Windows 8 and 8.1 Forums


Screenshot Claims To Show Coming Windows 8.1 Start Menu

  1. #21


    Quote Originally Posted by HippsieGypsie View Post

    You mean Windows 7 advocates here on forums want, which are but a minority in proportion to the general public worldwide. It looks as though less users were using the Start Menu only to plaster icons to the Desktop or Taskbar. How many Desktops such as waltc just posted above have we seen?
    Probably a million or more...;) It's because that style of Windows GUI design is extremely popular with the majority of people who still don't want/need touchscreens...;) I like my desktop as pictured because everything is convenient for me--I never have to scroll a screen up, down, or horizontally, and use multiple pages (like the start-screen demands), because I can access every single program and file on the computer from that one single, simple desktop "page." The background imagery can be soothing, and relaxing, as opposed to the garish & jarring primary-color screens of the standard start page--I'd rather go easy on my eyes, etc...But again, there is no "right" or "wrong" here...it's all a matter of personal preference. *Except* for the differences between a touchscreen gui and a mouse/keyboard gui. The Win8 Metro GUI is horribly inefficient for a mouse/keyboard-driven gui; much screen space is wasted because the tiles and the text for *everything* has to be far larger for use with a touchscreen than it does for use with mouse & keyboard (for obvious reasons.) IE, what works well with touch doesn't work well with mouse/keyboard, and vice-versa.

    I like the shortcut icons of certain programs I use very often to be immediately accessible from the desktop--so that's why they are "plastered" there--no menus, no page scrolling--every one of those programs is but a double-click away (with the mouse, remember.) Also, look at my taskbar. I place mine at the top of the screen as opposed to the bottom, but that's just what I got used to in the 80's during the eight years I spent with Amigas--old habits die hard, etc. But notice the programs I have pinned there on the taskbar--each one of those programs is executable with a *single* mouse click, and as I use those programs the most on a regular basis, I pin them there.

    With the Classic Shell start menu as pictured above, I can easily access the rest of my installed programs (the ones that I use less often than the ones I've placed as shortcuts on the desktop), I can search the computer for a file, etc., and, again, I can do all of that without having to leave the desktop and/or scroll to another page, etc.

    Therefore MS took Start Screen from the phone and made it better via Live Tiles and better personalization in order to organize to one's benefit. We've also entered an era of mobility, which demands touch UI, but one can navigate just as well with keyboard and mouse. BTW, Apps Screen is much closer to the Start Menu in functional replication, not the Start Screen.
    Tiles, and etc. I think are fine for touchscreen-based tablets and for touchscreen cell phones, but they don't work so well for non-touch OS customers. I know I prefer the desktop, non-touch gui, overwhelmingly, but that is because I am not a fan of touchscreens. I find my keyboard & mouse much more user-friendly and precise than a touchscreen.

    So...now you know why my Win8 desktop, and so many other Windows desktops, look like they do...;) The short of it is, if you don't use touch, then Metro does nothing except get in your way...

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  2. #22


    Posts : 149
    Windows 7 Home Premium on 2 Windows 8.1 on 1


    Quote Originally Posted by HippsieGypsie View Post
    You mean Windows 7 advocates here on forums want, which are but a minority in proportion to the general public worldwide. It looks as though less users were using the Start Menu only to plaster icons to the Desktop or Taskbar. How many Desktops such as waltc just posted above have we seen? Therefore MS took Start Screen from the phone and made it better via Live Tiles and better personalization in order to organize to one's benefit. We've also entered an era of mobility, which demands touch UI, but one can navigate just as well with keyboard and mouse. BTW, Apps Screen is much closer to the Start Menu in functional replication, not the Start Screen.
    Man you like to write.

    So I guess all the articles etc. bemoaning the lack of a true Start Button in 8 and 8.1 are just one man's opinion (times thousands).

    I could go on but why. If you like the way 8 and 8.1 are (lacking a true Start Button) don't move to 9 or don't install Update 2 if it includes it (which I doubt it will).
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  3. #23


    Ok, Walt. Fair enough. All a matter of personal choice. This topic has been debated ad nausea.

    The short of it is, if you don't use touch, then Metro does nothing except get in your way...
    On the contrary. Personally it's a great aid to me and never in the way.

    It may be more than 1 million, but what's selling at the moment? I know that W8 numbers aren't the best, but still selling none the less, especially on mobile units. Drastic change is always slow in any product until proven better.

    Keep in mind that there is no faster navigation than with the finger. I'm quite sure everyone would agree with that.

    On my tower PC I'm a "keyboardist" for navigation and have been since learning it in W95. Browsers and Taskbar are all I really use the mouse for, although there are shortcut combos for Taskbar. I had no problem adapting to 8.x with keyboard. In fact Page up/down, End/Home, and arrow keys work very well on the Start Screen to reach a tile quickly. While I'm there I'm getting information that the Start Menu didn't give me. I'm also desiring to get a touch monitor for quicker navigating. A tilted monitor such as the Surface would be best.

    Like I stated, I used to use the hidden Taskbar of which I found best for me. Although silly, it can be filled/sized to fill the whole screen if one desires. I've tried the Desktop icons as you posted. I can understand that until I need to get to an icon with a window or more open and in the way. Then I have to move or minimize to get to an icon, or use the Start Button (or Windows key) to open the Start Menu to get to a link there. There is no difference whether I open the Start Menu vs the Start Screen so far as that goes. I would still have to scroll in either (at times). I find it easier to simply roll the mouse right (no mouse clicking) to get to what I need then click. That's, of course, if I use the mouse. With Taskbar, Start Menu, or Start Screen the desktop doesn't get disturbed unlike with desktop icons.

    I'm not going to argue which UI menu is faster, but I will stress that the Start Screen gives me a whole lot more personal data than the old system, especially upon boot or wake with using less system resources. I've posted the link to my thread many a times, but it seems no one (but a few) wants to answer to it. The system is simply quicker in that respect.

    BTW, one can configure using the same background image on both the Desktop and Start Screen in 8.1. I use Bing Desktop which gives me a new image daily.

    The Real Quality Boot Time of 8 Verses 7
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  4. #24


    Quote Originally Posted by bru View Post
    Man you like to write.
    Yes I do now that I have the time in retirement. Simply stating my opinion just as everyone has a right. Is there something wrong with that? I'm quite sure there are some that don't read my posts and I'm also quite sure some would simply want me to go away.

    So I guess all the articles etc. bemoaning the lack of a true Start Button in 8 and 8.1 are just one man's opinion (times thousands).
    I could post a lot of articles in which authors are proponents of the new system "(times thousands)". There are members that posted here that came from Macs that claim the system is very similar. And it is in many respects.

    I could go on but why. If you like the way 8 and 8.1 are (lacking a true Start Button) don't move to 9 or don't install Update 2 if it includes it (which I doubt it will).
    Oh you can bet your sweet bippy I'll be upgrading to every new OS and update. Purchasing other devices as well. They only get better with time.

    If they reintroduce the Start Menu (of which I'm hoping they do for those that want it) I'm quite sure it'll be optional just as we saw the changes from 8 to 8.1. I absolutely have no qualms with personalization. In fact, I think 8 was too extreme so far as that goes.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  5. #25


    Posts : 149
    Windows 7 Home Premium on 2 Windows 8.1 on 1


    Quote Originally Posted by HippsieGypsie View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bru View Post
    Man you like to write.
    Yes I do now that I have the time in retirement. Simply stating my opinion just as everyone has a right. Is there something wrong with that? I'm quite sure there are some that don't read my posts and I'm also quite sure some would simply want me to go away.
    No nothing wrong with it. And I don't think much about it either way whether you stay or go.

    But I know me and many others on the internet tune out after one or two sentences. Its a fact in our fast paced world. You may have good things to say but many might not ever read them because it may be at the end of a four paragraph 800 word post.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  6. #26


    Quote Originally Posted by HippsieGypsie View Post
    Ok, Walt. Fair enough. All a matter of personal choice. This topic has been debated ad nausea.

    The short of it is, if you don't use touch, then Metro does nothing except get in your way...
    On the contrary. Personally it's a great aid to me and never in the way.

    It may be more than 1 million, but what's selling at the moment? I know that W8 numbers aren't the best, but still selling none the less, especially on mobile units. Drastic change is always slow in any product until proven better.

    Keep in mind that there is no faster navigation than with the finger. I'm quite sure everyone would agree with that.
    HippsieG,

    Bear in mind that I'm using 8.1x64, fully updated, and the only 3rd-party UI software I am using is Classic Shell's start menu. I much prefer Win8's under-the-hood performance to that of Win7, and its built-in .iso mounting function has turned out to be a feature I find myself using all the time as it's so convenient and powerful (and far more elegant than a 3rd-party hack like Daemon Tools was for me in Win7.)

    The central problem with Metro, imo, is that Microsoft deliberately crippled the Win8 gui in order to force people to use a bunch of scrolling "start screens" instead of a single, convenient "start menu." The heck of it is, Microsoft more or less felt it *had to omit a start menu* from Win8 otherwise 95% of the people buying and running Win8 would run the start menu instead of the start screen(s). The logic Microsoft used for this decision was "bass ackwards," in my opinion. Far better to provide *both* solutions in the OS and let the customers decide which one they prefer, as opposed to trying to force something on their customers for purely arbitrary reasons, somethingthat is better suited to touchscreen environments. (Metro just isn't suited for traditional non-touch at all, imo.) So, now Microsoft is hustling and bustling in order to shoehorn a "start menu" back into Windows and simply let their customers decide which UI they'd prefer to use. Had Microsoft done this in the beginning, Win8 would have sold far better than it has to date. The really bizarre thing to me is that although it is easily possible to run Win8 without ever seeing the Metro UI, and even though the explorer.exe is mandatory for many critical tasks in Windows 8 (pull up the Device Manager, for instance--that's not Metro, that's the explorer.exe UI), Microsoft is still pretending (at least in public) that the only way to use Win8 is with the Metro UI--and as I've just illustrated, not only is that not true, but there are many critical UI areas in Win8 that do not and cannot be run under Metro at all. So Metro itself, even for touchscreens, is half-baked at best.

    OK, last, I'm sort of surprised you'd say: "Keep in mind that there is no faster navigation than with the finger. I'm quite sure everyone would agree with that."

    ... I just don't think you've given this a lot of thought, really... Quick example of many possible examples disproving your hypothesis:

    You are sitting at a desk in a chair facing your 27" (measured diagonally) computer monitor; In front of you, of course, is your keyboard and mouse. Pretend that the task before you is a very simple UI task, that is, you have to activate an icon at the bottom left corner of your monitor, and then activate an icon at the top right-hand corner of your monitor touchscreen.

    Touchscreen: I click on the bottom left corner icon with my right index finger, then I move my entire arm the full 27 inches diagonally so that I can click the icon in the top right-hand corner of my screen, also with my right index finger.

    Mouse: (assuming the mouse cursor is mid-screen when I begin) I rest my palm on the mouse and rotate only my wrist perhaps 1/2 of an inch to move the cursor over the bottom left-hand icon and then left-click the LMB with my right index finger; I then rotate my right wrist approximately 3/4 of an inch so that the cursor is now positioned over the top right-hand corner icon, and then simply press the LMB with my right index finger to also activate the second icon in the exercise.

    With the touchscreen I have to move my entire arm 27" to press both icons; with the mouse I merely have to rotate my wrist a total of maybe 1.5 inches and click on the LMB twice to accomplish the identical goal. Winner, ease of use and speed: mouse, hands down. Now, think about moving your arm all around that 27" touch screen to press on screen icons all day long while doing a variety of tasks, versus rotating your wrist slightly and left-clicking when needed to accomplish the same things. The winner again is the mouse by a wide margin.

    Next, suppose the area required for activation is only a few pixels wide? The fingertip will prove to be fairly crude in precision compared to a high-resolution mouse (high dpi accuracy.)

    Next, what about general cleanliness comparing a screen you've been touching all day with your fingers versus a screen you haven't touched even once for the entire day? WHich do you think will require more cleaning and hygiene?

    Finally, HippsieG, know that I certainly respect your preferences and this post isn't meant to persuade you of anything--it's only meant to illustrate why *I* prefer the mouse & keyboard to a touchscreen-driven gui...
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  7. #27


    Posts : 149
    Windows 7 Home Premium on 2 Windows 8.1 on 1


    It seems as if it won't be coming to 8.1 but I tend to agree with this assessment of why a different type of Start menu is needed.

    Why Windows needs a Start menu - CNET
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  8. #28


    I'm enjoying our "challenging", but constructive exchange, Walt. My main goal in all this is to bring out the facts and omit opinions. It seems to me that opinions cause arguments and they don't promote constructive discussions. This is not to say that I don't post my opinion. I can, however, state that I try my utmost to filter them out, only to consider the facts.

    I believe the biggest fact is that MS as a business is moving in quite different and diverse directions in order to turn over a profit. Since Windows is their "main stay" and the tower PC is a dying business, would it not make good business sense to get that to run on as many devices as possible along with introducing and selling devices and services? It also seems to me that a touch UI is becoming more of a demand these days. That along with scanners. We see it more and more as time goes on. In any business there is evolution in the way things are performed and/or created. Robotics is a good example. Touch and scanning is another. Warehousing would unprofitable without scanning today. Touch cash registers, ATM monitors, airport terminals, train stations, jukeboxes, and others.

    Quote Originally Posted by waltc View Post
    HippsieG,

    Bear in mind that I'm using 8.1x64, fully updated, and the only 3rd-party UI software I am using is Classic Shell's start menu. I much prefer Win8's under-the-hood performance to that of Win7, and its built-in .iso mounting function has turned out to be a feature I find myself using all the time as it's so convenient and powerful (and far more elegant than a 3rd-party hack like Daemon Tools was for me in Win7.)
    No doubt it's a leaner (using less resources) with added features we always expected with "the next OS". I find it hard to believe that it runs so well on older machines such as mine. I thought with 8 I would have to upgrade hardware, but it runs as good if not better than 7 did. Boots faster also, especially with giving me personal data as I stated.

    Perhaps 8.x aided in the declining tower PC market. Nothing wrong with saving people money, especially with the the declined economies these past years.

    The central problem with Metro, imo, is that Microsoft deliberately crippled the Win8 gui in order to force people to use a bunch of scrolling "start screens" instead of a single, convenient "start menu." The heck of it is, Microsoft more or less felt it *had to omit a start menu* from Win8 otherwise 95% of the people buying and running Win8 would run the start menu instead of the start screen(s). The logic Microsoft used for this decision was "bass ackwards," in my opinion. Far better to provide *both* solutions in the OS and let the customers decide which one they prefer, as opposed to trying to force something on their customers for purely arbitrary reasons, somethingthat is better suited to touchscreen environments. (Metro just isn't suited for traditional non-touch at all, imo.) So, now Microsoft is hustling and bustling in order to shoehorn a "start menu" back into Windows and simply let their customers decide which UI they'd prefer to use. Had Microsoft done this in the beginning, Win8 would have sold far better than it has to date. The really bizarre thing to me is that although it is easily possible to run Win8 without ever seeing the Metro UI, and even though the explorer.exe is mandatory for many critical tasks in Windows 8 (pull up the Device Manager, for instance--that's not Metro, that's the explorer.exe UI), Microsoft is still pretending (at least in public) that the only way to use Win8 is with the Metro UI--and as I've just illustrated, not only is that not true, but there are many critical UI areas in Win8 that do not and cannot be run under Metro at all. So Metro itself, even for touchscreens, is half-baked at best.
    I find this to be rather exaggerating. There's not "a bunch of scrolling start screens". There's one. I'll give you Apps Screen, so 2. If we think about it, they took the Start Menu and divided it in 4. The Start Screen, Apps Screen, the advanced context menu (power user task menu) in the lower-left hot corner of the screen, and Charms, so it was something new to learn, which I feel a lot of people detested. I'm not pointing fingers, but some people just don't like or cope with change, including me at times. It seems resisting change is part of our human nature. There were/are different materials, techniques, and designs in construction of which is my profession. I had/have to keep up or I lose out. I found that keeping up with the times made me more money.

    Where did you get that 95% would want to use a Start Menu? Please make reference. Stats are difficult to find. This may be an example of stating a biased opinion rather than fact. It states in the blog linked below of which includes stats that less and less used the Start Menu as time went on. If one follows the trend of those stats with given time it would most certainly be used less. Therefore, MS took the opportunity to introduce something different. Admittedly vastly different to fit into their new business model so as to sell items to turn over a profit just as in any business. If a business doesn't keep up then they go under.

    Admittedly I think MS would like it if 8 never saw the light of day. 8.1 was much improvement. That's what should have been released. The old bosses are gone and the new ones are in place.

    As with a lot of .exe-s like Explorer, in time they will be replaced with a Modern/Metro Store app such as we see with the OneDrive app that somewhat resembles Explorer. I think a lot more will be introduced in 9.

    Now that we’ve briefly discussed the history of the Start menu, let’s discover how people are actually using it. We thought it would be interesting to see how the usage of the menu has changed over time. Figure 3 reveals the change in Start menu usage across the two versions of Windows.
    Evolving the Start menu - Building Windows 8 - Site Home - MSDN Blogs

    OK, last, I'm sort of surprised you'd say: "Keep in mind that there is no faster navigation than with the finger. I'm quite sure everyone would agree with that."

    ... I just don't think you've given this a lot of thought, really... Quick example of many possible examples disproving your hypothesis:

    You are sitting at a desk in a chair facing your 27" (measured diagonally) computer monitor; In front of you, of course, is your keyboard and mouse. Pretend that the task before you is a very simple UI task, that is, you have to activate an icon at the bottom left corner of your monitor, and then activate an icon at the top right-hand corner of your monitor touchscreen.

    Touchscreen: I click on the bottom left corner icon with my right index finger, then I move my entire arm the full 27 inches diagonally so that I can click the icon in the top right-hand corner of my screen, also with my right index finger.

    Mouse: (assuming the mouse cursor is mid-screen when I begin) I rest my palm on the mouse and rotate only my wrist perhaps 1/2 of an inch to move the cursor over the bottom left-hand icon and then left-click the LMB with my right index finger; I then rotate my right wrist approximately 3/4 of an inch so that the cursor is now positioned over the top right-hand corner icon, and then simply press the LMB with my right index finger to also activate the second icon in the exercise.

    With the touchscreen I have to move my entire arm 27" to press both icons; with the mouse I merely have to rotate my wrist a total of maybe 1.5 inches and click on the LMB twice to accomplish the identical goal. Winner, ease of use and speed: mouse, hands down. Now, think about moving your arm all around that 27" touch screen to press on screen icons all day long while doing a variety of tasks, versus rotating your wrist slightly and left-clicking when needed to accomplish the same things. The winner again is the mouse by a wide margin.

    Next, suppose the area required for activation is only a few pixels wide? The fingertip will prove to be fairly crude in precision compared to a high-resolution mouse (high dpi accuracy.)

    Next, what about general cleanliness comparing a screen you've been touching all day with your fingers versus a screen you haven't touched even once for the entire day? WHich do you think will require more cleaning and hygiene?

    Finally, HippsieG, know that I certainly respect your preferences and this post isn't meant to persuade you of anything--it's only meant to illustrate why *I* prefer the mouse & keyboard to a touchscreen-driven gui...
    Oh, I thought long and hard about touch. One needs the proper equipment to perform touch. Perhaps you and others aren't familiar with touch screens and/or devices today. Let's forget the traditional tower PC monitor and introduce a tilted monitor with the Windows flag, back arrow, and search buttons on the bottom frame as we see on Nokia, Surface, and other devices. The monitor would be tilted and placed closer to the user so as to be comfortable in both reach and view. The mouse can be placed in basically the same position and a keyboard drawer is a definite must on any proper computer desk IMO. This to me would be an efficient setup.

    When you mention icon, I assume you're referring to the on screen Start Flag in the lower left Hot Corner. The physical hard Start button remedies that. With the 3 physical buttons surely touch is way quicker than mouse and/or keyboard > Hands down.

    One could place multiple monitors in a crescent with a proper accommodating desk.

    A pen would remedy the precision and hygiene problems, yes? The pen is quite a diverse peripheral. It actually replaces both the mouse and keyboard altogether via touch UI. One can write instead of typing if one prefers.

    All in all, I'd like to see the results of a scientific study performed by the old and new systems as I described. That to me would settle a lot of disputes. I'd have to place my money on the new.

    In closing, like you, I respect your preferences and I'm not here to persuade anyone into something I prefer. I'm just trying to share my thoughts with all the facts I can find.
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  9. #29


    Adelaide
    Posts : 1,338
    Windows 7 Ultimate SP1 (64 bit), Linux Mint 17.1 MATE (64 bit)

    Minority?


    Quote Originally Posted by HippsieGypsie View Post
    You mean Windows 7 advocates here on forums want, which are but a minority in proportion to the general public worldwide.
    Minority?
    You are using an interesting mathematics system.

    W7 has ~4x as many Desktop users as W8.
    XP still has ~2x as many Desktop users as W8.

    W8 vs XP numbers look better for W8 on W3Counter (but W7 still has ~4x as many users).
    W3Counter: Global Web Stats


    According to Web metrics firm Net Applications, Vista dropped 0.2 percentage points during September to end the month at an 18.6% slice of the operating system pie. It was the first decline for Vista since a 0.3 percentage-point slip in January 2008.
    Computerworld - Gregg Keizer (October 2, 2009)
    Vista peaks, starts decline in share as Windows 7 surges - Computerworld


    After nearly 2 years, the W8 "collection" has only managed to gain ~2/3 of Vista's peak market share.

    OTOH, I'm sure that W8 is installed on more mobile devices than XP or Vista.
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  10. #30


    A Finnish ex-pat in Leipzig, Germany
    Posts : 1,452
    Windows 8.1 Pro with Media Center


    Quote Originally Posted by lehnerus2000 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by HippsieGypsie View Post
    You mean Windows 7 advocates here on forums want, which are but a minority in proportion to the general public worldwide.
    Minority?
    You are using an interesting mathematics system.
    Apparently we read and understand Hippsie's post differently. Of course it can be English not being my native language but as far as I can understand what Hippsie wrote, he means that the amount of Windows 7 advocates here at the Eight Forums is just a fraction of the worldwide general public.
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