Windows 8 and 8.1 Forums


Windows 8 will be 'largely irrelevant' to traditional PC users: IDC

  1. #31


    Posts : 5,707
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    Quote Originally Posted by ADRz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Coke Robot View Post
    I don't see how Microsoft is killing the Desktop user. I mean, if you don't care for full screen apps, just don't use them. The Start Screen can be used to organize your programs and see what you have installed better than the menu control. The Taskbar takes that role as well. I wouldn't put Windows 8 past the common user. If they see something new and shiny, it sparks interest. Look at apple's ipad, a big shiny itouch was all it took to get us to this point.

    I understand you're a big desktop user, I am too. Literally, the first thing I do when I start up is launch about five different programs in Desktop. I launch the Weather, RSS, and Stocks app as well. That's just idle random time, that's not serious using. It seems you think that Microsoft is going to be abandoning the Desktop altogether to desktop users, that isn't true.

    I like the Metro interface because it puts relevant information in a simplified, polished view. I mean, I enjoy watching the HTML5 video background in the Weather app when I see the week forecast. I don't need a window in IE to take me to an MSN weather site anymore. It's clean and usable. I also like switching between views, apps, and going into the Start Screen, the animations are of Metro design are quite different and new to what I'm used to.

    I dislike android because I believe it's simply a jailbroken iphone with the droid being the quintessential android and other phones being like the descendants of Cain; disunified and hideous and unstable. I can't stand to use androids because there are three different versions out there with different navigations, different skins, and just flat out confusing. I find the Windows Phone 7 to be much better because not only does it solve that usability issue, it puts people and relevant information first. The interface is clean, different, and very fluid. Unlike android where it's an iphone interface on top of an old blackberry settings menu.

    But then again, it's all a matter of taste. If you liked Windows Mobile and android, it seems like you tend for particular customizations. That's ok. But really, comparing interfaces, WP7 hands down wins. The average android user is marveled by it.

    To add on to your comment about Microsoft trying to sell devices with Metro design so they can get WP7 users and such, apple has done that already. Their ipad and iphone have done the reverse. You can see a trend of people spending a good thousand dollars on mac crap because they were satisfied with those interfaces. They're just condensed version of mac os. There isn't a real reason why people are going to macs other than that. Windows is stable to the point where there aren't those performance or security concerns anymore like with vista. Interfaces matter.
    Let me clarify a few things:

    (a) In organizing programs and workflow, the Metro-style start page is not efficient as the desktop. If you want an animated application for the weather (are you really kidding?) what is wrong with dozens of desktop gadgets doing just that and which do not require any serious amount of desktop place?
    (b) It is visual unappealing. It is very boring and it lacks style.
    (c) Its customizability is substantially less than that of the desktop
    (d) It simply gets in the way. Moving out of the desktop brings up this lousy screen again!!! No way of getting rid of it.

    Unlike you, I really like Android. ICS actually shows to MS what a great interface looks like. In fact, with ICS one can fashion a start screen that resembles Win8 and then some. By the time Win8 comes out, there is going to be a veritable flood of ICS tablets are ridiculously low prices. I just do not think that MS would find a lot of buyers for these tablets and if users do not embrace Win8, then MS would be buried not only at the desktop but also in the mobile space. If it collapses badly, I can see Google muscling up Android to take over the desktop and it may make huge inroads.

    With Win8, MS is taking a stupid gamble by abandoning its base in going to hunt for consumers. It was done so with WP7 with very poor results. In the mobile space, it abandoned millions of users of WinMo in the enterprise and all of them essentially have moved to Android. Thus, while in the beginning of 2010, MS had a 13% market share (all WinMo), it is now at 1.5% with WP7!!! The reason is quite obvious. Far superior hardware, excellent software and great business tools (access to the file system and encryption). Plus, even with the Mango update, there is no support for high resolution screens, full HD video, and most importantly, LTE. And there is not going to be any support for these until well into the next year when WP7 would have to compete against many ICS phones and iPhone 5.

    Thus, disaster looms for Microsoft. By forcing desktop users to be exposed to "Metro" in order to leverage its desktop dominance to the mobile space, MS is likely to lose it all.
    a. Not very true. The DP of 8 is just the shell of Start Screen. The beta will allow much better organization. The Start Screen is literally taking program links out of being covered up in a folder into a bin, where you can see and find things better.
    b. To some, yes. Overall, many people find it interesting, not just myself.
    c. Customization isn't in the DP. Wait for the beta build.
    d. Rejecting the Start Screen isn't the best of ideas until you know how to fully utilize its benefits. I can find programs that I don't have on my taskbar easier than in 7. It takes a hit of the Start key, a brief scroll and a click. Done.

    I doubt Microsoft will have issues with selling tablets. If tablets are in the 2-3 hundred dollar range, which they are, buying a Windows tablet over an android is a better sell and a better buy. And no, if google peddles android to the desktop, that is the day I will die and the government has power and control over you.

    The WP7 isn't a failure. It's done better in its first year compared to android's first year with MUCH less advertising. The Windows Mobile market wasn't that significant, even then, blackberry has been the flagship enterprise phone. android has made headway, but the WP7 has breached into that market as well. Even then, carriers are far more interested in peddling android phones because they're inexpensive on midrange to crappy hardware with three different, inconsistent, insecure versions of android. The android you're talking about is the Motorola Droid, not the LG android, or the Samsung android, or the HTC android, or the whatever android. Of course there are some that can do that, not a lot of people utilize those features. The idea that WP7s can't support high resolutions isn't true. The Nokia Lumia 800 as of now has the highest resolution, as of now. The platform has only been out in the market for a year and two months now. LTE is coming in the next few months. Microsoft can't code a platform to have those features if manufacturers aren't building phones with those features. And no, it's not going to be well into next year, it's going to be well into late January of next year, a month.

    You're saying that metro is simply a full screen app. You need to look a little further than that. A perfect example of a desktop metro styled program is the Zune software. It's better styled than itunes, manages music better, has a better set up market, and is simply visually pleasing with the Now Playing visualizer. It's designed better for desktop users, while being somewhat usable with tablet users.

    I don't think Microsoft's approach here is to make their mobile market stronger. They're going for most likely a unified approach. Windows on a PC, Windows on an Xbox, Windows on a phone, Windows on a tablet. I'd see they'll take the strengths of each device and code specifically for that. I also see them having different devices work together to use the other device's features, like connecting your phone to your desktop to make phone calls instead of having a separate desk phone. A PC can share media with an Xbox and the reverse, which is already done.

    I don't know, I don't want to the shmuck still using xp in the year 2014 just because I can't adapt to newer changes and adapt them to my personal, PC use....

      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  2. #32


    Posts : 5,707
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    Click image for larger versionClick image for larger versionThis is what my Start Screen looks like. I have it as customizable as far as the build will allow. I don't see the Start Screen as obliterating the Desktop. I see it more as an extension of such. It has all my program icons, with their names, in grids. What can you find looks like that? A typical Windows desktop. And I use some metro apps that go full screen. What Windows programs do that? Games, video players, music players. Unlike those, some display relevant information.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  3. #33


    Posts : 5,360
    7/8/ubuntu/Linux Deepin


    It is a matter of preference - I loathe and detest the metro ui on a desktop.

    Ok for a tablet maybe, but I don't want it on on a desktop, or laptop for that matter.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  4. #34


    Posts : 162
    windows 7


    Quote Originally Posted by Coke Robot View Post
    Click image for larger versionClick image for larger versionThis is what my Start Screen looks like. I have it as customizable as far as the build will allow. I don't see the Start Screen as obliterating the Desktop. I see it more as an extension of such. It has all my program icons, with their names, in grids. What can you find looks like that? A typical Windows desktop. And I use some metro apps that go full screen. What Windows programs do that? Games, video players, music players. Unlike those, some display relevant information.
    Do you honestly think that this is in any way visually appealing or helpful????? I am lost in a group of grey squares with no visual appeal whatsoever. Compared to the desktop, it looks drab. In addition, there is no way to include all the elements that I want in this screen. It is not usable and it is not attractive. But this is what happens when you design an operating system to be efficient in small screens (4 to 11''). This is by definition counterproductive for the desktop.

    I amazed that you like it. Compared with the visual appeal of the desktop with icons, taskbar and gadgets, you have a blown-up phone interface that lacks depth and any kind of finesse or design appeal. Microsoft will find all this to its horror.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  5. #35


    Posts : 162
    windows 7


    Quote Originally Posted by SIW2 View Post
    It is a matter of preference - I loathe and detest the metro ui on a desktop.

    Ok for a tablet maybe, but I don't want it on on a desktop, or laptop for that matter.
    Let me second this with a passion
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  6. #36


    Yucaipa, California, USA
    Posts : 130
    Windows 8.1 Pro w/ WMC x64


    Quote Originally Posted by ADRz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Coke Robot View Post
    Click image for larger versionClick image for larger versionThis is what my Start Screen looks like. I have it as customizable as far as the build will allow. I don't see the Start Screen as obliterating the Desktop. I see it more as an extension of such. It has all my program icons, with their names, in grids. What can you find looks like that? A typical Windows desktop. And I use some metro apps that go full screen. What Windows programs do that? Games, video players, music players. Unlike those, some display relevant information.
    Do you honestly think that this is in any way visually appealing or helpful????? I am lost in a group of grey squares with no visual appeal whatsoever. Compared to the desktop, it looks drab. In addition, there is no way to include all the elements that I want in this screen. It is not usable and it is not attractive. But this is what happens when you design an operating system to be efficient in small screens (4 to 11''). This is by definition counterproductive for the desktop.

    I amazed that you like it. Compared with the visual appeal of the desktop with icons, taskbar and gadgets, you have a blown-up phone interface that lacks depth and any kind of finesse or design appeal. Microsoft will find all this to its horror.
    I find it visually appealing, its just a matter of preference and accepting change. I find the new start menu better than the ones in the older windows versions, I just don't like looking at a linear list of folders in a small space trying to find the program I need.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  7. #37


    Posts : 162
    windows 7


    Quote Originally Posted by Coke Robot View Post
    I doubt Microsoft will have issues with selling tablets. If tablets are in the 2-3 hundred dollar range, which they are, buying a Windows tablet over an android is a better sell and a better buy. And no, if google peddles android to the desktop, that is the day I will die and the government has power and control over you.

    The WP7 isn't a failure. It's done better in its first year compared to android's first year with MUCH less advertising. The Windows Mobile market wasn't that significant, even then, blackberry has been the flagship enterprise phone. android has made headway, but the WP7 has breached into that market as well.

    You're saying that metro is simply a full screen app. You need to look a little further than that. A perfect example of a desktop metro styled program is the Zune software. It's better styled than itunes, manages music better, has a better set up market, and is simply visually pleasing with the Now Playing visualizer. It's designed better for desktop users, while being somewhat usable with tablet users.

    I don't think Microsoft's approach here is to make their mobile market stronger. They're going for most likely a unified approach. Windows on a PC, Windows on an Xbox, Windows on a phone, Windows on a tablet. I'd see they'll take the strengths of each device and code specifically for that. I also see them having different devices work together to use the other device's features, like connecting your phone to your desktop to make phone calls instead of having a separate desk phone. A PC can share media with an Xbox and the reverse, which is already done.

    I don't know, I don't want to the shmuck still using xp in the year 2014 just because I can't adapt to newer changes and adapt them to my personal, PC use....
    Let me address the tablet issue first. There is no way that Microsoft partners can sell tablets in the below $300 price range. If this actually happens, it would only happen if Microsoft drops the price of Win8 to about $10 a license. If it does so, it would go bankrupt. There is also no way that Microsoft can demand $150 per license either. And it would find a hard sell to ask for that amount of money from desktop users while asking $20 -15 from tablet users. Many have pointed out that the economics of Microsoft's strategy are virtually impossible. So, they would have to really drop the price of a Windows license and with the move to the cloud and the tablets, their MS Office unit will start hemorrhaging money. Would you pay at least $200 for MS Office 2012 for a tablet? I think not. But it is going to be the same application, right? So, MS would be selling Office 2012 for $20 in their store and asking almost $300 for a shrink-wrapped version??? This is crazy. They are going to the poor house. By definition, Windows tablets (Intel) will be somewhere in the $600-700 range. ARM-based tablets may be cheaper but then they are not Windows, are they? With their terribly limited app support, why would anybody even bother to buy an ARM-win8 tablet?

    WP7 and WP7.5 are failures, anyway you look at it. Very few consumers will pick up these phones. I have played for over 1 hour with one and then I went and bought an LTE Android phone (the Galaxy SII Skyrocket). Why? Because they are not exactly "smartphones". They are smartphones for dummies. Their customization options are extremely limited, and the moment you leave the original Metro screen you are presented with a long, long list of apps that you cannot organize in any decent way. Forget what the MS PR says. These phones are way below the usability and features curve and will be also runs.

    I would not go into the extreme limitations of the new start screen. One user has posted his/hers screen above. Just see that the five little icons of the MS Office programs have taken over almost 1/8th of the screen. The screen is deeply unappealing. For many, it would resemble a quilt made from rags. It is a disaster. It is probably OK for a small surface, but why would I want to have this monstrosity in my desktop? Please let me know.

    Please, do not give me here the same old song and dance that "we cannot adapt to changes". I will adapt to anything superior. I moved to Vista even when it was "dangerous" to do so because I realize the progress. I used Win7 from the early betas. So, if you want to be touching squares, this is fine with me. But do not make assumptions about others.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  8. #38


    Posts : 162
    windows 7


    Quote Originally Posted by ionbasa View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ADRz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Coke Robot View Post
    Click image for larger versionClick image for larger versionThis is what my Start Screen looks like. I have it as customizable as far as the build will allow. I don't see the Start Screen as obliterating the Desktop. I see it more as an extension of such. It has all my program icons, with their names, in grids. What can you find looks like that? A typical Windows desktop. And I use some metro apps that go full screen. What Windows programs do that? Games, video players, music players. Unlike those, some display relevant information.
    Do you honestly think that this is in any way visually appealing or helpful????? I am lost in a group of grey squares with no visual appeal whatsoever. Compared to the desktop, it looks drab. In addition, there is no way to include all the elements that I want in this screen. It is not usable and it is not attractive. But this is what happens when you design an operating system to be efficient in small screens (4 to 11''). This is by definition counterproductive for the desktop.

    I amazed that you like it. Compared with the visual appeal of the desktop with icons, taskbar and gadgets, you have a blown-up phone interface that lacks depth and any kind of finesse or design appeal. Microsoft will find all this to its horror.
    I find it visually appealing, its just a matter of preference and accepting change. I find the new start menu better than the ones in the older windows versions, I just don't like looking at a linear list of folders in a small space trying to find the program I need.
    Accepting change? Why? For change's sake??? If they ask you to walk around naked would you do it? Some change we accept because we have no choice but here we have a choice. I would accept changes that advance the state of the art, not the ones that regress it.

    I do not understand you comment about a "linear list of folders". I do not remember any desktop that looks like this. Here is how my desktop looks.

    Click image for larger version

    I do not see any linear list of folders. The icons for the Office programs take a minute amount of space, and not 1/8th of the desktop as your start screen. And I think that the whole thing is far more appealing and far more effective.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  9. #39


    Yucaipa, California, USA
    Posts : 130
    Windows 8.1 Pro w/ WMC x64


    Quote Originally Posted by ADRz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ionbasa View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ADRz View Post

    Do you honestly think that this is in any way visually appealing or helpful????? I am lost in a group of grey squares with no visual appeal whatsoever. Compared to the desktop, it looks drab. In addition, there is no way to include all the elements that I want in this screen. It is not usable and it is not attractive. But this is what happens when you design an operating system to be efficient in small screens (4 to 11''). This is by definition counterproductive for the desktop.

    I amazed that you like it. Compared with the visual appeal of the desktop with icons, taskbar and gadgets, you have a blown-up phone interface that lacks depth and any kind of finesse or design appeal. Microsoft will find all this to its horror.
    I find it visually appealing, its just a matter of preference and accepting change. I find the new start menu better than the ones in the older windows versions, I just don't like looking at a linear list of folders in a small space trying to find the program I need.
    Accepting change? Why? For change's sake??? If they ask you to walk around naked would you do it? Some change we accept because we have no choice but here we have a choice. I would accept changes that advance the state of the art, not the ones that regress it.

    I do not understand you comment about a "linear list of folders". I do not remember any desktop that looks like this. Here is how my desktop looks.

    Click image for larger version

    I do not see any linear list of folders. The icons for the Office programs take a minute amount of space, and not 1/8th of the desktop as your start screen. And I think that the whole thing is far more appealing and far more effective.
    I was referring to the start menu, not the desktop, the desktop will still be implemented in windows 8 alongside the metro ui.
    Click image for larger versionSee the picture there is a live tile to the actual desktop so it will still be there, the metro ui in my opinion should be made to replace the start menu.

    The current start menu is in my opinion just lacking.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  10. #40


    Posts : 162
    windows 7


    [QUOTE=ionbasa;49528][QUOTE=ADRz;49485]
    Quote Originally Posted by ionbasa View Post

    I was referring to the start menu, not the desktop, the desktop will still be implemented in windows 8 alongside the metro ui.
    Click image for larger versionSee the picture there is a live tile to the actual desktop so it will still be there, the metro ui in my opinion should be made to replace the start menu.

    The current start menu is in my opinion just lacking.
    Who is actually using the Start Menu to launch a program with so many other choices on the desktop. The problem with the Start Screen is that it interferes with access to the desktop as you well know. MS wants to replace your desktop with the Start screen. They want you to be looking at the Start Screen so that you would be familiarized with it and then go out and buy their tablets. They expect this Pavlovian response.

    Now, honestly, do you really see the screen you have just displayed as appropriate for large monitors???? This is kiddy stuff!!!
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

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Windows 8 will be 'largely irrelevant' to traditional PC users: IDC
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