Windows 8 and 8.1 Forums


Windows 8 will be 'largely irrelevant' to traditional PC users: IDC

  1. #41


    Yucaipa, California, USA
    Posts : 130
    Windows 8.1 Pro w/ WMC x64


    [QUOTE=ADRz;49537][QUOTE=ionbasa;49528]
    Quote Originally Posted by ADRz View Post

    Who is actually using the Start Menu to launch a program with so many other choices on the desktop. The problem with the Start Screen is that it interferes with access to the desktop as you well know. MS wants to replace your desktop with the Start screen. They want you to be looking at the Start Screen so that you would be familiarized with it and then go out and buy their tablets. They expect this Pavlovian response.

    Now, honestly, do you really see the screen you have just displayed as appropriate for large monitors???? This is kiddy stuff!!!
    I personally do use the start menu, I remember the huge transition that happened between MS DOS, Windows 3.1, and then to Windows 95. The desktop was really first implemented in Windows 95, before that the first GUI implementation in Windows 3.1 looked like this:
    Click image for larger version
    Which in my opinion is even better than Windows current implementation of having the listed folder layout of the start menu in Windows 7. Also I and many other people use the start menu to launch programs, I only leave shortcuts for thing I find absolutly necessarily on my desktop, as I prefer a minimalism clutter and clean look.

    Also you say the MS is trying to kill the desktop, they never officially stated "Hey guys we want to kill the desktop!", what they did say was that they want a uniform platform experience, which I believe to be a huge plus and a step in the right direction.

    Also you were asking about how the metro ui would be appropriate for large monitors, and to this I have a answer. The Metro UI can be adjusted based on screen resolution, effectively re-sizing and scaling the live tiles based on monitor resolution, dots per inch, and the pixels per inch.

    You also have to remember that the current release of Windows 8 is a Developers Preview, and only meant to be that, a preview, I am certain without a doubt that things will change between now and the Beta.

    Also I want to point out that me liking the Metro UI is merely my opinion and preference, and you have your own opinion and preferences, which I respect, but please don't freak out by typing with insult:
    Now, honestly, do you really see the screen you have just displayed as appropriate for large monitors???? This is kiddy stuff!!!
    Accepting change? Why? For change's sake??? If they ask you to walk around naked would you do it?
    I amazed that you like it.
    If you did not mean to be rude, I am sorry for misunderstanding, They teach us to many things in Psychology and AP Language

      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  2. #42


    Posts : 162
    windows 7


    [QUOTE=ionbasa;49555][QUOTE=ADRz;49537]
    Quote Originally Posted by ionbasa View Post
    I personally do use the start menu, I remember the huge transition that happened between MS DOS, Windows 3.1, and then to Windows 95. The desktop was really first implemented in Windows 95, before that the first GUI implementation in Windows 3.1 looked like this:
    Click image for larger version
    Which in my opinion is even better than Windows current implementation of having the listed folder layout of the start menu in Windows 7. Also I and many other people use the start menu to launch programs, I only leave shortcuts for thing I find absolutly necessarily on my desktop, as I prefer a minimalism clutter and clean look.

    Also you say the MS is trying to kill the desktop, they never officially stated "Hey guys we want to kill the desktop!", what they did say was that they want a uniform platform experience, which I believe to be a huge plus and a step in the right direction.

    Also you were asking about how the metro ui would be appropriate for large monitors, and to this I have a answer. The Metro UI can be adjusted based on screen resolution, effectively re-sizing and scaling the live tiles based on monitor resolution, dots per inch, and the pixels per inch.

    You also have to remember that the current release of Windows 8 is a Developers Preview, and only meant to be that, a preview, I am certain without a doubt that things will change between now and the Beta.

    Also I want to point out that me liking the Metro UI is merely my opinion and preference, and you have your own opinion and preferences, which I respect, but please don't freak out by typing with insult:



    If you did not mean to be rude, I am sorry for misunderstanding, They teach us to many things in Psychology and AP Language
    First of all, I did not mean to be rude. However, I repeatedly indicated that I am not resistant to change. In fact, I am very much a "techie" guy. But the "accusation" of being "resistant to change" is leveled against every opponent of the Start menu as if it makes any sense. It does not. One should not be the opponent of progress but not all change should be regarded as progress. I hope that we understand each other on this.

    Now, neither most power users or even mildly experienced users use the Start menu. Most either attach icons of their commonly used programs in the desktop or on the taskbar. One would only have to go to the start menu for obscure items. Then you are forgetting the instant search in the Start button that can bring up virtually every document. However, I hardly even use this. I place documents or programs that I work often in a Library and simply attach a Library icon to the desktop. Voila!!! The silly Metro-style Start screen is an impediment to getting work done, not a help.

    I really could not believe your comments about large monitors. Of course things would scale up. But what may look cute on a phone, may look just passable in a tablet and really horrible on a large display. Do you want to see this Lego-style monochrome tasteless Start Menu when your computer boots up??? I think not. I hope that you have better taste than that. It is a throw-back to the days of early computing. In fact, Lenovo offers something very similar for its Thinkpad line of laptops and nobody hardly ever uses it. If you buy a Thinkpad, you would see an invitation to use this shell that looks very much like the Start Screen. I will be darned if there is a single Thinkpad owner that has installed it.

    I had to chuckle on the "consistent" experience. MS is assuming that I would have a WP phone and a Windows tablet. It would not happen. WP7 is way behind the curve compared to iOS and Android and the gap is not closing. In addition, Win8 tablets may sell horribly (which would be likely the case). MS should worry about a consistent interface only if there is such level of penetration. Now, it is quite apparent that MS is using its monopoly on the desktop to push this interface on many users. This explains the stupid monomania with this Start Screen. The legitimate approach would be to let users enable or disable it. But MS does not want to do this because it knows that virtually all users will disable it!!!!

    So, if you have strong confidence that most users would "love" the Start Screen, you should petition MS to make it optional. Let's see how many users would install it. My guess: Less than 5%. As you have seen in an another thread here, the overwhelming number of those who downloaded the Dev Preview, have abandoned it, very much like me.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  3. #43


    Posts : 5,707
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Travis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Coke Robot View Post
    I don't see how Microsoft is killing the Desktop user. I mean, if you don't care for full screen apps, just don't use them.
    True, but if you're using 7 what's the point of buying 8? Getting rid of Metro makes it only marginally different to the typical user.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coke Robot View Post
    I dislike android because I believe it's simply a jailbroken iphone with the droid being the quintessential android and other phones being like the descendants of Cain; disunified and hideous and unstable. I can't stand to use androids because there are three different versions out there with different navigations, different skins, and just flat out confusing.
    I've owned an Android phone for almost two years and don't know what on earth you're talking about. Haven't heard anyone use the word skins in about 10 years. Different navigations? I've used two major versions of Android and the differences were cosmetic and performance, never noticed a change in the way I navigate through stuff. If you get confused using any smart phone you shouldn't even have one - iPhone, Android, Windows, it doesn't matter. They're some of the most dumb-downed electronics out there. They all do pretty much the same thing now, although it's still easier to customize an Android phone and you have more hardware and carrier choices.
    I think android is quite ridiculous. I was helping a friend free up space on her phone to install Netflix on it, and there was a notification saying there wasn't enough space to do so. I literally took me five minutes to realize that I had to go Notifications, click on that space notification, and THEN I got a list of installed apps to uninstall. I assumed from my experience with iphone and WP7 that it would be a fairly simple set up, go to settings, apps, and uninstall. But no.

    android is a fragmented market. Today, I went to target and I was looking at the phones and there are versions, 2.1, 2.2, 2.3 and 4 being sold. If that was Windows, it would be xp, vista, vista SP2, and 7. No one does that, no one should. I think if a company is to make an operating system for phones, just keep it a consistent operating system. I don't understand how something that runs an ARM processor is running an operating system that needs more power. I don't get it. They're phones, not laptops, not tablets.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  4. #44


    Posts : 5,707
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    Quote Originally Posted by ionbasa View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ADRz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Coke Robot View Post
    Attachment 2959Attachment 2960This is what my Start Screen looks like. I have it as customizable as far as the build will allow. I don't see the Start Screen as obliterating the Desktop. I see it more as an extension of such. It has all my program icons, with their names, in grids. What can you find looks like that? A typical Windows desktop. And I use some metro apps that go full screen. What Windows programs do that? Games, video players, music players. Unlike those, some display relevant information.
    Do you honestly think that this is in any way visually appealing or helpful????? I am lost in a group of grey squares with no visual appeal whatsoever. Compared to the desktop, it looks drab. In addition, there is no way to include all the elements that I want in this screen. It is not usable and it is not attractive. But this is what happens when you design an operating system to be efficient in small screens (4 to 11''). This is by definition counterproductive for the desktop.

    I amazed that you like it. Compared with the visual appeal of the desktop with icons, taskbar and gadgets, you have a blown-up phone interface that lacks depth and any kind of finesse or design appeal. Microsoft will find all this to its horror.
    I find it visually appealing, its just a matter of preference and accepting change. I find the new start menu better than the ones in the older windows versions, I just don't like looking at a linear list of folders in a small space trying to find the program I need.
    I second this with an utmost passion.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  5. #45


    Posts : 5,707
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    [QUOTE=ionbasa;49555][QUOTE=ADRz;49537]
    Quote Originally Posted by ionbasa View Post
    I personally do use the start menu, I remember the huge transition that happened between MS DOS, Windows 3.1, and then to Windows 95. The desktop was really first implemented in Windows 95, before that the first GUI implementation in Windows 3.1 looked like this:
    Click image for larger version
    Which in my opinion is even better than Windows current implementation of having the listed folder layout of the start menu in Windows 7. Also I and many other people use the start menu to launch programs, I only leave shortcuts for thing I find absolutly necessarily on my desktop, as I prefer a minimalism clutter and clean look.

    Also you say the MS is trying to kill the desktop, they never officially stated "Hey guys we want to kill the desktop!", what they did say was that they want a uniform platform experience, which I believe to be a huge plus and a step in the right direction.

    Also you were asking about how the metro ui would be appropriate for large monitors, and to this I have a answer. The Metro UI can be adjusted based on screen resolution, effectively re-sizing and scaling the live tiles based on monitor resolution, dots per inch, and the pixels per inch.

    You also have to remember that the current release of Windows 8 is a Developers Preview, and only meant to be that, a preview, I am certain without a doubt that things will change between now and the Beta.

    Also I want to point out that me liking the Metro UI is merely my opinion and preference, and you have your own opinion and preferences, which I respect, but please don't freak out by typing with insult:



    If you did not mean to be rude, I am sorry for misunderstanding, They teach us to many things in Psychology and AP Language

    I agree, this is simply a Developer's Preview build. This is a change in the release schedule of Microsoft for Windows. Traditionally, a DP of Windows never has any visuals implemented. The DP of 7 I believe was literally like vista, but with more stable code. Microsoft coded the Start Screen for the DP build so developers can get used to it. They've even said that the DP build is limited and there is SO MUCH MORE than just that. There will be Groups to organize programs, color customizations, maybe even themes, probably DPI changes. It's like a touch version of the Desktop. You can have dozens of icons on your desktop and change the DPI to make them smaller.

    And yes, hostility is a good calling card of resistance to change..
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  6. #46


    Posts : 5,707
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    [QUOTE=ADRz;49558][QUOTE=ionbasa;49555]
    Quote Originally Posted by ADRz View Post

    First of all, I did not mean to be rude. However, I repeatedly indicated that I am not resistant to change. In fact, I am very much a "techie" guy. But the "accusation" of being "resistant to change" is leveled against every opponent of the Start menu as if it makes any sense. It does not. One should not be the opponent of progress but not all change should be regarded as progress. I hope that we understand each other on this.

    Now, neither most power users or even mildly experienced users use the Start menu. Most either attach icons of their commonly used programs in the desktop or on the taskbar. One would only have to go to the start menu for obscure items. Then you are forgetting the instant search in the Start button that can bring up virtually every document. However, I hardly even use this. I place documents or programs that I work often in a Library and simply attach a Library icon to the desktop. Voila!!! The silly Metro-style Start screen is an impediment to getting work done, not a help.

    I really could not believe your comments about large monitors. Of course things would scale up. But what may look cute on a phone, may look just passable in a tablet and really horrible on a large display. Do you want to see this Lego-style monochrome tasteless Start Menu when your computer boots up??? I think not. I hope that you have better taste than that. It is a throw-back to the days of early computing. In fact, Lenovo offers something very similar for its Thinkpad line of laptops and nobody hardly ever uses it. If you buy a Thinkpad, you would see an invitation to use this shell that looks very much like the Start Screen. I will be darned if there is a single Thinkpad owner that has installed it.

    I had to chuckle on the "consistent" experience. MS is assuming that I would have a WP phone and a Windows tablet. It would not happen. WP7 is way behind the curve compared to iOS and Android and the gap is not closing. In addition, Win8 tablets may sell horribly (which would be likely the case). MS should worry about a consistent interface only if there is such level of penetration. Now, it is quite apparent that MS is using its monopoly on the desktop to push this interface on many users. This explains the stupid monomania with this Start Screen. The legitimate approach would be to let users enable or disable it. But MS does not want to do this because it knows that virtually all users will disable it!!!!

    So, if you have strong confidence that most users would "love" the Start Screen, you should petition MS to make it optional. Let's see how many users would install it. My guess: Less than 5%. As you have seen in an another thread here, the overwhelming number of those who downloaded the Dev Preview, have abandoned it, very much like me.
    I understand that not everyone is resistant to change. But just flat out rejecting it isn't the best way to go with this. You can search like one has been able to since vista. It takes a start key and a typed phrase. For the start menu, that was the point of getting rid of it. No one really uses it other than to access Libraries, Computer, or Control Panel. All the commonly used programs get pinned neatly, while it is usually a mess of folders. Speaking of such, I don't understand how the iphone, maybe android has grouping functions to reduce the amount of screens of apps.

    Anyways, when you look at some concepts of Windows, like Whistler (xp), or even 2000, they've had a vision of modern design. I recently saw a screenshot of a build of 2000's login screen, it honestly is reminiscent of 8's user screen. In Whistler's bootup screen, it was a monolithic grey Windows flag with a four bar loading bar of red, green, blue, and yellow that seems metro like. They've had pretty impressive concepts, like Longhorn, but what usually has stopped them is either a) underproducing or b) user resistance. The selling point of Windows is that there is familiarity. But people have gone to android and ipad tablets and that has somewhat flourished. The main selling point of Windows is being attacked. People have been able to adapt to new interfaces that are much different from what they've used.

    Microsoft had to change their flagship product to adapt to these times. I don't want to see a world of android, apple, and chrome os. Just no. This is a step in the right direction. Many market analyzers have been wanting Microsoft to release a Windows version to these times. A 16 year old model simply doesn't work on devices that people are going to, tablets. There has been Windows Slates, but no one wants to use them, because it isn't designed for such.

    I wouldn't doubt the WP7. In reality, the happy android user is using a Samsung or Motorola Droid phone, not an lg phone running gingerbread. Even Verizon wireless deems those phones as "basic" phones. Those users from my experience would love something better, and when I show them a Windows Phone 7, they're awed by it's actual features and simplicity. I know, it's dumbing things down, but the average user isn't the brightest tech person, hence, that's why best buy is still around.

    Even then, you cannot convince the average middle class person that has Windows 7 to upgrade to Windows 8 if there isn't anything beneficial other than faster startup and shutdown. You just can't. I've seen people take a year to decide to upgrade from vista to 7 because if they think it works (which it doesn't, a two minute startup with a couple minutes to wait for 3rd party programs to start isn't fast), they won't upgrade. It generally will take a review from a friend or family member that recommends it. When I show off Windows 8 to people, they're intrigued by it. They find it fascinating. They think it's cool and worthy to upgrade. I find pleasure seeing peoples' faces when I launched every app and program install on a laptop and switch to another user account in a couple seconds and launch even more apps and programs in that account and switch quickly back to the other. It's awesome to see and hear people being impressed by the Metro animations. It's great to hear people enjoying it.

    Microsoft can't make a living supporting only power users of Windows. Although some find the Start Screen cumbersome, just wait. It's a build between alpha and beta. It's a build to promote metro app design. Microsoft isn't forgetting Desktop users, they realized that hundreds of millions of people use it every day. We've only seen one aspect of Windows 8. We haven't seen the other facet of it, Desktop. But that might be a stickler since that will be Metro designed. I bet that the Pictures library will be metroized. Just like when you browse for User Tiles and Lock Screens. I see Windows 8 as the transition from DOS to GUI and 3.1 to 95. It's truly a major time for a product that has been used more than a billion times in the past couple decades.
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  7. #47


    Posts : 162
    windows 7


    Quote Originally Posted by Coke Robot View Post

    Microsoft can't make a living supporting only power users of Windows. Although some find the Start Screen cumbersome, just wait. It's a build between alpha and beta. It's a build to promote metro app design. Microsoft isn't forgetting Desktop users, they realized that hundreds of millions of people use it every day. We've only seen one aspect of Windows 8. We haven't seen the other facet of it, Desktop. But that might be a stickler since that will be Metro designed. I bet that the Pictures library will be metroized. Just like when you browse for User Tiles and Lock Screens. I see Windows 8 as the transition from DOS to GUI and 3.1 to 95. It's truly a major time for a product that has been used more than a billion times in the past couple decades.
    Well, I appreciate your effort in trying to explain to me the rationale of how dumbing down an OS is good for business. I do not buy it. I find Metro esthetically offensive and repugnant. I would certainly not spend a penny on MS OSs for the foreseeable future. In fact, Win8 may be what I need to move to another OS. Maybe MS would find enough grandmas and grandpas willing to touch its tiles. I think that I have better things to do. It is high time to really evaluate moving to the MacOS. I believe that Win8 would be what the doctor ordered for Apple. The collapse of MS share in the enterprise would not be long in coming. In fact, it would be a good opportunity to go short on Microsoft. Highly recommended.

    Personally, I do not mind the world of Android. I do have an Android phone that is far more capable and far more customizable (and even user friendly) than a WP7 phone. WP7 is the dumbing down of the smartphone. It is not even very user friendly. The moment you live the Metro front screen, all you see is a stupid list of apps and no way of customizing it. Yikes!!! Yes, grandmas and grandpas would like this type of a phone, but I can bet you that most would not buy it. In fact, this is what is happening. You have difficulty believing it, but Metro is not visually appealing. It simply does not have the visual appeal of an interface that marries icons and widgets (many of which are fantastically animated). Not only that, but these widgets in Android do all that the "tiles" do and even more. Thus, if you even bother to fashion the screens of an Android phone with widgets, you would get something far more visually appealing than WP7 and more informative (and you can even resize these widgets in ICS). Why would I like a dumb-down smart phone????

    This is the beauty of Android that MS has not grasped. One can make the inteface as dumb or as smart as one wishes. It gives one choices if one wants to venture beyond what the manufacturer has placed there. And seriously, I find HTC phones with Sense more easy to use for an average consumer than WP7.
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  8. #48


    Hafnarfjörður IS
    Posts : 4,376
    Linux Centos 7, W8.1, W7, W2K3 Server W10


    HI there
    HTC Phones (or ANY smart phone) isn't as simple to use as people think they are -- and as for all those horrible apps all over the place doing goodness knows what (it's almost impossible to see what's ACTUALLY RUNNING on an android phone) well I'll pass on the whole idea of "Apps". - If you travel and use your phone for "Roaming" you invariable won't be able to install an app anyway --it will say "Phone not registered" and then you need to use some weird google gmail account.

    If MS can keep away from this whole NONSENSE while still allowing traditional desktop users to install proper 3rd party software -- not these "Mickey Mouse" apps from some "app store" then W8 will be just fine -- and actually provided there aren't too many of them displayed at once the Metro idea isn't a bad thing to have even on a traditional desktop.

    I don't have anything against a traditional start type menu either -- I hate having too many icons / logos on a desktop.

    What IMO W8 should have --like Linux has had for AGES and even XP did it passably was to allow a number of Virtual Desktops that you could switch between easily.

    Memory and CPU of modern computers - even netbooks - can accomadte the overhead easily enough.

    From what I've seen of W8 so far I rather like it -- but we shall see nearer Beta if a load of "Bloat" has been added which could slow it down.

    Cheers
    jimbo
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  9. #49


    Posts : 48
    Win7 Ultimate x64 SP1


    As far as enterprise goes the cost of upgrading is significant because of lost production time during the upgrade process as well as the license costs etc. That alone is enough to make 8 irrelevant so forget about metro being the problem. Most places I have been still use win2k for just that reason.

    As far as a tablet goes I would gladly pay the same exact price as an ipad2 for a tablet with win8 simple as that. I loath android and things that begin with a lower case i. Imagine a quad core or better tablet running win8 just let that visualization swash around in your brain for a moment... Yeah I know to much awesome to handle.
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  10. #50


    Metro isnt the only enhancement in W8, we will have to wait to see what the beta reserves for tradtional desktop users, and I personaly think it's gonna be good !
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

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Windows 8 will be 'largely irrelevant' to traditional PC users: IDC
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