Windows 8 and 8.1 Forums


Windows 8 will be 'largely irrelevant' to traditional PC users: IDC

  1. #51


    Posts : 5,707
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    Yes, for crying out loud, some people are judging a Windows operating system based solely off an undeveloped, developer preview build. It's not even done yet! Microsoft got the Start Screen pushed out for the DP so developers can get used to it. There's obviously much more to come. Microsoft showed off features that aren't in the DP during the BUILD conference a few months ago. We haven't used those features yet.

    I mean, the concept of being able to see ALL of your installed programs and apps visually is great. I've installed Windows 7 multiple times and have configured Windows 7 installations and have always put every relevant program in the All Programs list of the start menu. That's sometimes in vain since I've had people tell me they've never used the start menu. Man, oh man, Microsoft wasn't kidding when they said people don't use it anymore! I've seen start menus that are a wild beast of folders and nothing is configured or moved around. The AVERAGE user doesn't do those sorts of things. They don't delete superfluous folders or move things around or change the size of the start menu so more is viewable. Simply saying the Start Screen is going to make Windows 8 a flop is one opinion out of millions. The average user might actually know what is installed on their hard drives now. Saying metro design is repugnant is one opinion out of millions that have already used products with metro design and love it for it's simplicity and visual appealing aspects. Just because there's a portion of Windows users that are power users that don't like metro doesn't mean that average user is going to dislike it for it "lack of customization." What's the need to customize the Start Screen? There's going to be color options, grouping options, pinning options, and potentially DPI options. But there's not going to be widgets that people really don't use. There will be apps for that that replace those widgets with something better.

    Speaking of such, I don't ever see average users use desktop gadgets ever. Every install I do, I always install a system monitor gadget, put on the slideshow, weather, and an antiviruses' gadget. After some time and I do work on a particular installation, I always see most of them gone. Usually the weather gadget is left on there. That's probably why Microsoft isn't supporting the Live Gallery anymore.

    Gee willakers you guys!

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  2. #52


    Posts : 162
    windows 7


    Quote Originally Posted by Coke Robot View Post
    Yes, for crying out loud, some people are judging a Windows operating system based solely off an undeveloped, developer preview build. It's not even done yet! Microsoft got the Start Screen pushed out for the DP so developers can get used to it. There's obviously much more to come. Microsoft showed off features that aren't in the DP during the BUILD conference a few months ago. We haven't used those features yet.

    I mean, the concept of being able to see ALL of your installed programs and apps visually is great. I've installed Windows 7 multiple times and have configured Windows 7 installations and have always put every relevant program in the All Programs list of the start menu. That's sometimes in vain since I've had people tell me they've never used the start menu. Man, oh man, Microsoft wasn't kidding when they said people don't use it anymore! I've seen start menus that are a wild beast of folders and nothing is configured or moved around. The AVERAGE user doesn't do those sorts of things. They don't delete superfluous folders or move things around or change the size of the start menu so more is viewable. Simply saying the Start Screen is going to make Windows 8 a flop is one opinion out of millions. The average user might actually know what is installed on their hard drives now. Saying metro design is repugnant is one opinion out of millions that have already used products with metro design and love it for it's simplicity and visual appealing aspects. Just because there's a portion of Windows users that are power users that don't like metro doesn't mean that average user is going to dislike it for it "lack of customization." What's the need to customize the Start Screen? There's going to be color options, grouping options, pinning options, and potentially DPI options. But there's not going to be widgets that people really don't use. There will be apps for that that replace those widgets with something better.

    Speaking of such, I don't ever see average users use desktop gadgets ever. Every install I do, I always install a system monitor gadget, put on the slideshow, weather, and an antiviruses' gadget. After some time and I do work on a particular installation, I always see most of them gone. Usually the weather gadget is left on there. That's probably why Microsoft isn't supporting the Live Gallery anymore.

    Gee willakers you guys!
    Let me take a specific opinion that you have raised here:

    "I mean, the concept of being able to see ALL of your installed programs and apps visually is great."


    You are surely kidding. You cannot do this with the desktop and the taskbar? What would have been the difficulty in attaching "app" icons on the desktop? The same as coding for this "Start Screen", most likely.

    You are saying:

    "Just because there's a portion of Windows users that are power users that don't like metro doesn't mean that average user is going to dislike it for it "lack of customization." What's the need to customize the Start Screen?"

    Why does this "Start Screen" exist at all? It could have been a simple task enabled from the desktop, couldn't it? If one wanted to see their "Metro-style" apps, one could have clicked on an appropriate icon on the desktop to see them. Or they could have been pinned on the desktop. Microsoft simply does not want you to go to the desktop. Period. MS wants users to be conditioned to see the "Start Screen". It is only by leveraging its dominance in the desktop that it can hope to have users buy their tablets and phones. My feeling is that this strategy would not work and it would backfire.

    MS is busy demolishing the desktop. You may not have noticed, but MS has already eradicated most of the desktop gadgets. Why have a desktop gadget that shows you the weather when you can have a weather app on the Start Screen for which MS would collect revenue from? Why are you falling for this transparent ploy?

    The only reasons for the Start Screen is (a) Condition Users and (b) extract revenue from apps. I can understand why developers of apps may be interested in mining the desktop (I would have to, had I been a developer), but why would I be interested?
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  3. #53


    Windows 8 will become standard software to most CellPhones, Notebooks, Tablets and Pc's.
    The OS, UI will be transferable between all units hardwire, wireless or Bluetooth and About the MeTro part of it
    in the Pc world, Well you have the option of not using it and just run the desktop form.
    Me myself and I canít wait for the infinite ways that W8 will have to offer to its users.

    m2c.

    Ps Imaging the day you can have your own Mobil OS
    it will be so cool that all you do is stick a usb to any hardware
    and run your world like itís your HoMe.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  4. #54


    Posts : 9
    xp, vista, 7, 8dp, ubuntu, osx


    Why does this "Start Screen" exist at all? It could have been a simple task enabled from the desktop, couldn't it? If one wanted to see their "Metro-style" apps, one could have clicked on an appropriate icon on the desktop to see them. Or they could have been pinned on the desktop. Microsoft simply does not want you to go to the desktop. Period. MS wants users to be conditioned to see the "Start Screen". It is only by leveraging its dominance in the desktop that it can hope to have users buy their tablets and phones. My feeling is that this strategy would not work and it would backfire.

    Amen!

    And now is the time to complain bout the direction W8 is taking, not when its friggin finished!
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  5. #55


    Posts : 288
    Windows 7 Ultimate, Windows Developer Preview, Linux Mint 9


    Quote Originally Posted by Coke Robot;
    Man, oh man, Microsoft wasn't kidding when they said people don't use it anymore! I've seen start menus that are a wild beast of folders and nothing is configured or moved around. The AVERAGE user doesn't do those sorts of things. They don't delete superfluous folders or move things around or change the size of the start menu so more is viewable.
    The average users don't do those things? I disagree. Surely, there are average users out there that have learned to tidy up the Start Menu and have learned to use it effectively like the ever useful search bar. Compare that to the Metro tiles, even uninstallers get pinned there as tile by default and are you sure that all "average" users out there would unpin and tidy those up? Plus the Start Menu takes much less space to display your apps than the Metro that takes the whole screen, interefering with your Desktop. I am not entirely against the Metro, I just don't want it merged with the Start Menu.

    Speaking of such, I don't ever see average users use desktop gadgets ever. Every install I do, I always install a system monitor gadget, put on the slideshow, weather, and an antiviruses' gadget. After some time and I do work on a particular installation, I always see most of them gone. Usually the weather gadget is left on there. That's probably why Microsoft isn't supporting the Live Gallery anymore.
    I have seen average users use the Desktop gadgets. I have seen them use the calendar, the clock and the picture slideshow. I myself use the clock, Black Calendar and the All CPU Meter which I believe is one of the most downloaded and used gadgets out there. Some users use an app called Rainmeter and its little gadgets as a replacement for the desktop gadgets and it makes the desktop very cool looking. Gadgets are still avialable on third party sites and highest rated ones are still displayed on the Windows Personalization Gallery so its not true that they are not being used at all.
    I have included a screenshot of my desktop. As you can see, I put the shortcuts of many of my installed programs and games on a folder on the desktop and that makes it neat.


    Click image for larger version
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  6. #56


    Posts : 162
    windows 7


    Quote Originally Posted by Vertex View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Coke Robot;
    Man, oh man, Microsoft wasn't kidding when they said people don't use it anymore! I've seen start menus that are a wild beast of folders and nothing is configured or moved around. The AVERAGE user doesn't do those sorts of things. They don't delete superfluous folders or move things around or change the size of the start menu so more is viewable.
    The average users don't do those things? I disagree. Surely, there are average users out there that have learned to tidy up the Start Menu and have learned to use it effectively like the ever useful search bar. Compare that to the Metro tiles, even uninstallers get pinned there as tile by default and are you sure that all "average" users out there would unpin and tidy those up? Plus the Start Menu takes much less space to display your apps than the Metro that takes the whole screen, interefering with your Desktop. I am not entirely against the Metro, I just don't want it merged with the Start Menu.

    Speaking of such, I don't ever see average users use desktop gadgets ever. Every install I do, I always install a system monitor gadget, put on the slideshow, weather, and an antiviruses' gadget. After some time and I do work on a particular installation, I always see most of them gone. Usually the weather gadget is left on there. That's probably why Microsoft isn't supporting the Live Gallery anymore.
    I have seen average users use the Desktop gadgets. I have seen them use the calendar, the clock and the picture slideshow. I myself use the clock, Black Calendar and the All CPU Meter which I believe is one of the most downloaded and used gadgets out there. Some users use an app called Rainmeter and its little gadgets as a replacement for the desktop gadgets and it makes the desktop very cool looking. Gadgets are still avialable on third party sites and highest rated ones are still displayed on the Windows Personalization Gallery so its not true that they are not being used at all.
    I have included a screenshot of my desktop. As you can see, I put the shortcuts of many of my installed programs and games on a folder on the desktop and that makes it neat.


    Click image for larger version
    Thank you. We are in full agreement. Unfortunately, two things work against those who would have MS further develop the desktop instead of playing with the "brain-damaged" Start Screen:

    (a) Microsoft's almost monomania to enter the "mobile" computing environment (smartphones and tablets). With the Apple and Google/Amazon dominance of this space, MS has decided that the only way to muscle its way in is to leverage its dominance in the desktop. MS mavens have decided that if they condition users to look at a Metro-style screen all day, then they are far more likely to go out and buy MS tablets and smartphones. It is as simple as that. MS is about to conduct the largest Pavlovian experiment ever. Let's see if it works.

    (b) The veritable hunger of the developers to sell "Metro-style" apps to the millions of desktop users. Previously, one got free desktop gadgets. Now, you would have to pony up $1.99 or something similar for a "Metro-style" app for the weather. MS is pushing this strongly. It has already killed most of the freebie weather gadgets of the desktop. Thus, MS expects to make lots of money from the Start Screen. Lots of money. Thus, it would never make Start Screen optional or easy to remove. This would hurt MS where it cares most: the wallet. Thus, developers, who are in these forums, are eager for the Start Screen and would defend it to their graves because it is a money maker. Clueless users stuck with the Start Screen, would spend money buying these "immersive full screen apps" to check the weather or whatever else these limited apps can do.

    There you have it. The "Start Screen" is a direct consequence of Microsoft have been shut out of mobile computing. Microsoft knows that both you and I are correct and that the Start Screen is nothing but an impediment. But they have run out of ideas of how to enter mobile computing and this is their Hail Mary Pass. If this fails, it would not only remove MS from mobile computing, but MS would collapse in the desktop as well, trying very hard to bring out a Win9 to make up for the loss.

    Thus, users who want to maintain a good desktop experience must now look elsewhere. Apple, for example, does not need the Mac OS to push its mobile platform, so one may see a much better evolution this OS going forward than one would see with Windows. It may be painful for many users to make the switch, but it may be inevitable. Windows is been shuttered in the pursuit of certain corporate goals including the survival of Steve Balmer. If Balmer's ploy fails and Win8 does not make it big, then he would be out almost immediately. Expect the return of Bill Gates at the time as the second coming of Jesus for Microsoft.
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  7. #57


    Posts : 288
    Windows 7 Ultimate, Windows Developer Preview, Linux Mint 9


    I'm sure that some employees of Microsoft are watching this forum. So they know our reactions.

    If the current standing of the WDP would remain till the Beta, I think more people that are already haters of the Metro would further be upset and lose enthusiasm with Windows 8. To some people, they are going backwards with this thing. Going retro with Metro that is.

    However, let us see what a "non-Metro" Windows 8 will perform. I am not yet giving it all a thumbs downs since the "non-Metro" Windows 8 does have advantages over Windows 7. We will know more in weeks to come.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  8. #58


    Posts : 162
    windows 7


    Quote Originally Posted by Vertex View Post
    I'm sure that some employees of Microsoft are watching this forum. So they know our reactions.

    If the current standing of the WDP would remain till the Beta, I think more people that are already haters of the Metro would further be upset and lose enthusiasm with Windows 8. To some people, they are going backwards with this thing. Going retro with Metro that is.

    However, let us see what a "non-Metro" Windows 8 will perform. I am not yet giving it all a thumbs downs since the "non-Metro" Windows 8 does have advantages over Windows 7. We will know more in weeks to come.

    If there are Microsoft employees here, they would be busy boosting Win8. Their paychecks depend on it. And they would not dare open their mouths in any meetings. They would not want to be labelled as "not team players". You underestimate the power of groupthink.

    As I said in another thread, Microsoft may decide to make the Metro interface optional for the "Enterprise" or "Professional" version of Win8 where it may ask anywhere between $199 to $349 for a license. This again hinges on how they see the enterprise sales going. The decision to have the Metro-style "Start Screen" on without the capability of switching it off seems to have been "hard-coded" because of the announcements of the Microsoft App store. Microsoft is not going to start an app store for an interface that it intends to make optional and which most users would not choose to enable. In fact, during the App Store announcements, MS discussed about the possibility of allowing enterprises to distribute "company apps" by specific workarounds (they would not be visible to the public). So, I do not expect any changes in the beta. If you do, you are an optimist.

    Microsoft may have a plan B. If there is resistance to Win8, it may come out with Win7 "Second Edition" where it may put in some of the Win8 improvements (minor as they are) and sell a few more licenses this way. Or it would simply continue selling Win7 licenses as it happened with WinXP. Distributors would allow users to select either Win8 or Win7 (and the money goes to MS anyway). From the purely commercial point of view, Microsoft is covered either way.

    Where Microsoft may really get hurt is perception among power users. It would not notice at first. This would take some time to bite. When many, including me, abandon Windows for something else, this decision would only be noticed if through our efforts more and more average users start abandoning Windows. At some point, this may get to be a real threat. For example, the Vista debacle cost Microsoft somewhere between 3-5% of global market share. It still has a very high marketshare (just above 90%), but this loss had an effect. The failure of the Metro "Start Screen" may open the way for Apple in the enterprise. Who knows, it is difficult to tell.

    In summary, Microsoft believes that the upside of new Start Screen is good and the downside (some grumbling power users) not that negative. So, do not expect any changes. I would be surprised if there are any.
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  9. #59


    Posts : 288
    Windows 7 Ultimate, Windows Developer Preview, Linux Mint 9


    Nice thoughts of you, ADRz. M$ would not put up an App Store if Metro can be optional or can be disabled that many users would.

    But now that there are more and more people quitting WDP and going back to Windows 7, waiting for the beta and many of us emerging as critics of the Metro, of course its easy for Microsoft to see that coming and of course they have to respond. One guy on this forum said something that he knew some Microsoft employees and they said they are watching this forum. This may be a reason for them to shift tactics on future releases. Yes, I'm an optimist but hopefully, they will see they had a huge mistake in the long run.
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  10. #60


    Posts : 162
    windows 7


    Quote Originally Posted by Vertex View Post
    Nice thoughts of you, ADRz. M$ would not put up an App Store if Metro can be optional or can be disabled that many users would.

    But now that there are more and more people quitting WDP and going back to Windows 7, waiting for the beta and many of us emerging as critics of the Metro, of course its easy for Microsoft to see that coming and of course they have to respond. One guy on this forum said something that he knew some Microsoft employees and they said they are watching this forum. This may be a reason for them to shift tactics on future releases. Yes, I'm an optimist but hopefully, they will see they had a huge mistake in the long run.
    Good for you, being an optimist. I am not. Working in corporations I have found that a strategy, however misguided, gets to stick as long as those pushing it are at the helm. It would be nice to think of corporations as self-correcting entities but they are not. What would take to change directions at Microsoft is the departure of Steve Balmer and the leadership that he has installed over the Windows division.
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Windows 8 will be 'largely irrelevant' to traditional PC users: IDC
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