that the full screen equivalent of the Start menu takes your attention away from what you're doing. I'd say that you have 3 possible solutions: -

1. Pin shortcuts to the software you need to use when you're working to the taskbar.

2. Create a toolbar in the taskbar and place shortcuts to all your work software in that, then shove it up one end so it acts like a mini Start menu just for those programs.

3. Install Start8, Classic Shell, or one of the other Start menu replacements.

Does that not solve your problem in the same way that installing Virtual CloneDrive in Windows 7 solved mine? If not, why not?

I understand that some people are annoyed with Microsoft's design decision, but then if you can replace that functionality with something else that works just as well, what is the problem? The "real" problem, rather than a hypothetical one, I mean.

 

[Mystere]

This is not at all true. I liken it to the difference between walking all the way into a room to get something, vs staying in the room you are in and just glancing into the other room to accomplish what you want.

It's not though. There is no significant difference in effort between the two, if anything, the menu is more effort because menus are harder to maneuver and require you to pause, select, pause, select, etc.. You aren't physically getting up and walking into another room. We're not talking about merely glancing at something. We're talking about action, and concentration to accomplish a task.

I can just imagine how you would handle something like MacOS's Spaces, or Linux's Virtual Desktops. Oh my gosh, my screen changed.. what am I going to do?

How do you handle it when a full screen application opens? That must be so jarring for you? How do you drive a car when the terrain completely changes all the time? How do you watch TV when the scenes keep totally changing every few minutes?

Yes, I am being sarcastic... If you cannot handle such things, you probably shouldn't be using a computer. But we DO in fact know you can handle such things, because you do so every day with other, similar things, which you seem to have no problem with, even things that require concentration, like driving.

This is really a taste thing, but for those of us who work on our machines, sometimes with 50 plus windows and putty sessions open, we are not wrong for finding this to be un-intuitive. And if it is perfectly intuitive for you, that is just great, and by all means keep enjoying that greatness.. We are not wrong for feeling the way we feel about it. It is a subjective thing. Which is why giving us the option to choose, would have been such a dandy idea.

And yet you can have 50 windows open that switch between without even thinking. The start screen is *JUST ANOTHER WINDOW*. What's so special about it that makes you completely lose the ability to think when you use it?

The problem is that you are trying to use an invalid argument to support your personal preference. And invalid arguments will always have people pointing out how invalid they are. I get that you just don't like it. And there's nothing I can say that will change that. But if you keep arguing things that just don't make any sense, then you're going to keep getting argument.

The valid argument here is that you just don't like it. And maybe, yes, your concentration is even more interrupted because when you go to the start screen, all you can think about is how much you hate it... But I can make the same argument about the start menu in my case. I hate it, and when I have to use it on Windows 7, it's annoying and interrupts my concentration. I don't sit here and try to make up scientific excuses to explain my personal preference.