Windows 8 and 8.1 Forums


Final thoughts on Windows 8: A design disaster

  1. #91


    Posts : 738
    1st W10 Professional x64/W7 Ultimate x64 - 2nd Remote system: W10 Insider Builds/W7 Professional


    Usb at this time is the universal format for external devices of all types including charging up hand held devices like cell phones, smart phones, etc. At the present 7 still remains the champ of all versions to date since 8 is proving itself to be a totally different animal to work with.

    As you dig deeper into the new OS you start to encounter problems you wouldn't see on 7! Changing from Native IDE mode in the bios setup to AHCI is one good example of how easy it was to trash the RP while 7 booted right up, prompted to restart as it was done with the two OS drives but needed to install the two storage/backup HDs. 8 simply stalled seeing the system restart on it's own when trying to boot back into 8 later.

    Do not boot into 7 or other from the 8 boot options whether 8 picks the other up automatically on the fresh install or you decide to add a boot entry in for another version later with EasyBCD. For some reason the 7 drive will suddenly see the "ntoskmi.exe" error come up when 7 suddenly has freeze ups that lock the desktop forcing a hard boot! Leave the two versions totally isolated from each other is the rule of thought from the findings so far.

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  2. #92


    Perth West Australia
    Posts : 128
    1st PC: Win7 Ultimate 64bit Retail. 2nd PC: Vista Ulimtate 32bit OEM


    Quote Originally Posted by Night Hawk View Post
    Leave the two versions totally isolated from each other is the rule of thought from the findings so far.
    Without going into it at the depth you have, I found this from hands on trial and error right from the get go.

    Over the years I have worked with multiple OSs on separate hard drives; and on one HD with multiple primary partitions; and have done quite a bit of research with corrupted/conflicting boot files, from Win98 onwards. I even managed to find a way to load XP first onto a single HD and add Win98 second, using third party boot menu software ... my humble claim to fame, because a techo from M$ told me it coudln't be done. M$ Aussie gave me two free $50 sessions with one of their techos because of a dispute I had with them over multiple activations necessary to do boot experiments on deliberately corrupted NTLDR boot files for multiple OSs. The only way to repair them was using the repair function from the install disc and DOS commands.

    I did a little bit of work on BCD files in Vista for multiple OSs, using command line modifications, for adding/deleting/renaming/backing up; but stopped when I got hold of EasyBCD.

    With Win8 I initially loaded the Enterprise version, (which I got off a free DVD included in the magazine Australian PC), onto a 2nd partition on my hard drive, and had endless BSODs. When I deleted the Win8 partition, as opposed to just formatting it, to remove the Win8 boot files, it also removed Win7 boot files. More fun and games. And I couldn't restore the boot files using the Win7 repair option from the installation disc.

    From there I installed a 2nd HD, separate to main one with Win7 on it, and loaded Win8 on that. This created a linked boot menu at start up. More BSODs, and other various problems with Win7 OS. And when I unplugged the 2nd HD, the boot menu with Win8 on it still came up. I removed the Win8 entry using EasyBCD, but then Win7 would not boot; and couldn't repair the boot files with installation disc.

    It was only a ten minute job to reload the full OS from an Acronis back up image, but didn't really give me any inside knowledge on what was going on.

    Finally, the only way I found safe was to unplug the HD with Win7 on it, plug in a different HD by itself, and load Win8 on it. This way the two boot files were not linked, and either OS could be selected to boot from the BIOS at start up.

    In fact I don't even need to go into the BIOS to get the OS I want. I've got a HD caddy on top of my PC, which makes it easy. If I plug the Win8 HD into caddy, BIOS auto sets it to boot Win8. If I remove the Win8 HD from the caddy, the BIOS auto detects Win7 as the only active HD and loads it.
    Last edited by poppa bear; 21 Jun 2012 at 02:06.
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  3. #93


    Posts : 738
    1st W10 Professional x64/W7 Ultimate x64 - 2nd Remote system: W10 Insider Builds/W7 Professional


    Once you nuked the boot entry with the EasyBCD tool you also nuked the default OS as well! You needed to set 7 as the default OS before removing the entry for 8 since you would have had to use the 8 Automatic repair option renamed from Startup repair in order to boot into 8 when adding an entry for 8 into the 7 BCD. Not good! Been there, done that already!

    Once 8 was on after seeing the 7 host drive unplugged first since every install here is stand alone as far as working with Windows I first used EasyBCD to add in the 7 entry on 8. Later once 8 kept freezing up the Refresh PC option automaticlly added a new entry for 7 on it's own being the newer version as expected. I then reset 7 as default with EasyBCD until 7 started freezing up as well!

    A good run of Check Disk with the /r switch saw 7 running well until changing from Native ide to AHCI on another day when suddenly 8 would no longer make it to the Lock screen. 7 on the other hand completed the changeover without a hitch.

    Where you ran into the problem was not seeing the two isolated from the start simply custom installing 8 replacing the 7 BCD in the process. That wasn't the 7 BCD you were editing at all since the 8 installer had already replaced it for 8's!

    The advantage of EasyBCD with the two previous versions of Vista and 7 is that the boot loaders are identical while 8 is slightly different being the newer out of all three is the fact you can have two stand alone installs on separate drives and still edit the boot loaders to add the other version in all three. The same was seen between Vista and 7 were you also used the Startup repair for 7 when custom installing with the BCD on one drive only.
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  4. #94


    Perth West Australia
    Posts : 128
    1st PC: Win7 Ultimate 64bit Retail. 2nd PC: Vista Ulimtate 32bit OEM


    Quote Originally Posted by Night Hawk View Post
    The advantage of EasyBCD with the two previous versions of Vista and 7 is that the boot loaders are identical while 8 is slightly different.
    Your various points are taken. I had figured most of it out later on after reading a tutorial entitled "Dual boot - Delete an OS" by whs --> here. However I hadn't tried switching the BIOS to native IDE. Mine was always in AHCI.

    Putting everything else aside though, it's not a simple process as was between Vista and Win7.
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  5. #95


    Tropical Island Pair a Dice
    Posts : 3,030
    Windows 8.1 Pro x64/ Windows 7 Ult x64


    Haven't had any booting problems, have been booting Win7, the CP and then RP (after clean install) from the Win8 boot options.

    Though haven't switched to IDE.
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  6. #96


    Perth West Australia
    Posts : 128
    1st PC: Win7 Ultimate 64bit Retail. 2nd PC: Vista Ulimtate 32bit OEM


    Quote Originally Posted by Dave76 View Post
    Haven't had any booting problems, have been booting Win7, the CP and then RP (after clean install) from the Win8 boot options.

    Though haven't switched to IDE.
    I would love to buy Win8, but refuse to buy an OS for desktop work that forces me to use a Tablet GUI. And which lacks a legacy start menu. And where it's necessary to use hacks or work arounds to get what I already have in Win7.

    For this reason I have unistalled Win8 as there is no point wasting any more time working with the system.

    Consequently I will not be testing any boot problems associated with runninig multiple OSs with it, on one or more hard drives. And in particular the effect of BIOS settings for IDE or AHCI.

    I have Win7 BIOS set to AHCI as default, but it also boots fine with IDE; and in IDE mode auto installs drivers for SATA drives after boot up.
    Last edited by poppa bear; 21 Jun 2012 at 13:48.
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  7. #97


    Posts : 738
    1st W10 Professional x64/W7 Ultimate x64 - 2nd Remote system: W10 Insider Builds/W7 Professional


    I wasn't switching from AHCI to the Native ide mode but vice versa from Native to AHCI. W7 then did what it needed to set up the two OS drives as SCSI devices. That's essentially what the AHCI is.

    The RP install on the second drive simply went belly up in the process. oops! No great loss!

    I still have the RP on the latest version of VirtualBox anyways and now have a chance to run both 7 and 8 on another OS's version of VBox! I made a slight change of OS on the second OS drive since it had to be wiped anyways for another clean install of the OS(which one of course) that would go back on.

    As far as the CPs and RPs I think the main reason why MS didn't bother requiring everyone to sign up first is to give everybody a look at the new Tablet PC gui while the actual retail might possibly? still hold a few surprises if MS is playing it smart for desktop users. Remember they like to "secretive" about what their final plans are for any final release whether the next version of Windows or one of their office products.

    The latest reports point at a new hand held being made by someone else to compete with whatever other portables that come out. The DP, CP, and now RP simply toss the Metro at you and say: "What do you think of the new touchscreen Windows?!"

    The set up and compatibility issues, amd day to day operations can be compared to going from Legacy to XP or XP to Vista in similar fashion where several changes are to be expected. The way 8 deals with changes like the bios setting change simply shows this to be fact in one form there indicating 8 will require a workaround for that type of problem if not simply a full clean install.
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  8. #98


    Perth West Australia
    Posts : 128
    1st PC: Win7 Ultimate 64bit Retail. 2nd PC: Vista Ulimtate 32bit OEM


    Quote Originally Posted by Night Hawk View Post
    ...while the actual retail might possibly? still hold a few surprises if MS is playing it smart for desktop users. Remember they like to "secretive" about what their final plans are for any final release whether the next version of Windows or one of their office products.
    That's interesing! Guess we'll just have to wait and see, but here's hoping.

    Could be a very smart reverse psychology marketing ploy. Make all the desk-toppers hate the current format of Win8, so when final comes out with all the desired features, you'll get killed in the rush by all the desk-toppers lining up to buy it! Kills two birds with one stone! Not only promotes Tablet GUI but primes the desk-toppers for easy sales! Hmmmmmm? How far would they come back to satisfy?

    I always buy retail OS, (and with Aussie $ running slightly better than USA $ at moment), to give you some idea of expected outlay for Win8 here in West Australia, Win7 retail cost $429 in January 2011. And that was best price at the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Night Hawk View Post
    ... A good run of Check Disk with the /r switch
    What is the exact command line text you use to incorporate the /r repair switch when you run the CHKDSK command?

    I usually run system file check on re-boot, with 'Repair' option ticked, from C:/ drive > Properties > Tools. Or Run box command: sfc /scannow.
    Last edited by poppa bear; 22 Jun 2012 at 01:45.
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  9. #99


    Posts : 738
    1st W10 Professional x64/W7 Ultimate x64 - 2nd Remote system: W10 Insider Builds/W7 Professional


    Simple at the command prompt you simply type "chkdsk /r" and press enter to schedule a run of the Check Disk tool. The "?r" is the repair switch added at the end.

    The System File Checker won't help any for booting problems due to errors on the drive. That simply verifies system files and replaces any found pooched and may prompt for the Windows media if it needs to.

    As far as pricing it was $419.99 here for 7 Ultimate and a week wait since retail outlets like an office supply store only place the retailt sleeves without media on the store shelves to prevent theft. They then send out the full retail package with disks by mail.
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Final thoughts on Windows 8: A design disaster
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