Windows 8 and 8.1 Forums


Windows 8 will be 'largely irrelevant' to traditional PC users: IDC

  1. #61


    Posts : 9
    xp, vista, 7, 8dp, ubuntu, osx


    I think MS could make something out of Metro on the desktop by making it more a transparent layer on top of the desktop: something like launchpad on OSX. When combining the glass of aero and the tiles of metro MS could present a more logical and unified W8.
    A kind of HUD would be a move in the right direction if you understand what I mean .

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  2. #62


    Posts : 162
    windows 7


    Quote Originally Posted by Boris View Post
    I think MS could make something out of Metro on the desktop by making it more a transparent layer on top of the desktop: something like launchpad on OSX. When combining the glass of aero and the tiles of metro MS could present a more logical and unified W8.
    A kind of HUD would be a move in the right direction if you understand what I mean .
    Yes, I understand.

    OSX's Launchpad is a desktop application that presents installed programs in an iOS kind of way for users who come to the Mac from the iOS. Most Mac users do not bother with it. You can easily achieve the same thing in Win7, no big deal.

    The Start Screen is not OSX launchpad. I would have love it to be, but it is not. It is essentially another UI layer that runs specific type of applications (apps) that would be running on tablets or smartphones. Why MS thinks that I want to run these apps on my desktop is beyond me. The demands of desktop computing are totally different from the demands of tablets and desktops. It is absolutely beyond laughter to try to slap a non-windowing shell on top of Windows.

    However, the hunger for expanding profits makes people do weird things.
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  3. #63


    Posts : 288
    Windows 7 Ultimate, Windows Developer Preview, Linux Mint 9


    Hey ADRz, have you seen or tried this tutorial?

    https://www.eightforums.com/tutorials...ndows-8-a.html

    It makes you disable the Metro or enable it again via the context menu anytime, brings back our beloved Start Menu like on Windows 7 plus its also gets rid of the unwanted ribbon on Windows Explorer. The improved Task Manager also remains because there are hacks out there to turn off the Metro but they would disable the new task manager as well.


    Perhaps with the Metro out of the way, you could test drive Windows 8 and feel its performance.
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  4. #64


    Posts : 162
    windows 7


    Quote Originally Posted by Vertex View Post
    Hey ADRz, have you seen or tried this tutorial?

    https://www.eightforums.com/tutorials...ndows-8-a.html

    It makes you disable the Metro or enable it again via the context menu anytime, brings back our beloved Start Menu like on Windows 7 plus its also gets rid of the unwanted ribbon on Windows Explorer. The improved Task Manager also remains because there are hacks out there to turn off the Metro but they would disable the new task manager as well.


    Perhaps with the Metro out of the way, you could test drive Windows 8 and feel its performance.
    Yes, I am quite aware of the workaround and I have test-driven Win8. There are some moderate improvements over Win7 and I would have np problem installing Win8 in my business' computers if the Start Screen was not an integral part, whatever the workaround (which does have problems, however). I do not want any penny to Microsoft for Win8, not until it is "fixed". I think that users should vote with their wallets because this is the only thing that corporations listen to.
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  5. #65


    Posts : 288
    Windows 7 Ultimate, Windows Developer Preview, Linux Mint 9


    Yes, I am quite aware of the workaround and I have test-driven Win8. There are some moderate improvements over Win7 and I would have np problem installing Win8 in my business' computers if the Start Screen was not an integral part, whatever the workaround (which does have problems, however). I do not want any penny to Microsoft for Win8, not until it is "fixed". I think that users should vote with their wallets because this is the only thing that corporations listen to.
    If I get myself a new netbook, I would run Windows 8 DVP or Beta over it and disable Metro almost instantly using that tutorial as it will probably work on the Beta as well.

    Things I don't like on Windows 8 so far:

    1. Metro UI thing on Start Menu.
    2. Ribbon in Windows Explorer
    3. That thing that locks your computer from booting non Windows OSs.

    The other features so far are promising like the system reset and the Hyper V so I'm still standing to make a fair verdict of Windows 8. Those features are neat but matters more to us power users than average folks so unless there is some really big mojo that most people would be so happy about, I don't think Windows 8 would do a big hit like Windows 7. And hey, I like the native PDF reader too. I will have less reason to install Adobe on my machine.
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  6. #66


    Posts : 162
    windows 7


    Quote Originally Posted by Vertex View Post
    Yes, I am quite aware of the workaround and I have test-driven Win8. There are some moderate improvements over Win7 and I would have np problem installing Win8 in my business' computers if the Start Screen was not an integral part, whatever the workaround (which does have problems, however). I do not want any penny to Microsoft for Win8, not until it is "fixed". I think that users should vote with their wallets because this is the only thing that corporations listen to.
    If I get myself a new netbook, I would run Windows 8 DVP or Beta over it and disable Metro almost instantly using that tutorial as it will probably work on the Beta as well.

    Things I don't like on Windows 8 so far:

    1. Metro UI thing on Start Menu.
    2. Ribbon in Windows Explorer
    3. That thing that locks your computer from booting non Windows OSs.

    The other features so far are promising like the system reset and the Hyper V so I'm still standing to make a fair verdict of Windows 8. Those features are neat but matters more to us power users than average folks so unless there is some really big mojo that most people would be so happy about, I don't think Windows 8 would do a big hit like Windows 7. And hey, I like the native PDF reader too. I will have less reason to install Adobe on my machine.
    Thanks for your thoughts. I have a similar assessment of the situation so far. The virtualization capability is interesting but not a must for me. However, it indicates that moving forward, MS may change the mode dramatically and it will provide support for existing apps through virtualization.

    Disabling the Start Screen may create all kinds of problems, most of which are poorly understood at this time. Who knows what MS would devise. It may provide Windows Update only through an app of the Start Screen and many patches may require the Start Screen to be enabled. So, my guess is that if you want Windows 7, just stay with Windows 7. I have the feeling that most manufacturers would offer both options for a long time.

    Finally, think of moving to OSX. Apple does not need the Start Screen to move users to its desktop OS. Thus, you may see robust changes there as Apple is trying to crack the enterprise while MS is pre-occupied with tablets. I think that this strategy is being hatched at Apple as we speak.
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  7. #67


    Posts : 288
    Windows 7 Ultimate, Windows Developer Preview, Linux Mint 9


    Haha, I have Windows Update disabled on my Windows 7, I only install optional updates every few months. I like Windows 7 of course but there is always the thrill for me to move forwards so if there is a way for me to configure Windows 8 Beta to work more like Windows 7 but will still be able to use the improvements on memory usage and all the new features of course outside the Metro, then I'll try to work with Windows 8 Beta for a while. I've seen a guy on Youtube, disable Metro but when he tried to launch the Metro apps from Windows Explorer, they just failed to work since they needed the Metro to contain them so that they could be launched and used.

    I don't have plans on moving to a Mac at this point. Its just expensive for me and I'm much more famliar with Windows. I never used a Mac. I am a Linux user, however. I have Linux Mint 9 dual booted with my Windows 7 so I'm against this thing that may come with Windows 8 that locks off your machine from booting any non Windows OS. Even if Windows 8 comes with a built in virtual machine, I want a totally separate Linux system I can use. About Metro, the ribbon on Windows Explorer, plus the thing that locks off booting non Windows systems from your machine, I'm gonna say I'm a PC and those were NOT my idea!!

    My verdict on Micro$oft is that it seems they are more concerned on maximizing profits than perfecting technology. About Apple, well I don't use iPad or iPhones and I'm uncertain of what's gonna come up with them now that Steve Jobs is gone.
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  8. #68


    Posts : 5,707
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    I find it silly that some people think that Metro is ploy for cash. Ummm, I hate to break it to you, metro design from Microsoft has been around since 2006. This literally isn't new. The only new part of it is that it's come to the Desktop. I also find it silly that some knowingly expect Microsoft to demand 2 dollars for a metro weather app. First off, that's built in. There's no buying anything there. Even then, some obviously don't know what goes on in the WP7 Marketplace. Microsoft has an API in Windows Phone so users are notified to try that app before they buy it. Even then, developers have free apps out in the marketplace, just like there are freeware programs for whatever in Windows.

    And I don't know if some understand, A PRODUCT CANNOT STAGNATE IN TERMS OF DESIGN. Have you looked at mac os? It literally looks that same as it did 10 years ago but with higher resolution. You know who buy macs? apple fanboys that are brainwashed into thinking apple products are the poo of God. Have you looked at the iphone? It literally looks that same as it did in 2006. Have you seen the dominance of mac? No, you don't. The average consumer isn't going to buy a 1,200 dollar product if they know it will literally look that way in 10 years, with very little change. Have you looked at Windows? It looks as much as it did in 95 but with higher resolution, better navigation, better stability, and transparent windows. That's what it is when you boil it down. A company WILL lose consumer interest in a product that will see no tangible changes. So yes, Windows 8 is a ploy for cash when it's put that way.
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  9. #69


    Posts : 5,707
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    Quote Originally Posted by ADRz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Coke Robot View Post
    Yes, for crying out loud, some people are judging a Windows operating system based solely off an undeveloped, developer preview build. It's not even done yet! Microsoft got the Start Screen pushed out for the DP so developers can get used to it. There's obviously much more to come. Microsoft showed off features that aren't in the DP during the BUILD conference a few months ago. We haven't used those features yet.

    I mean, the concept of being able to see ALL of your installed programs and apps visually is great. I've installed Windows 7 multiple times and have configured Windows 7 installations and have always put every relevant program in the All Programs list of the start menu. That's sometimes in vain since I've had people tell me they've never used the start menu. Man, oh man, Microsoft wasn't kidding when they said people don't use it anymore! I've seen start menus that are a wild beast of folders and nothing is configured or moved around. The AVERAGE user doesn't do those sorts of things. They don't delete superfluous folders or move things around or change the size of the start menu so more is viewable. Simply saying the Start Screen is going to make Windows 8 a flop is one opinion out of millions. The average user might actually know what is installed on their hard drives now. Saying metro design is repugnant is one opinion out of millions that have already used products with metro design and love it for it's simplicity and visual appealing aspects. Just because there's a portion of Windows users that are power users that don't like metro doesn't mean that average user is going to dislike it for it "lack of customization." What's the need to customize the Start Screen? There's going to be color options, grouping options, pinning options, and potentially DPI options. But there's not going to be widgets that people really don't use. There will be apps for that that replace those widgets with something better.

    Speaking of such, I don't ever see average users use desktop gadgets ever. Every install I do, I always install a system monitor gadget, put on the slideshow, weather, and an antiviruses' gadget. After some time and I do work on a particular installation, I always see most of them gone. Usually the weather gadget is left on there. That's probably why Microsoft isn't supporting the Live Gallery anymore.

    Gee willakers you guys!
    Let me take a specific opinion that you have raised here:

    "I mean, the concept of being able to see ALL of your installed programs and apps visually is great."


    You are surely kidding. You cannot do this with the desktop and the taskbar? What would have been the difficulty in attaching "app" icons on the desktop? The same as coding for this "Start Screen", most likely.

    You are saying:

    "Just because there's a portion of Windows users that are power users that don't like metro doesn't mean that average user is going to dislike it for it "lack of customization." What's the need to customize the Start Screen?"

    Why does this "Start Screen" exist at all? It could have been a simple task enabled from the desktop, couldn't it? If one wanted to see their "Metro-style" apps, one could have clicked on an appropriate icon on the desktop to see them. Or they could have been pinned on the desktop. Microsoft simply does not want you to go to the desktop. Period. MS wants users to be conditioned to see the "Start Screen". It is only by leveraging its dominance in the desktop that it can hope to have users buy their tablets and phones. My feeling is that this strategy would not work and it would backfire.

    MS is busy demolishing the desktop. You may not have noticed, but MS has already eradicated most of the desktop gadgets. Why have a desktop gadget that shows you the weather when you can have a weather app on the Start Screen for which MS would collect revenue from? Why are you falling for this transparent ploy?

    The only reasons for the Start Screen is (a) Condition Users and (b) extract revenue from apps. I can understand why developers of apps may be interested in mining the desktop (I would have to, had I been a developer), but why would I be interested?
    Hate to break it to you, some people don't realize that. Some people don't even care or use that function. Some people stay reverted to classic taskbar management with nothing pinned. Some people pin, some don't. From what I've seen, a lot don't. And even if they could, some don't have high resolution screens to allow massive amounts of pinning.

    Desktop gadgets are gone. That's a fact. That in itself doesn't say Desktop is gone. Why have a weather app when I could just get weather gadget. Oh wait, I first have to go buy a copy of Windows 7, install it, activate it, and then place the built in weather gadget somewhere on my desktop. It's the same bloody argument. An app, or a gadget. Either way, they're both built in, and they're both getting revenue for Microsoft.

    The reasons for the Start Screen is (a) remodel a 16 year old design of a product that definitely might see a loss of consumer interest due to touch devices (b) create a new platform for their developers to build upon that is consistent and can make the developers profit. Last I checked, a 70 percent cut from an app is much larger than a 30 percent cut. And last I checked, Microsoft will have a lower developer fee than apple.
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  10. #70


    Posts : 5,707
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    Quote Originally Posted by Vertex View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Coke Robot;
    Man, oh man, Microsoft wasn't kidding when they said people don't use it anymore! I've seen start menus that are a wild beast of folders and nothing is configured or moved around. The AVERAGE user doesn't do those sorts of things. They don't delete superfluous folders or move things around or change the size of the start menu so more is viewable.
    The average users don't do those things? I disagree. Surely, there are average users out there that have learned to tidy up the Start Menu and have learned to use it effectively like the ever useful search bar. Compare that to the Metro tiles, even uninstallers get pinned there as tile by default and are you sure that all "average" users out there would unpin and tidy those up? Plus the Start Menu takes much less space to display your apps than the Metro that takes the whole screen, interefering with your Desktop. I am not entirely against the Metro, I just don't want it merged with the Start Menu.

    Speaking of such, I don't ever see average users use desktop gadgets ever. Every install I do, I always install a system monitor gadget, put on the slideshow, weather, and an antiviruses' gadget. After some time and I do work on a particular installation, I always see most of them gone. Usually the weather gadget is left on there. That's probably why Microsoft isn't supporting the Live Gallery anymore.
    I have seen average users use the Desktop gadgets. I have seen them use the calendar, the clock and the picture slideshow. I myself use the clock, Black Calendar and the All CPU Meter which I believe is one of the most downloaded and used gadgets out there. Some users use an app called Rainmeter and its little gadgets as a replacement for the desktop gadgets and it makes the desktop very cool looking. Gadgets are still avialable on third party sites and highest rated ones are still displayed on the Windows Personalization Gallery so its not true that they are not being used at all.
    I have included a screenshot of my desktop. As you can see, I put the shortcuts of many of my installed programs and games on a folder on the desktop and that makes it neat.


    Attachment 2971
    There are average users that know how to pin, but really, it's something that I've seen so underutilized, it's disgusting. There may be average users that tidy up their start menus, but I've yet to see one myself. The only aspect I've seen tidy is the recent programs list. The menu itself is abysmal.

    But I do have to say, your screenshot looks like something that can be easily be pinned into the Start Screen. They're programs that you don't choose to have all over your desktop, and are one click away from being accessed. Hmm, sounds like what the Start Screen is all about...
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Windows 8 will be 'largely irrelevant' to traditional PC users: IDC
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