Windows 8 and 8.1 Forums


Screenshot Claims To Show Coming Windows 8.1 Start Menu

  1. #31


    Hafnarfjörður IS
    Posts : 4,376
    Linux Centos 7, W8.1, W7, W2K3 Server W10


    Hi there

    @waltc -- If you've got a 27" (or bigger) monitor I'd imagine that you'd be sitting FAR ENOUGH away from it (at least arms length away ) that even if you wanted to use Touch it wouldn't be feasible. Imagine with 50 inch or even bigger monitors -- most large screen TV's sold these days can operate quite decently as a Computer monitor too and often are used for that purpose.

    However using Multi-monitors becomes slightly different - if so you are using a pen type device on a tablet like screen then using touch on one screen to project the image on to a larger screen becomes much more practicable. Photoshop for example -- but using Touch doesn't mean that you have to use horizontally scrolling tiles. Touch can be used IN CONJUNCTION with a mouse -- unfortunately the arguments proposed usually assume ONE OR THE OTHER. The most useable system actually allows both to be used concurrently -- filling in areas in Photoshop is much easier with a pen like touch device while manipulating large blocks of text for example is best done with a keyboard and mouse. No touch device even comes close for that purpose.

    Note though provided you as a user can find a decent method of launching your applications the whole start menu debate is a bit silly now --if you want one there's applications around, if you don't want one don't use one. I can't understand the whole hostility to using 3rd party apps --- people use Browsers, Back up programs and loads of others without even the tiniest squeal -- why not a start menu if they want one.

    My complaint is that an endless horizontal scrolling system is ridiculous when you have a lot of complicated large applications - it's ok for a FEW simple apps and that's more appropriate to a small Mobile phone screen - not an office Computer and certainly NOT a server.

    Cheers
    jimbo

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  2. #32


    Adelaide
    Posts : 1,338
    Windows 7 Ultimate SP1 (64 bit), Linux Mint 17.1 MATE (64 bit)


    Quote Originally Posted by Kari View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by lehnerus2000 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by HippsieGypsie View Post
    You mean Windows 7 advocates here on forums want, which are but a minority in proportion to the general public worldwide.
    Minority?
    You are using an interesting mathematics system.
    Apparently we read and understand Hippsie's post differently. Of course it can be English not being my native language but as far as I can understand what Hippsie wrote, he means that the amount of Windows 7 advocates here at the Eight Forums is just a fraction of the worldwide general public.
    My Bad.

    If "general public worldwide" means everyone, then that case it would also be true to say W8 advocates comprise an even smaller minority of the general public worldwide, than W7 or XP advocates.
    Last edited by lehnerus2000; 23 Jul 2014 at 09:26. Reason: Clarification
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  3. #33


    Hafnarfjörður IS
    Posts : 4,376
    Linux Centos 7, W8.1, W7, W2K3 Server W10


    Quote Originally Posted by lehnerus2000 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Kari View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by lehnerus2000 View Post
    Minority?
    You are using an interesting mathematics system.
    Apparently we read and understand Hippsie's post differently. Of course it can be English not being my native language but as far as I can understand what Hippsie wrote, he means that the amount of Windows 7 advocates here at the Eight Forums is just a fraction of the worldwide general public.
    My Bad.

    In that case, it would also be true to say W8 advocates comprise an even smaller minority of the general public worldwide, than W7 or XP advocates.
    Hi there

    Ms is still making INCREASING revenues from Windows -- it's not all bad news for them. Remember also this was in a period that included the unpopular Windows 8 -- Windows 8.1 has alleviated a bit of that stigma. Most of the drop in profits was due to the takeover of Nokia.

    Don't give up "on the Old Dog" just yet.

    Microsoft profit hurt by Nokia, but revenues jump

    cheers
    jimbo
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  4. #34


    Posts : 53
    Windows 7/8


    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo45 View Post
    Hi there

    Note though provided you as a user can find a decent method of launching your applications the whole start menu debate is a bit silly now --if you want one there's applications around, if you don't want one don't use one. I can't understand the whole hostility to using 3rd party apps --- people use Browsers, Back up programs and loads of others without even the tiniest squeal -- why not a start menu if they want one.

    Cheers
    jimbo
    Jimbo,

    Unless things have changed since I worked I Microsoft back in the early 90's, I think part of the complaint around 3rd party solutions is that they are third party. I remember working on the escalation team, among others, and the bottom line was to always get the client to remove their third party utilities first. To be honest, this often solved their issue 2/3rds of the time. Of course people were unhappy to hear that their Norton whatchamacallit they had purchased and love was going to have to be removed because they had already been told by Norton they didn't consider it their issue.

    The philosophy at the company with regards to the OS was KISS. That meant running the OS as is. I can't imagine they have changed that view. Now if you discount that aspect of things, I totally agree that the start menu can be resolved either free, or next to free with 3rd party solutions.

    As I keep soapboxing on though, I want to see Modern UI apps vetted in the store, and more functionality. The latter is said to be coming with regards to better development tools. The former, well until the marketing department is removed so they can spin the number of apps available we are probably a long way from a solution there.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  5. #35


    Adelaide
    Posts : 1,338
    Windows 7 Ultimate SP1 (64 bit), Linux Mint 17.1 MATE (64 bit)


    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo45 View Post
    Ms is still making INCREASING revenues from Windows -- it's not all bad news for them. Remember also this was in a period that included the unpopular Windows 8 -- Windows 8.1 has alleviated a bit of that stigma. Most of the drop in profits was due to the takeover of Nokia.

    Don't give up "on the Old Dog" just yet.

    Microsoft profit hurt by Nokia, but revenues jump
    It would be interesting to see a long term chart comparing the various MS divisions share of the total MS profit.

    I thought that the Windows division was actually one of the lower income generating divisions these days.
    I noticed that they were talking up the success of the Services division.

    The other day I read an article quoting those analysts that you "really like" and they are projecting that PC sales will pick up this year.

    Based on the Alternate Windows Versions meme, Windows 9 should be good.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  6. #36


    Quote Originally Posted by lehnerus2000 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by HippsieGypsie View Post
    You mean Windows 7 advocates here on forums want, which are but a minority in proportion to the general public worldwide.
    Minority?
    You are using an interesting mathematics system.

    W7 has ~4x as many Desktop users as W8.
    XP still has ~2x as many Desktop users as W8.

    W8 vs XP numbers look better for W8 on W3Counter (but W7 still has ~4x as many users).
    W3Counter: Global Web Stats


    According to Web metrics firm Net Applications, Vista dropped 0.2 percentage points during September to end the month at an 18.6% slice of the operating system pie. It was the first decline for Vista since a 0.3 percentage-point slip in January 2008.
    Computerworld - Gregg Keizer (October 2, 2009)
    Vista peaks, starts decline in share as Windows 7 surges - Computerworld


    After nearly 2 years, the W8 "collection" has only managed to gain ~2/3 of Vista's peak market share.

    OTOH, I'm sure that W8 is installed on more mobile devices than XP or Vista.
    Please don't take the sentence out of context. The whole paragraph subject was the usage, or rather non-usage of the Start Menu by the general public.

    What I wrote:

    You mean Windows 7 advocates here on forums want, which are but a minority in proportion to the general public worldwide. It looks as though less users were using the Start Menu only to plaster icons to the Desktop or Taskbar. How many Desktops such as waltc just posted above have we seen? Therefore MS took Start Screen from the phone and made it better via Live Tiles and better personalization in order to organize to one's benefit. We've also entered an era of mobility, which demands touch UI, but one can navigate just as well with keyboard and mouse. BTW, Apps Screen is much closer to the Start Menu in functional replication, not the Start Screen.
    According to MS data less and less were using it. The subject was not Windows 7's usage. I know 7 was a huge success and never have I mocked it. All I'm stating is that for me and others here on this forum (and elsewhere) are enjoying the experience and think it is a more efficient system to use, both in navigation and productivity via the Start Screen and Apps Screen. Also using the advanced context menu (power user task menu) in the lower-left hot corner of the screen, Charms, Store apps, services, synchronization, touch UI, and more. Perhaps some don't understand that any more than we understand how users stick to 7 or make 8.x to be as much like 7 via 3rd party programs.

    Generally I think news articles and posts here are based on opinions or preferences (including mine) rather than scientifically proven facts via a study. At this point we can't prove the new system better any more than others can prove the old better.
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  7. #37
    Last edited by HippsieGypsie; 23 Jul 2014 at 12:48.
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  8. #38


    Adelaide
    Posts : 1,338
    Windows 7 Ultimate SP1 (64 bit), Linux Mint 17.1 MATE (64 bit)


    Quote Originally Posted by HippsieGypsie View Post
    Please don't take the sentence out of context. The whole paragraph subject was the usage, or rather non-usage of the Start Menu by the general public.
    Fair enough.

    The "general public worldwide" confused me.
    I suspect that the majority of people worldwide don't have a PC, Smart Phone or Tablet.

    IMO, desktops "covered with icons" weren't consciously created by most users (based on watching my friends).
    They are caused by "crappy" program installers.

    Some companies insist on placing their icons/logos all over a user's machine (their program updates always restore them too).
    These companies rely on the fact that a lot of users assume that they are required and shouldn't be removed (like crapware bundled with installers).

    Most open source programs (that I use) have superior installers when compared to a lot of commercial software installers.

    Quote Originally Posted by HippsieGypsie View Post
    BTW, Apps Screen is much closer to the Start Menu in functional replication, not the Start Screen.
    I agree that the "All Apps screen" is more like the "Start Menu", than the "Metro screen" is.
    The "Metro screen" is more like the left half of the "Start Menu" (the pinned programs area).

    However, when I was playing with the W8.1 Enterprise Trial download I was not able to modify the "All Apps screen", unlike the "Metro screen" or the old "Start Menu", so I'm always amazed when people claim the new system is more customizable.

    This issue may have been related to Activation restrictions (I know that some features are unavailable on the Trial versions).

    Quote Originally Posted by HippsieGypsie View Post
    According to MS data less and less were using it.
    Data released by MS always seems to support MS' current current position.

    The term "Snake Oil Salesman" seems to have originated in the US.
    When some corporation is trying to scam (sorry ... market some product to) you they are always going to say that it is "the greatest thing ever made" and they often trot out "proof" that they are right.

    When MS was trying to convince people that W8 was the greatest OS ever made (only a few months after it was released) they claimed that they had sold 100 million licenses, implying that "everyone" was upgrading to W8.
    Usage statistics clearly indicated that there were far fewer than 100 million users accessing the Internet via W8.

    Quote Originally Posted by HippsieGypsie View Post
    Generally I think news articles and posts here are based on opinions or preferences (including mine) rather than scientifically proven facts via a study. At this point we can't prove the new system better any more than others can prove the old better.
    Agreed.

    This type of question can only be proven by independent testing.

    Thanks for those links.

    I thought that I had read somewhere that the Server division was raking in large amounts of money for MS.
    The first links seems to indicate that MS' income (revenue and gross margin) is indeed from corporate purchases/renewals.
    It also seems to be indicating that non-corporate income is dropping.

    The second link ("Chart of the Day") clearly indicates that Windows 7 caused a massive increase in the profit share generated by the Windows division.


    W8 "philosophical discussions" are probably moot, as we should start to see W9 previews soon (Ed Bott is predicting that W9 will be released around July 23, 2015).
    Several years ago, with Windows 7 just around the corner, I looked at the historical intervals between Windows releases and noted that "the most stable and successful releases of Windows arrived roughly 1000 days after their trouble-plagued predecessors." If Windows 9 follows that timetable in the wake of the trouble-plagued Windows 8 release, it will ship on or about July 23, 2015.

    Consider this my entry in the Windows 9 release date prediction poll. (You'll get the chance to add your prediction soon.
    ZDNet - Ed Bott
    Desktop PCs and the Windows desktop: Endangered species? | ZDNet
    Last edited by lehnerus2000; 23 Jul 2014 at 23:32.
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  9. #39


    Hafnarfjörður IS
    Posts : 4,376
    Linux Centos 7, W8.1, W7, W2K3 Server W10


    Hi there

    "Non corporate " income might be dropping but as a % compared to corporate income or in absolute terms -- without that data the statement is essentially meaningless --sorry !!

    In any case it's a perfectly OK strategy to rely more on the corporate market if the consumer market has matured - not only do they tend to buy in huge volumes you also get repeat licences, ongoing support contracts and all the other stuff that goes with having a lucrative contract to a large organisation -- IBM transformed itself from a Hardware company ("The Big Blue") into quite a successful service organisation and got rid of its PC division too to Lenovo.

    As far as Laptops are concerned, unless you are talking about emerging markets, nearly everybody who wants one (consumer / home users) HAS at least one already and with modern hardware don't need to buy another one for YEARS. Desktops are similar -- these are very much a niche market --home hobbyists, gamers, a few specialized areas like professional video work and some large engineering projects (CAD etc).

    That's why there's all this emphasis on Cloud based services and subscription rates -- the relative income (from consumers using subscription services -- NOT CORPORATE) is currently relatively small but it's "in perpetuity" and will be growing all the time. People get taken in by the LOW rates in the beginning and then when they are "captured" the prices rise inexorably.

    Also the trouble with subscription stuff is that there is a total disparity of rates across the world. While Australia and N.Z might complain of higher rates than the US the UK actually gets the highest rates of al once the VAT (20%) is added -- there's even a comment somewhere on an Ms site saying something like " We can offer it cheap to the USA -- We'll make it up on charging the UK a much higher rate -- those people never complain and always pay up" !!).

    Buying the software attracts no VAT if it's educational purposes and sourced outside the UK BTW. Doesn't apply though to Office 365 as this is supplied by Ms from within the EU (Ireland I think).

    ...................As usual, consumers in markets outside the US are paying a higher price for software. Microsoft revealed 2013 pricing in the US last September, setting Office 365 Home Premium costs at $99.99 per year. Given current exchange rates, the same product costs roughly US$50 more for European and UK customers than their US counterparts. The same price difference applies to Australian customers, where the service costs AU$119 (US$124 or £78)........................

    Note in the UK you also have to add a WALLET BUSTING 20% VAT on top of that too !!!!! Not sure what Aussie equivalent is here -- VAT / Sales tax ?? buit I'm sure they have something on top of the base price to pay too.

    I'm sure the next update of Windows is going to include more subscription type software -- or certainly Thresher (W9) will have it.

    Cheers
    jimbo
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  10. #40


    Adelaide
    Posts : 1,338
    Windows 7 Ultimate SP1 (64 bit), Linux Mint 17.1 MATE (64 bit)


    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo45 View Post
    "Non corporate " income might be dropping but as a % compared to corporate income or in absolute terms -- without that data the statement is essentially meaningless --sorry !!
    I assumed that people would check out the charts for themselves.
    I'm not an investor, so I might not have read the info correctly.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo45 View Post
    Note in the UK you also have to add a WALLET BUSTING 20% VAT on top of that too !!!!! Not sure what Aussie equivalent is here -- VAT / Sales tax ?? buit I'm sure they have something on top of the base price to pay too.
    We have a 10% Goods & Services Tax (GST).
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