Windows 8 and 8.1 Forums


Microsoft to shake-up Windows 8 Start screen

  1. #91


    Posts : 288
    Windows 7 Ultimate, Windows Developer Preview, Linux Mint 9


    The desktop itself is far from perfection but tablets are not as powerful at the moment. Well in my place, tablets are very rare and so are Macs. Its like 1 is to 100 or even 200 or more against PC's. But I do not think that MS making their new OS a tablet-focused one is the answer. I do not find it convinient to use a touchscreen keyboard and more people will not be convinient using Photoshop on touch.This iPad may be alarming for MS but I think this current approad they are up to is the wrong way to go. If iPad works that way, maybe they should make something that you don't get on iPads, maybe multitasking apps with window controls is more logical. Many people who go for these iPads just go for something new, something in the hype rather than general usability along with the array of Apple fanboys. True, iPads do not need as much maintenance as Windows or AV suites for protection but which is easier for more people to use, which can run more programsmw which can do better on office work because of a real keyboard and mouse? Windows got that covered. iPads are just no good in multitasking and not as powerful as serious Windows PC that I could play serious FPS games on. And because of this, why would Windows try to impose the use of tablets on their new OS so they could hit 2 birds with one stone? But apparently, many people are unhappy because something just got in the way. Having a separate button for the Metro and the old Start menu can change so much. Adding window controls to existing Metro apps can also change much so that MS could live up to their name of Windows. But why havent they done so?


    Maybe, MS should try perfecting the inside core of their OS. Windows 8 is now faster at bootup and shutdown, kudos for that but what about more? Make System Refresh and System Reset possible even if Metro is disabled and without inserting the installation media. And how about shaping the OS that it needs little maintenance to work well like Macs? Time will tell. I guess things could change this month when consumer preview is released.

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  2. #92


    Posts : 5,707
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    Quote Originally Posted by Vertex View Post
    The desktop itself is far from perfection but tablets are not as powerful at the moment. Well in my place, tablets are very rare and so are Macs. Its like 1 is to 100 or even 200 or more against PC's. But I do not think that MS making their new OS a tablet-focused one is the answer. I do not find it convinient to use a touchscreen keyboard and more people will not be convinient using Photoshop on touch.This iPad may be alarming for MS but I think this current approad they are up to is the wrong way to go. If iPad works that way, maybe they should make something that you don't get on iPads, maybe multitasking apps with window controls is more logical. Many people who go for these iPads just go for something new, something in the hype rather than general usability along with the array of Apple fanboys. True, iPads do not need as much maintenance as Windows or AV suites for protection but which is easier for more people to use, which can run more programsmw which can do better on office work because of a real keyboard and mouse? Windows got that covered. iPads are just no good in multitasking and not as powerful as serious Windows PC that I could play serious FPS games on. And because of this, why would Windows try to impose the use of tablets on their new OS so they could hit 2 birds with one stone? But apparently, many people are unhappy because something just got in the way. Having a separate button for the Metro and the old Start menu can change so much. Adding window controls to existing Metro apps can also change much so that MS could live up to their name of Windows. But why havent they done so?


    Maybe, MS should try perfecting the inside core of their OS. Windows 8 is now faster at bootup and shutdown, kudos for that but what about more? Make System Refresh and System Reset possible even if Metro is disabled and without inserting the installation media. And how about shaping the OS that it needs little maintenance to work well like Macs? Time will tell. I guess things could change this month when consumer preview is released.
    I completely agree with you that desktops are still great and far more powerful than tablets. But that's catching up at a quick pace. A few years ago, single core smartphones were the thing. Now it's going towards dual core ARM processors, pretty soon, quad core ARM processors. ARM can only do so much, but that's where AMD and Intel come in. AMD is working on low powered APUs and Intel is working on slimming down their Atom processor. They're both working on perfecting their mobile processors to be more efficient for tablets.

    I think tablet usage varies from area to area. A year ago, I never saw a person use a tablet. This year, I've seen a few people use one. Though it's not much, that could easily change.

    Actually, in the upcoming Consumer Preview build of Windows 8, it will include a couple features to close metro apps without needing window control buttons. Again, it won't be significant for desktop users, but that's why the Desktop is still in Windows 8. It'll let you do this by click and holding the top of the window of the app, and you throw it out. It will work great for tablet and touch users. It will also work great with a mouse.

    Hmm, speaking of perfecting Windows' core, I've been reading about Microsoft's completely new OS architecture, called Midori. That might be what will replace the ENTIRE core of Windows. It's craziness, but time will tell.
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  3. #93


    Posts : 288
    Windows 7 Ultimate, Windows Developer Preview, Linux Mint 9


    By the time tablets get much more powerful, I expect that around 4 years as of now and Desktops would be more powerful by then too. I was feeling frustrated that Windows machines need maintenance to keep in good shape. That's the part I feel I'm good with computers, maintenance. To my view, the Registry should, by its own have the ability to rid off obsolete elements in it. If I was a head developer at MS, this is just one of the things I wanna put to Windows 8.
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  4. #94


    Posts : 5,707
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    Quote Originally Posted by Vertex View Post
    By the time tablets get much more powerful, I expect that around 4 years as of now and Desktops would be more powerful by then too. I was feeling frustrated that Windows machines need maintenance to keep in good shape. That's the part I feel I'm good with computers, maintenance. To my view, the Registry should, by its own have the ability to rid off obsolete elements in it. If I was a head developer at MS, this is just one of the things I wanna put to Windows 8.
    If I was head of Windows development, I would had put that active registry cleaning a LONG, LONG, LONG time ago...
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  5. #95


    Posts : 33
    Windows 7 SP1 x64


    Quote Originally Posted by ADRz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pezzonovante View Post

    Ha ha you are so incredibly ignorant on this issue! For the millionth time: Metro is NOT a touch-only interface. It is NOT a tablet interface. It is equally productive to use with a mouse and keyboard just as it is with touch.

    Metro apps are going to be incredibly rich and productive. They will slowly but surely completely replace fugly old classic apps.

    It's funny how you guys are always repeating the same thing: "If you love Metro -- so be it. Don't try to convince others." But you are doing the EXACT same thing when it comes to opposing Metro.

    As long as there are going to be people who illogically criticize Metro -- I'm going to point out how incredibly productive, beautiful and gorgeous it is. I'm not going anywhere. So get used to hearing about how great Metro is.
    You sound like a little kid that sees somebody wanting to take their toy away.

    If Metro apps are more capable than the current desktop apps, then I would buy them. But they are not going to be. These are going to be apps mainly for tablets and smartphones, not for the desktop. The very dynamics of touch make this a necessity. Yes, I realize that Metro does work with the keyboard and mouse but it is "touch first". Do you even understand what this means??? I think that you do not.

    "Touch first" means that an application is mainly designed for touch input. There are guidelines posted by MS to developers as to what this means. Elements of menus and selectable elements of text or other data have to be a certain size to be selected. This is a necessity for capacitive touch screens. When this essential guideline is enabled, everything needs to be much more simplified because one cannot include all the elements of a command structure and data in a "touch-first" program that one can include in a "keyboard-mouse" program. Thus, Metro-style apps are going to be these $1.99 -$4.99 apps that are being sold by all current "stores". There is no way of designing a rich Photoshop-type application to be touch-first and retain the capabilities of the "Keyboard -mouse" one. Just see what is possible today in the iPad world and you will get a good idea as to what these apps are going be like. You may, of course, want to believe that the iPad developers are not as good as the "Metro" developers but even you would not make this logical leap.
    Touch-first does NOT mean touch-ONLY. As Microsoft said over and over gain keyboard and mouse are going to be first class citizens in Metro world.

    And they have PROVED it with Metro Start Screen. The Metro Start Screen is FAR more productive and keyboard and mouse-friendly than the fugly old classic Start Menu. Yes, this is not just a promise -- it's a fact. You STILL have not been able to show ONE evidence how Metro Start Screen is not as friendly to use with a mouse/keyboard compared to the fugly old classic Start Menu. Because -- there is none.

    As I said before, the Windows Store has not opened yet. So, there's no way to tell yet how productive Metro APPS are going to be. I found your comparison with iOS laughable -- just like almost every other claim of yours. iOS is a TABLET and PHONE OS. Windows 8 is a DESKTOP and tablet OS. Windows 8's Metro apps are FAR more powerful than those iOS apps -- in fact Windows 8 is at least 5 years ahead of iOS in terms of technological advancement.

    But, the discussion of how powerful Metro apps are going to be is still theoretical. We'll know once Windows Store opens. But we ALREADY know -- from 5 months' experience of daily usage -- that the Metro Start Screen is FAR more productive to use with a mouse/keyboard than the fugly old classic Start Menu.

    And, oh yes, Metro is here to stay. No amount of whining or moaning will make Microsoft change their minds.
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  6. #96


    Posts : 288
    Windows 7 Ultimate, Windows Developer Preview, Linux Mint 9


    Quote Originally Posted by pezzonovante View Post

    Metro apps are going to be incredibly rich and productive. They will slowly but surely completely replace fugly old classic apps.



    As long as there are going to be people who illogically criticize Metro -- I'm going to point out how incredibly productive, beautiful and gorgeous it is. I'm not going anywhere. So get used to hearing about how great Metro is.
    Quote Originally Posted by pezzonovante View Post
    You sound like a little kid that sees somebody wanting to take their toy away.

    ITouch-first does NOT mean touch-ONLY. As Microsoft said over and over gain keyboard and mouse are going to be first class citizens in Metro world.

    And they have PROVED it with Metro Start Screen. The Metro Start Screen is FAR more productive and keyboard and mouse-friendly than the fugly old classic Start Menu. Yes, this is not just a promise -- it's a fact. You STILL have not been able to show ONE evidence how Metro Start Screen is not as friendly to use with a mouse/keyboard compared to the fugly old classic Start Menu. Because -- there is none.

    But, the discussion of how powerful Metro apps are going to be is still theoretical. We'll know once Windows Store opens. But we ALREADY know -- from 5 months' experience of daily usage -- that the Metro Start Screen is FAR more productive to use with a mouse/keyboard than the fugly old classic Start Menu.
    I do not understand why you always say the quoted underline statements above when you have no support as to why and insist you are correct by repeating the same statements. No offense, its almost as if its trolling. You are the one who keeps repeating it more productive for what logical reason? Metro apps are fullscreen, cannot be windowed, no close button, cannot be multitasked in the way Desktop apps are and there are with little content inside in proportion that full screen thing to compete with a Desktop app that is windowed, with a close button, multitaskable and compact with things to do. How can Metro apps be more productive in this sense on a desktop computer with a huge monitor, able to view just one fullscreen app at a time? People would think that is like drilling a hole into their heads.
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  7. #97


    Posts : 33
    Windows 7 SP1 x64


    Quote Originally Posted by Vertex View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pezzonovante View Post

    Metro apps are going to be incredibly rich and productive. They will slowly but surely completely replace fugly old classic apps.



    As long as there are going to be people who illogically criticize Metro -- I'm going to point out how incredibly productive, beautiful and gorgeous it is. I'm not going anywhere. So get used to hearing about how great Metro is.
    Quote Originally Posted by pezzonovante View Post
    You sound like a little kid that sees somebody wanting to take their toy away.

    ITouch-first does NOT mean touch-ONLY. As Microsoft said over and over gain keyboard and mouse are going to be first class citizens in Metro world.

    And they have PROVED it with Metro Start Screen. The Metro Start Screen is FAR more productive and keyboard and mouse-friendly than the fugly old classic Start Menu. Yes, this is not just a promise -- it's a fact. You STILL have not been able to show ONE evidence how Metro Start Screen is not as friendly to use with a mouse/keyboard compared to the fugly old classic Start Menu. Because -- there is none.

    But, the discussion of how powerful Metro apps are going to be is still theoretical. We'll know once Windows Store opens. But we ALREADY know -- from 5 months' experience of daily usage -- that the Metro Start Screen is FAR more productive to use with a mouse/keyboard than the fugly old classic Start Menu.
    I do not understand why you always say the quoted underline statements above when you have no support as to why and insist you are correct by repeating the same statements. No offense, its almost as if its trolling. You are the one who keeps repeating it more productive for what logical reason? Metro apps are fullscreen, cannot be windowed, no close button, cannot be multitasked in the way Desktop apps are and there are with little content inside in proportion that full screen thing to compete with a Desktop app that is windowed, with a close button, multitaskable and compact with things to do. How can Metro apps be more productive in this sense on a desktop computer with a huge monitor, able to view just one fullscreen app at a time? People would think that is like drilling a hole into their heads.
    I said Metro Start Screen is more productive than the fugly old classic Start Menu -- as has been proven by Microsof't blog posts and my own usage of almost 5 months.

    ONCE again, I challenge you to give me ONE scenario where the Metro Start Screen takes more effort to do a particular job than the fugly old classic Start Menu. PLEASE GIVE ME ONE EXAMPLE. I'M BEGGING FOR IT. COME ON. JUST ONE.
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  8. #98


    Posts : 288
    Windows 7 Ultimate, Windows Developer Preview, Linux Mint 9


    Quote Originally Posted by pezzonovante View Post
    I said Metro Start Screen is more productive than the fugly old classic Start Menu -- as has been proven by Microsof't blog posts and my own usage of almost 5 months.
    Your preference does not mean it should be the preference of others and regardless of the research mumbo jumbo that MS did, how come still so many are left unhappy? Is it because we do not accept change? Or is it this change just is not something that most of us see as more "effective" than what we go used to? Mainly because, Metro just takes over the whole screen even if it can display more tiles. We desktop users complain because fullscreen compromises us.

    Quote Originally Posted by pezzonovante View Post
    ONCE again, I challenge you to give me ONE scenario where the Metro Start Screen takes more effort to do a particular job than the fugly old classic Start Menu. PLEASE GIVE ME ONE EXAMPLE. I'M BEGGING FOR IT. COME ON. JUST ONE.
    I just said reasons why. They are not multitaskable. I could view multiple opened Desktop apps in one monitor at the same time. I could be working on Excel, Word and with web browser plus Windows Media Player listening to music and be able to switch in between them with a single click at the taskbar

    while

    with Metro apps, I could only view one full screen thing at a time and CANNOT BE WINDOWED so I can't see other opened apps unlike in the Desktop and to leave a Metro app, I need to go to back to the Start Screen by pressing the Windows Logo key, open another Metro app but since Metro apps self-terminate if idle, after I'm done using this app, the app I left before could have self terminated already. Metro apps like Piano still produce sound even if I already went back to the Start Screen and this is annoying! And what's more, Metro apps are too flat, even if they are already fullscreen, they use lots of space to display less data than a resizable Desktop app that can display more and do more. The Metro apps that came with WDP are not better than Chess Titans or Purble Place that came with Windows 7, oh wait, at least those can be windowed. What's more, Metro screen which is fullscreen ruined the old Start Menu that takes only a fraction of the screen and now even the search function on Metro still takes the whole screen.

    Take a good look at this screenshot and see that I can view MULTIPLE Desktop apps running at the same time on Windows 7 Desktop and be able to switch in between them with a SINGLE click. Check the screenshot on this link:

    https://www.eightforums.com/attachments/f1/f3/2980d1324721770-windows-8-will-largely-irrelevant-traditional-pc-users-idc-multitask-tv.png


    By the way, that live TV there on Windows Media Center and it has an option to stay on top of other Windows, meaning I could watch live TV while doing some office work AT THE SAME TIME.

    Can you do as much on Metro apps at the same time? Nope you CAN'T. I hope my English is not hard to understand and I hope I do not get the same response especially with the "fugly old" catchphrase line again.
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  9. #99


    Posts : 33
    Windows 7 SP1 x64


    I did not talk about Metro APPS because Windows Store has not opened as yet, and those "preview" apps in DP are not made by professionals but interns at Microsoft. Only AFTER professional apps appear on the Windows Store can we talk about them.

    I talked about the START SCREEN. How does the Start Screen hamper productivity compared to the Start Menu? For example, does it take more time to launch apps or find apps? NO IT DOES NOT. If you think otherwise -- PROVE IT. Rants like -- "I don't want a full screen full of tiles" is not good enough -- they are just rants. How is a full-screen Start Screen less productive than the Start Menu? The focus is moved away from the app you had been using previously anyway? How is the Start Screen worse. On the contrary -- it displays MUCH more information at a glance -- like number of emails, notifications, weather, scores, messages etc.

    Microsoft's research is not "mumbo jumbo" -- well maybe to a very tiny minority of Luddites who know ZERO about scienctific research. MOST consumers LOVE the Metro UI.

    And yet again -- you haven't given any SPECIFIC example against the Metro START SCREEN.
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  10. #100


    Posts : 162
    windows 7


    [QUOTE=pezzonovante;58940][QUOTE=ADRz;58783]
    Quote Originally Posted by pezzonovante View Post

    Touch-first does NOT mean touch-ONLY. As Microsoft said over and over gain keyboard and mouse are going to be first class citizens in Metro world.

    And they have PROVED it with Metro Start Screen. The Metro Start Screen is FAR more productive and keyboard and mouse-friendly than the fugly old classic Start Menu. Yes, this is not just a promise -- it's a fact. You STILL have not been able to show ONE evidence how Metro Start Screen is not as friendly to use with a mouse/keyboard compared to the fugly old classic Start Menu. Because -- there is none.

    As I said before, the Windows Store has not opened yet. So, there's no way to tell yet how productive Metro APPS are going to be. I found your comparison with iOS laughable -- just like almost every other claim of yours. iOS is a TABLET and PHONE OS. Windows 8 is a DESKTOP and tablet OS. Windows 8's Metro apps are FAR more powerful than those iOS apps -- in fact Windows 8 is at least 5 years ahead of iOS in terms of technological advancement.

    But, the discussion of how powerful Metro apps are going to be is still theoretical. We'll know once Windows Store opens. But we ALREADY know -- from 5 months' experience of daily usage -- that the Metro Start Screen is FAR more productive to use with a mouse/keyboard than the fugly old classic Start Menu.

    And, oh yes, Metro is here to stay. No amount of whining or moaning will make Microsoft change their minds.
    I really do not want to insult you, but you seem so intent to disregard any arguments to the contrary that you seem to replying to yourself, not to others. I explained to you what the concept of "touch-first" means but it does not seem to register. Let me try again: independent of the fact that you can interact with the application with a mouse, the application is primarily designed for touch. That, by itself, creates specific limitations (mainly of space) to these applications. Do you get it????

    Now, your claim that Win8 is a "desktop and tablet OS" while the iPad is a "tablet OS" is laughable. In fact, from what I hear, iPad3 (which will be introduced shortly), will run in a higher resolution and more demanding hardware than currently discussed Intel-based Win8 tablets. Thus, iPad programs would provide you very good indications as to what is possible with Win8 tablets. There is little doubt that developers for the iPad may be interested in porting their products to Win8 tablets. It would be the touch requirement that would dictate the richness and behavior of these products.

    The "desktop" is a wash. Desktop applications not designed for touch would work as they always have. They would be virtually inoperable in a tablet. Try running Photoshop in a 10'' inch screen and you would see what I mean.
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Microsoft to shake-up Windows 8 Start screen
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