Windows 8 and 8.1 Forums


Microsoft to shake-up Windows 8 Start screen

  1. #41


    Posts : 5,707
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Travis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Coke Robot View Post
    It's what I've said once before, most people don't like the Start Screen because it's change. It's a different and easier way to do the same thing that has been done for years.
    Just because you repeat yourself doesn't mean you're correct.

    1.) When someone says, "I don't like it", unless they give a specific reason after that, you can't assume what you just did. You're just projecting. If people didn't like change as much as you think, the world wouldn't have adapted to smart phones. I mean, who the hell needs a phone to do anything except make calls? And digital cameras? Gee, who's got a grudge against silver halide salt crystals? Why doesn't everyone demand prop planes instead of jets? Why aren't we clamoring for big boxy televisions and more stairs instead of elevators? Your reasoning here is terrible. It's got nothing to do with some abstract notion of change - and as much as people tell you this, you still ignore it. I don't know why you seem to have a chip on your shoulder against people who don't like Windows 8 as much as you. I don't disparage you for loving it. Why would I care? I'm glad you love it. I've never read anyone who insists you not like Windows 8, or that you're an idiot for doing so. Maybe they're out there, but if they are they are rare and they are idiots. Why do you insist the anti-Metro folks have inferior motives to you?

    2.) You continue to ignore the reams of practical criticism from people who disagree with you. You say Metro makes everything easier? I don't think it's easier to get things done at all. Goodness, seems we have a disagreement here. Is it because you like change more than I do? Is it because I'm stupid? Is it because I can't adapt? Or is it because Metro is nothing more than a PITA to me? I'll give you a hint, Coke: Occam's razor. Metro is in the way of everything I want to do. Maybe you like a nice little box for the weather staring at you first thing when you turn on your computer. Or maybe it's some other app. I don't give a poop about apps on a desktop. A phone or tablet is a different story. App away on those. But there is no photo app more powerful than the full version of Photoshop. Or Word. Or Excel. Or most games. Or a DAW. On and on. Oh, but you can put that stuff on the Metro screen. Gee, what forward thinking. Why do I need Metro for that? Because it's different? Because it's change? That's your big reason? You haven't really replaced the Start button at all. You've just blown it up to the size of the entire screen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coke Robot View Post
    We're here, six years after vista, and we're still using an OS that acts and looks much like vista.


    No, here we are three decades later and MS and Mac are still using pretty much the same OS concept - move mouse, click a window. Wonder why it's been that long? Maybe because it's worked? If someone can think of something better than what these two companies have done, fine. But the reasons for it have to be better than the ones you give.
    Why, after a good hundred years after the internal combustion engine, are we looking for something else to do the same thing? Sure, the engine has worked in the past, and is working now, and can be improved upon in the future to an extent. Yet, we're here in a time where all sorts of people are thinking of and building new and different and innovative ways to go from point A to point B without fossil fuels. Is it that needs are different now? Is it that people are moving away from large vehicles that use gallons of gas to smaller ones? Do we just want cleaner environments? Or maybe after doing the same thing for a 100 years and having infrastructure built for a gas powered car, we just simply want to use something else that isn't of archaic technology of a century ago?

    Sure, Microsoft has been designing operating systems that are windowed and have menus and have mouse pointers that have worked, but that isn't where technology and input will be 10 years from now. Windows 8 is bringing two new inputs into play, touch and gesture, two nature human ways to interact with a surrounding environment.

    Here's going out on a limb, racism. There are people that don't like someone because they look different and act different than them. The natural human response is to not like that person just because they're different than you. The same applies to something that is totally different than what is around. Like the Windows Phone 7, some people adore it, some people don't like it. The people I've come across that don't like it don't actually give a reason, they just don't like it because it's too different. We're so inept to seeing grids of icons and a covered up picture background that we think the only way to be productive and connect with people is through dozens of apps. When a phone that is designed to be simpler, easier, and has a better way to connect with your people, some don't like it.

    The same goes for Windows 8, some don't like it just because. Some don't like it because it's difficult to use when honestly, it's not, initially yes. I may pass off that I have chip on my shoulder and that's because I'm starting to think people honestly have a superficial view of what an operating system is. I'm getting a little ticked that people are wanting a metro shut off button included to keep the course of technology limited to a start menu, taskbar, and a desktop background. I don't want to keep seeing Windows becoming just warmed over versions as the last because if it does, in the long run, Windows will be bombarded out by new comers to the OS game, like apple, android and google. I see Windows 8 as an innovation to show everyone that best is doing what they do best.

    As for metro screens, you need to use a Windows Phone to understand it, it's a different design scheme unlike anyone else has. But you need to clarify, you need to use the Desktop to launch Photoshop, or Word, or Excel, or games?

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  2. #42


    Posts : 288
    Windows 7 Ultimate, Windows Developer Preview, Linux Mint 9


    Coke, you yourself have said that you think Microsoft sucks in consumer marketing, if I remember it right and I do not believe they are the "best" by the end of the day and your view of what's "better" is different from we critics of the Metro see things are. And how sure are you that many app developers out there will make and improve Metro apps? Many developers out there would rather create and sell serious Desktop apps that are easier to manage and can do more things than the typical Metro apps we've seen on the WDP and even on the screenshots of the coming Consumer Preview have not convinced me that there is anything significantly new of the design we've seen of Metro apps. No window controls still. And compare that to Android, they have already spread their roots and have thousands of apps and still growing and I think it would be very hard for Windows to compete with that. Perhaps if they add window controls at least, it wold be an advantage over Android apps. I'm using a desktop PC with a decent screen, not a tiny screen and if my resizable desktop app can do what a full screen Metro app can do, what is the point of using a Metro app? Perhaps on a smartphone, it would do more sense but I'm using a desktop. Hello a desktop.

    If MS responds to criticism, I don't think they would "listen" very well or change the course of development significantly at all because as far as the screenshots can tell, its still the same design from the WDP. I am optimistic too and I hope they would make significant changes. The research done by MS is way too "legit"? How would that explain the tons of negative criticism Metro is still getting now? I am optimistic about something coming in my favor but as time passes with me seeing not what I expect, I get turned away.
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  3. #43


    Posts : 5,707
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    Quote Originally Posted by Vertex View Post
    Coke, you yourself have said that you think Microsoft sucks in consumer marketing, if I remember it right and I do not believe they are the "best" by the end of the day and your view of what's "better" is different from we critics of the Metro see things are. And how sure are you that many app developers out there will make and improve Metro apps? Many developers out there would rather create and sell serious Desktop apps that are easier to manage and can do more things than the typical Metro apps we've seen on the WDP and even on the screenshots of the coming Consumer Preview have not convinced me that there is anything significantly new of the design we've seen of Metro apps. No window controls still. And compare that to Android, they have already spread their roots and have thousands of apps and still growing and I think it would be very hard for Windows to compete with that. Perhaps if they add window controls at least, it wold be an advantage over Android apps. I'm using a desktop PC with a decent screen, not a tiny screen and if my resizable desktop app can do what a full screen Metro app can do, what is the point of using a Metro app? Perhaps on a smartphone, it would do more sense but I'm using a desktop. Hello a desktop.

    If MS responds to criticism, I don't think they would "listen" very well or change the course of development significantly at all because as far as the screenshots can tell, its still the same design from the WDP. I am optimistic too and I hope they would make significant changes. The research done by MS is way too "legit"? How would that explain the tons of negative criticism Metro is still getting now? I am optimistic about something coming in my favor but as time passes with me seeing not what I expect, I get turned away.
    Yeah, I have said Microsoft sucks at consumer advertising. They've had to rely on their third party manufacturers and developers to do that, everything from Windows, Xbox, and partly now for Windows Phone. I look at it this way, Microsoft has thousands of developers from Windows Phone to Windows. Many a Windows Phone developer knows how to use metro design for their apps:large typography, simplicity, and vibrancy. A Windows developer knows how to use a larger screen in a desktop environment to make use of their programs. Considering there are, again, thousands of those developers, I'm pretty sure they would combine the two design thoughts together to make use of the Start Screen, Live Tiles, and full screen apps.

    If I were to make money off a program or an app, I'd probably put my eggs into the app market. It's simple math, if i have an app that people like and is rather useful that costs 10 dollars. If I make that same app into a desktop program with more features that costs 100 dollars, where would more money be made? Considering that there could be a potential of at least 100 million users of Windows 8 in a year or two, my 10 dollar app would be where the money is made. Why? It's 10 dollars versus a 100 dollar program. Most people don't buy anti-virus protection because it's an additional expense. Most people don't buy the latest version of Microsoft Office. Why? They carry hefty price tags.

    Hmm, from how I look at this, when you switch to a different app, the previous is suspended until you go back to it. On the desktop, you if you have two programs open, you minimize one which reduces some system resource usage. Then you switch to the other program and go back to the other one until you click on it on the taskbar. It seems to me it's a similar concept in different form. Windows 8 Consumer Preview will let you kill an app after you're done with it. So honestly, it really is a similar concept.

    I use Windows 8 on my desktop every single day since September. It's a fairly good sized monitor attached to it, with a new one in line. There aren't apps right now to make full use of a desktop monitor, but that could change.

    What is it about a metro app turns you off?
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  4. #44


    Posts : 738
    1st W10 Professional x64/W7 Ultimate x64 - 2nd Remote system: W10 Insider Builds/W7 Professional


    I think the only way we are going to know one way or the other is once the beta is available for a good lookover to see just what MS has in mind. If it turns looking anything like the Preview i can imagine the sales for 7 will peak!
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  5. #45


    Posts : 288
    Windows 7 Ultimate, Windows Developer Preview, Linux Mint 9


    Well we have systems with lots of RAM and really good processors now, Coke and having 20 opened Desktop apps would be of ease without having to suspend the rest and resource usage on some of these apps do lower if that app has been idle for a few minutes. With full screen Metro apps, I don't think most people would pay even 10 dollars for that if a Desktop app or even a desktop gadget which is more accustomed to them would be available for free download anyway. In fact many of the fancy paid apps out there have a free alternative somewhere. Remember we got thousands and thousands of free programs available for download. 100 dollar Desktop apps?? Well don't be exaggerated over there, apps that reach those prices are of professional office software or AV software suites. Microsoft has app developers and of course their company want them to works as team players and cooperate on what the company wants but I believe there are even more developers who don't work for Microsoft and these are the guys who would have mixed opinions and won't have MS force them what to do. In fact, I have not felt any uproar of so many developers rushing in to make Metro apps but time will tell.

    What is it in Metro apps that turns me off? I'm pretty sure you are aware I don't like the Start Menu taking the whole screen, I can't live with full screen apps on a huge monitor that doesn't have window controls and I just can't multitask with it the way I do on Desktop apps. I have said that a number of times.
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  6. #46


    Posts : 33
    Windows 7 SP1 x64


    SCIENTIFIC research is the be all and end all of anything. It's totally ridiculous to suggest that MOST people don't like Metro. It's just that those people tend to be more vocal. Microsoft's research has shown MOST people would benefit from Metro on the DESKTOP. That's why they will NEVER listen to those small number of Luddites no matter how vocal they are. As I said previously, with both Ubuntu and OS X going the exact same route, Luddites are going to have a very frustrating time in coming years.

    And so far NOT ONE Metro hater on this thread has given any SPECIFIC evidence of how Metro hampers their productivity. It's the same old illogical rants.
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  7. #47


    Posts : 993
    Windows 8 pro Retail


    Colonel Travis said:
    No, here we are three decades later and MS and Mac are still using pretty much the same OS concept - move mouse, click a window. Wonder why it's been that long? Maybe because it's worked? If someone can think of something better than what these two companies have done, fine. But the reasons for it have to be better than the ones you give.


    *Waves hand* I can, thought activated processing.
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  8. #48


    Posts : 228
    Black Label 7x64


    Quote Originally Posted by pezzonovante View Post
    SCIENTIFIC research is the be all and end all of anything. It's totally ridiculous to suggest that MOST people don't like Metro. It's just that those people tend to be more vocal. Microsoft's research has shown MOST people would benefit from Metro on the DESKTOP. That's why they will NEVER listen to those small number of Luddites no matter how vocal they are. As I said previously, with both Ubuntu and OS X going the exact same route, Luddites are going to have a very frustrating time in coming years.

    And so far NOT ONE Metro hater on this thread has given any SPECIFIC evidence of how Metro hampers their productivity. It's the same old illogical rants.
    Your certificate of Master of Luddite Usage is in the mail. Maybe you could lay off the insults (or at least learn new ones) and use the logic you seem to demand from everyone else? How old are you?

    Who said most people hated Metro? I didn't. I don't know how many people hate it and I don't care, just as much as I don't care how many love Metro. Why do you take this stuff so personally? Are you that thin-skinned about an OS? You can love your little Metro all day long.

    I gave "SPECIFIC evidence" about why Metro hampers me, but since you can't or don't feel like reading, I'll give it again: I have no use for any Metro app on a desktop. Zero. Phones? I love apps. Tablets? I love apps. Desktops? No. I don't want a cute little box for my pictures on my start-up screen. I don't want a weather box. I don't want a @#$%! box for a store begging me to buy even more crap I don't want. No app is as powerful as the programs I use now on a desktop. Metro apps are useless for me <----- Did you get that part? Not you. Me. But that's not the important word. "Useless" is the important word. Everything in Metro is either wasting my time getting to the stuff I use, or just putting it in an order that's aesthetically different from my 7 desktop/start button. Otherwise, there is no real, practical, fundamental change. As much as you and Coke and anyone else can scream there's MAJOR CHANGE GOING ON HERE!, you're refusing to acknowledge how little there really is. Like I said, the start button isn't gone, it's just the size of the entire screen and it's open all day long. You like that? Awesome. It serves no use for me. It does nothing but get in my way. It's like MS is nailing on one OS on top of another OS. There is too little cohesiveness between the two. If they could merge them better, I might really like. Might even love it. I don't know. All I know is the garbage they produced. And I might like the current garbage more if the design didn't look like a 6-year-old put it together. Funny how two different people can think differently about the same thing? Wonder why that is. You may think Metro is beautiful and sophisticated. I think it looks like Fisher-Price. Again, that's just me. Not you. Me. Got it?
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  9. #49


    Posts : 228
    Black Label 7x64


    Quote Originally Posted by Coke Robot View Post
    Here's going out on a limb, racism. There are people that don't like someone because they look different and act different than them. The natural human response is to not like that person just because they're different than you. The same applies to something that is totally different than what is around.
    This is the stupidest thing I've ever read from you. Seriously. I can't even believe you'd drop that bomb. You continue to ignore what everyone who disagrees with you says and instead shoehorn them into stupid little cages of ignorance like this, far, far away from the Land of Enlightenment where you are. No one who's arguing with you is leveling the charges against you that you do against them. Learn how to have a rational discussion.
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  10. #50


    Posts : 162
    windows 7


    Quote Originally Posted by Coke Robot View Post

    Why, after a good hundred years after the internal combustion engine, are we looking for something else to do the same thing? Sure, the engine has worked in the past, and is working now, and can be improved upon in the future to an extent. Yet, we're here in a time where all sorts of people are thinking of and building new and different and innovative ways to go from point A to point B without fossil fuels. Is it that needs are different now? Is it that people are moving away from large vehicles that use gallons of gas to smaller ones? Do we just want cleaner environments? Or maybe after doing the same thing for a 100 years and having infrastructure built for a gas powered car, we just simply want to use something else that isn't of archaic technology of a century ago?
    This is the funniest thing that I have read for some time. Win8 is the "clean energy technology" of the computing era...LOL!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Coke Robot View Post
    Sure, Microsoft has been designing operating systems that are windowed and have menus and have mouse pointers that have worked, but that isn't where technology and input will be 10 years from now. Windows 8 is bringing two new inputs into play, touch and gesture, two nature human ways to interact with a surrounding environment.
    Well, touch and gesture are important in handheld devices. Touch has been part of interacting with phones since Graham Bell (nothing new here). There was touch in smartphones for ages...going back to almost the first devices. I fail to see the innovation here. But touch and gesture in non-handheld devices (desktops and laptops) is an idiocy!! Pure and simple. I sit at my desk and my screen (a 30-inch one) is about 2 - 3 feet away. Just let me know why would I want to exercise my shoulders touching it and gesticulating in front of it? Just try to do this and you would soon find out that the keyboard and the mouse are the fastest input methods in interacting with laptops and desktops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coke Robot View Post
    Here's going out on a limb, racism. There are people that don't like someone because they look different and act different than them. The natural human response is to not like that person just because they're different than you. The same applies to something that is totally different than what is around. Like the Windows Phone 7, some people adore it, some people don't like it. The people I've come across that don't like it don't actually give a reason, they just don't like it because it's too different. We're so inept to seeing grids of icons and a covered up picture background that we think the only way to be productive and connect with people is through dozens of apps. When a phone that is designed to be simpler, easier, and has a better way to connect with your people, some don't like it.
    You are so wrong here....First of all, "Metro" is quite old, there is nothing new about it. First, it was (and still is) in "Media Center"; then it showed up in Zune (for about 5 years or more) and has been in Windows Phone for about 2 years. So, it has been around. If people loved it, it would have been a winner. If Microsoft were certain that people would love it, it would have made it optional. In fact, Microsoft is not at all sure that people like Metro, so it has to shove it down their throats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coke Robot View Post
    The same goes for Windows 8, some don't like it just because. Some don't like it because it's difficult to use when honestly, it's not, initially yes. I may pass off that I have chip on my shoulder and that's because I'm starting to think people honestly have a superficial view of what an operating system is. I'm getting a little ticked that people are wanting a metro shut off button included to keep the course of technology limited to a start menu, taskbar, and a desktop background. I don't want to keep seeing Windows becoming just warmed over versions as the last because if it does, in the long run, Windows will be bombarded out by new comers to the OS game, like apple, android and google. I see Windows 8 as an innovation to show everyone that best is doing what they do best.
    This is really weird. Why are you annoyed that people want the choice not to run Metro? If you love it so much, use it. Take it to bed with you, we do not care. But why do you want others not to have choice??? What are you? A "Metro" Grand Inquisitor???? If you like it, all the power to you. In fact, if you think it is that "hot", give users a choice. If they love it as much as you do, they will enable it!! Actually, if you are afraid that Windows will be elbowed out by users, such tactics by Microsoft are bound to antagonize millions who are going to go to other OSs. Forcing a stupid interface down people's throats is not a winner, trust me. Personally, I will stay with Win7 and eventually I may migrate to MacOS or Android, running some Windows applications through virtual environments. Sorry, I do prefer a desktop OS, I have no use of mobile OS in my desktop. If MS gives me a choice, then I may stay with Windows.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coke Robot View Post
    As for metro screens, you need to use a Windows Phone to understand it, it's a different design scheme unlike anyone else has. But you need to clarify, you need to use the Desktop to launch Photoshop, or Word, or Excel, or games?
    I personally dislike Metro and Windows Phone. I find that the interface is just too "scrolly" and there is nothing there that a user cannot do with Android widgets (along with a much more customizable interface).
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Microsoft to shake-up Windows 8 Start screen
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