Windows 8 and 8.1 Forums


Windows 8 will be 'largely irrelevant' to traditional PC users: IDC

  1. #111


    Posts : 288
    Windows 7 Ultimate, Windows Developer Preview, Linux Mint 9


    Quote Originally Posted by Coke Robot View Post
    That prompt you were talking about reminds me of the feature in xp that told you of unused icons. I have to say that yeah, if your Start Screen has many apps and programs in it, it would be cluttered. That's why you can unpin said apps or programs or uninstall them right from there. There's the Search function for Apps that Microsoft has been working on to group installed programs together. It's like with the Windows Phone 7, there's the Start Screen and Start Menu. The Start Screen has your customized frequently used apps while the Start Menu hosts all of your installed apps, including the ones you have on the Screen that you use most and apps that you use once in while.
    Yeah, that's precisely where I got the idea of the prompt. On that utility on Windows XP, there is this prompt that allows you to clean unused icons. But on the prompt I suggested, it asks you to uninstall not frequently used programs. I don't use Windows Phone so I'm used to the interface it has regarding programs and stuff. Its also possible for them to devise a way to have program shortcut icons on the Desktop have an Uninstall option on the context menu when you right click at them.

    I also propose the idea, that Metro apps should have minimize, close and maximize buttons. And also a sliding bar should be present on the bottom or the top of the Metro screen that shows minimized Metro apps. That would make multitasking really possible and Metro so much more acceptable to desktop users alike.


    Quote Originally Posted by Coke Robot View Post
    Really fast and off topic, you have a TV tuner and get the Discovery channel? Do you get that from Media Center or from a provider? I'm planning on ditching my boobtube TV and buy this gorgeous monitor and consolidate devices so that monitor will the the video of the TV and my stereo be the audio for it. All at the same time being the monitor for Windows.
    I'm just demonstrating my own exploitation of Desktop multitasking using Windows 7. I have a TV Tuner which is a hardware rigged into my PCI slot at the back of my motherboard. Our TV cable is plugged into my TV Tuner. Its an analog tuner. Windows Media Center automatically detects that when you set up live TV in it. You could watch live TV fullscreen or windowed and there is even an option on Windows Media Center that lets it sit on top of other windows of other opened programs. I could also do this when watching DVD movies, videos and things like that. My TV tuner also has a radio antenna and a sensor so I can also listen to local FM radio from our place and use a remote control on Windows Media Center so my PC turns into a real TV. I am not subscribed to any online TV providers like Netflix. Its purely from the analog cable TV we have on our place. We have 30 or so channels in our place, not bad. My PC turns into a multi-purpose work, gaming and entertainment, God-given machine. Windows Media Center is really great so I suggest you try using it. I also hope the Windows 8 version gets even better and less prone to bugs.

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  2. #112


    Posts : 5,707
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    Quote Originally Posted by Vertex View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Coke Robot View Post
    That prompt you were talking about reminds me of the feature in xp that told you of unused icons. I have to say that yeah, if your Start Screen has many apps and programs in it, it would be cluttered. That's why you can unpin said apps or programs or uninstall them right from there. There's the Search function for Apps that Microsoft has been working on to group installed programs together. It's like with the Windows Phone 7, there's the Start Screen and Start Menu. The Start Screen has your customized frequently used apps while the Start Menu hosts all of your installed apps, including the ones you have on the Screen that you use most and apps that you use once in while.
    Yeah, that's precisely where I got the idea of the prompt. On that utility on Windows XP, there is this prompt that allows you to clean unused icons. But on the prompt I suggested, it asks you to uninstall not frequently used programs. I don't use Windows Phone so I'm used to the interface it has regarding programs and stuff. Its also possible for them to devise a way to have program shortcut icons on the Desktop have an Uninstall option on the context menu when you right click at them.

    I also propose the idea, that Metro apps should have minimize, close and maximize buttons. And also a sliding bar should be present on the bottom or the top of the Metro screen that shows minimized Metro apps. That would make multitasking really possible and Metro so much more acceptable to desktop users alike.


    Quote Originally Posted by Coke Robot View Post
    Really fast and off topic, you have a TV tuner and get the Discovery channel? Do you get that from Media Center or from a provider? I'm planning on ditching my boobtube TV and buy this gorgeous monitor and consolidate devices so that monitor will the the video of the TV and my stereo be the audio for it. All at the same time being the monitor for Windows.
    I'm just demonstrating my own exploitation of Desktop multitasking using Windows 7. I have a TV Tuner which is a hardware rigged into my PCI slot at the back of my motherboard. Our TV cable is plugged into my TV Tuner. Its an analog tuner. Windows Media Center automatically detects that when you set up live TV in it. You could watch live TV fullscreen or windowed and there is even an option on Windows Media Center that lets it sit on top of other windows of other opened programs. I could also do this when watching DVD movies, videos and things like that. My TV tuner also has a radio antenna and a sensor so I can also listen to local FM radio from our place and use a remote control on Windows Media Center so my PC turns into a real TV. I am not subscribed to any online TV providers like Netflix. Its purely from the analog cable TV we have on our place. We have 30 or so channels in our place, not bad. My PC turns into a multi-purpose work, gaming and entertainment, God-given machine. Windows Media Center is really great so I suggest you try using it. I also hope the Windows 8 version gets even better and less prone to bugs.
    I think Microsoft might add the minimize, maximize, and close functions into touch gestures for tablets. They're really into not having the chrome in metro, so that might be a possibility.

    That's pretty cool with the TV tuner. I was debating whether or not to buy a USB or PCI TV tuner specifically for my desktop. I have a digital box tuner that I'm planning on using for my new monitor, but Windows Media Center sounds pretty nice. I'd like to use a digital DVR. I really hope Media Center takes on more Zune Software design, it'll look just gorgeous!
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  3. #113


    Posts : 288
    Windows 7 Ultimate, Windows Developer Preview, Linux Mint 9


    Well, I have a PCI TV tuner and I think it holds more jacks than standard USB tuners though PCI tuners are harder to install obviously but mine also came with a setup CD that has an installer of a media center kind of program for watching TV but that was buggy so I ditched that and used Windows Media Center. My PCI Tuner has jacks for the TV cable, S video in, audio in, video in, audio out, antenna jack and a jack for the remote sensor but USB Tuners usually only have the TV cable jack so I felt, there is more to get with PCI one. On the Device Manager, its listed as "Philips SAA713X, Hybrid Capture Device" under Sound, video and game controllers. WMC, however is good at TV recording as well but even on the lowest recording quality, it still makes huge recorded TV files. Yesterday, I read a year-old article about Microsoft dropping TV tuner support for its future version of Windows Media Center, assuming TV would be Internet based anyway. Dunno if its true, I hope that doesn't come true because how else could I watch live TV if my connection is slow and if I don't have Internet?

    I just find it a bit frustrating, WMC was not included on the WDP. I still use Windows 7 for that.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  4. #114


    Posts : 203
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    I kinda agree, Windows 8 is not must upgrade for current Windows 7 desktop users and will only interest those who want the latest from Microsoft.

    Unlike the the transition from XP/Vista to Windows 7 where XP users were running on a outdated OS with declining support and Vista was plague with bugs and performance problems, Windows 8 does not introduce anything new for desktop users who are on an already nearly perfect Windows 7 OS.

    However, for tablet and laptop users Windows 8 maybe a viable upgrade since the OS is better suited for mobile computing, touch screens and maybe even touchpads; in fact the Metro UI is made specifically for touch screen tablets.

    Regardless, laptop users still have a reason to upgrade to Window 8 since the new OS promises better battery life, faster booting with Hybrid boot, better memory management (less memory footprint) and better security (always a good thing on wireless).
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  5. #115


    Posts : 162
    windows 7


    Quote Originally Posted by Nemix View Post
    I kinda agree, Windows 8 is not must upgrade for current Windows 7 desktop users and will only interest those who want the latest from Microsoft.

    Unlike the the transition from XP/Vista to Windows 7 where XP users were running on a outdated OS with declining support and Vista was plague with bugs and performance problems, Windows 8 does not introduce anything new for desktop users who are on an already nearly perfect Windows 7 OS.

    However, for tablet and laptop users Windows 8 maybe a viable upgrade since the OS is better suited for mobile computing, touch screens and maybe even touchpads; in fact the Metro UI is made specifically for touch screen tablets.

    Regardless, laptop users still have a reason to upgrade to Window 8 since the new OS promises better battery life, faster booting with Hybrid boot, better memory management (less memory footprint) and better security (always a good thing on wireless).
    Actually, I do not agree that Win8 is a "viable upgrade" in either laptops or tablets. In fact, in tablets, users would need to decide between iOS, Android and Win8 (or even WebOS, if anybody picks this up). In that space, I just think that most users would prefer the iOS and Android OSes for the amazingly rich ecosystems that they have. I have not seen any convincing argument why anybody should go and buy a Win8 tablet.

    In the laptops, it makes poor ergonomics to touch the screen for actions. Not unless you want to strengthen your shoulder muscles. I think that Win8 on laptops is a silly idea, touch screens or no touch screens. Even if there are touch screens in a laptop, most users would not use it because it makes such a poor ergonomic sense. In addition, in the enterprise, most laptops operate docked.

    Again, Win8 would be a great disaster for Microsoft.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  6. #116


    Scotland
    Posts : 192
    Windows 8.1 Pro x64


    I fully agree with ADRz
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  7. #117


    Posts : 5,707
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    Quote Originally Posted by ADRz View Post
    First of all, let me tell you that I fully understand that all of us have different likes and dislikes. I appreciate your thoughts and input. Now here are my thoughts and the reply applies to Vertex as well.

    First of all, my point of departure is not "living with Win8". My point of departure is "why do I want Win8". If I have "to live with Win8", then I would surely try to adapt the system, customize it and increase its efficiency. I need to decide if I want it at all and if I would like to install it in a good number of machines in my business. My current examination of Win8 tells me that this is system is poorly (if at all) adopted to my needs. Thus, the answer so far is that I do not need and I do not desire Win8. And I will explain.

    You show only one pane of the Start Screen. If your system even closely resembles mine, scrolling to the right will only reveal panes upon panes of grey boxes with little icons. Yes or no? These icons defy any reasonable organization. Now, how is this remotely more efficient than the current Start menu? it is not. it is the usual presentation of apps in smartphones and tablets. It may make sense in these devices, but it does not make sense in the desktop. Not by a long shot. (Parenthetically, a number of Android smartphone and tablet vendors, have found a answer to this that resembles "Fences". Samsung's "Touchwiz" allows you to create "folders" on the screen where you can assemble similar type apps. That allows for more reasonable organization). So, the moment you depart the first pane of the Start Screen, there is simply chaos.

    Then, you have the fact that the only reason for running this Start Screen is to run these minor apps, the Metro-style apps. Why on earth would I want to do this? We run these apps in smartphones and tablets because we are sort of resources; we are short of processing power, we are short of storage and we are short of memory. Why would you even want to run a Metro-style app on your desktop? There dozens of desktop applications that can provide a far deeper and more impressive computing experience. Then, these Metro-style apps are full screen. Why would I need to run little apps created to provide a decent output in limited resources full screen in a heavy-duty 64-bit quad-processor machine with a 30''-inch screen????? I need this about as well as a hole in the head. Thus, Metro-style apps: (a) provide a worse output and experience than desktop and browser apps; (b) defy multitasking and (c) cannot be windowed. Thus, the last thing any desktop user wants are these Metro-style apps.

    Does Win8 has some minor improvements under the hood? Yes, it does. But in systems like mine, they are totally dispensable. In my various powerful systems, the better use of memory and other resources will not even be noticed.

    I still remain to be convinced of any potential advantages in Win8. I do not see here anything that I like, at least for the desktops and laptops under my care.

    Now, how about tablets? I really do not care about tablets that much, but knowing Metro quite well and knowing ICS, I would say that the latter is better (and does all the things Metro does). In a year from now, MS would be confronting not just ICS-based tablets, but tablets running the successor of ICS!!! My guess is that Metro would be found seriously wanting against these devices. Unfortunately, I foresee that MS's abandonment of the desktop to try and chase the tablet market would only result in disaster. I hope I am wrong.
    I was actually going to ask you this, how long have you sat down and used Windows 8?

    As for reasonable organization, I have reasonable organization that doesn't need to be grouped as of now in folders or in groups. It's organized based on how often I use said apps and programs. The ones I use most go from left to right on my screen. Reasonably organized for me. The Start Screen as of now is simple chaos to you, but you do know Windows 8 hasn't been RTMed yet, right? I mean, I think there might be a little more to discover.

    Hmm, 10 years ago, we had cell phones that were 2 square inched screens with only being able to call and maybe text. Now, they're 4.3 inch diagonal screens with a gigahertz or faster processor with either 512 MB or 1 gig of RAM. A phone for crying out loud. Apps may be running on phones that are short of something, but that's probably an android phone...

    Why would I need to use gadgets that suck some of my system resource to only be gaudy little things that look like skinned Windows Media Players from 2003 if they only show bits of information? Why would I use my dual core processor with six gigs of RAM with a 17 inch monitor just so I can have a stack on the left side of my desktop cluttered with little widgets? I don't know.[/QUOTE]

    First, I examined the WDP version for a few days. It was making my life more difficult, not easier

    First of all, the Start Screen is simply way inefficient in my 30-inch monitor. It all covers my secondary 21'-inch monitor. Dreadful. It is far easier to organize applications that I use in the taskbar and desktop (and far more visually appealing) than these grey boxes and scrolling for ever. Very inefficient

    Second, what do smartphones have to do with anything we are discussing here? Or is your contention that the Start Screen is such a huge innovation? (Well, it is not. The basic design goes back to 80's era shells and it does not even look as nice as those!!! It is just too old time!! Metro is actually retro; not to mention that the basic elements of the interface was in Windows Media for ever and only 1% of Windows users choose to use this application!!!. It has been in Zune for centuries and did not garner much support. So, why are you so keen on it????)

    The desktop gadgets suck resources? In a Sandybridge quad-core system with 16 GB of memory and SSDs, their presence it is not noticed!!! The great advantage of gadgets: You can very easily get to them. For a Metro app, if you work in the desktop, you need to switch to the Start Screen and then launch the app that takes the whole screen. When you exit, the app is suspended. The gadgets simply take 1/100th of my screen. One of my gadgets simply streams BBC radio. I can start it and stop it at a moment's notice. I do not have to switch screens. It is a tiny gadget. Why would I want a huge screen and multiple clicks to listen to BBC? It makes no sense whatsoever. I can bring many other examples.

    You are retrogressing, not progressing. You may have difficulty believing this, but if you have to do more work to obtain the same benefits, this is not progress.

    Why do you run Windows? Answer this. I run Windows not because it is Windows but because I want to run Windows applications. Period. Nothing more, nothing less. Anything that gets in the way, it is a problem, not a solution.[/QUOTE]
    So, after a few days, you made the final decision that Windows 8 isn't anything to be considered. I'm going to guess that is why you don't like it, based off a few days. I, on the other hand, have been using it since September literally everyday. I've examined it, compared it to Windows 7, made customizations, organized it, and am currently content with the Start Screen and hope that the Metro design gets translated into the Desktop to make it cleaner and more modern looking.

    Smartphones have something in this discussion since you were talking about smartphones being short on resources and having to use simplistic design for apps.

    I actually have already thought metro being retro design that did it with the aero design of Windows 7. Modern, yet old. Hate to break it to you, no one uses Media Center not for the design, but for the fact that people use itunes. I've tried to convert people from using itunes to the Zune Software and have been barely successful. The only problem is that Zune won't use ipods, and for that one reason only, that is why I can't get people to use it even though those people have told me it's actually better than itunes. It's not because of the design. It's because of practicality issues. Most people don't have TV Tuners in their PC to use the best feature of Media Center. But some people do, some people like using it over what else is out there. I can get on about this in a later time...

    And I also hate to break it to you, no one really has an Intel Sandybridge i series processor with 16 gigs of RAM or SSDs. I know you do, but you're the slim minority. Most people have Intel Core Duo 2s or AMD Athlons from 2008 or so with the newer i series scattered around here and there. People don't have upheavals in processing technology. Especially in enterprise situations. And along with that, most people have 4 gigs of RAM, not four times that. And people are still rocking hard drives. And most people don't have 1080p displays. I bet you're proud of your setup and think everyone should have that, but that's a PC, it's personal to the user and their needs.

    That's not fully true with Metro apps. Again with the Weather app, if I need to see what tomorrow's forecast is, I can go to the Start Screen, and look at the app and see the live update and go back to the Desktop. I still believe there are thousands of different opinions on Metro apps and how to design them. Look at apple's app store, it began as simple apps and turned into apps for the healthcare industry and for enterprises.

    You don't have to do more work to do the same amount as before. You use the interface, you know what it is truly capable of from an unbiased standpoint, and you work with it efficiently. It's progress. If I can get to more apps and programs in one screen than I could ever in the start menu, that's progress. If I can use a multitude of different software in different modes, that is progress. If I can easily find programs I use that most and the least in one glance, it's progress. I don't have difficulty in believing this, but I have difficulty in trying to get people to understand what's better.

    I run Windows because I can adapt it to my personal needs and desires. I can use whatever hardware I need or want. It's a PC. I can run Office and print in a windowed mode for a work setting and go into a fullscreen app and experience information in a different way.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  8. #118


    Posts : 5,707
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    Quote Originally Posted by Vertex View Post
    Well, I have a PCI TV tuner and I think it holds more jacks than standard USB tuners though PCI tuners are harder to install obviously but mine also came with a setup CD that has an installer of a media center kind of program for watching TV but that was buggy so I ditched that and used Windows Media Center. My PCI Tuner has jacks for the TV cable, S video in, audio in, video in, audio out, antenna jack and a jack for the remote sensor but USB Tuners usually only have the TV cable jack so I felt, there is more to get with PCI one. On the Device Manager, its listed as "Philips SAA713X, Hybrid Capture Device" under Sound, video and game controllers. WMC, however is good at TV recording as well but even on the lowest recording quality, it still makes huge recorded TV files. Yesterday, I read a year-old article about Microsoft dropping TV tuner support for its future version of Windows Media Center, assuming TV would be Internet based anyway. Dunno if its true, I hope that doesn't come true because how else could I watch live TV if my connection is slow and if I don't have Internet?

    I just find it a bit frustrating, WMC was not included on the WDP. I still use Windows 7 for that.
    That kind of sucks. But WMC goes to show how Microsoft SUCKS at consumer marketing. Just yesterday, I was in walmart and the laptops had a program running that looks it was made by Microsoft to demo off features of Windows 7. WMC was one of those features and the video in the program showed how you could record both Live TV and internet TV. No one really knows about that I bet.

    WMC will be in the beta, my guess is that they're overhauling the media portion of Windows 8...
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  9. #119


    Tropical Island Pair a Dice
    Posts : 3,030
    Windows 8.1 Pro x64/ Windows 7 Ult x64


    This is a pre-Beta version, Windows 8 Developers Preview.
    Not a full version.
    Not with the functionality that will be in the Beta version.
    This was made to entice developers to make new apps for the Metro UI, not desktop.
    The desktop side of Windows 8 was intentionally left sparse for this reason.
    Quote Originally Posted by ADRz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave76 View Post
    I've been debating on whether to post in this thread, the little guy on my shoulder prevailed.

    Disclaimer:
    Every individual has the right to their own preferences.
    It would be a truly boring world if every person had/liked/used the same things.
    We each have the ability to decide what we want to use, no explanation required.
    ...

    As far as finding people here that like Windows 8 and the Metro UI, well, it is a Windows 8 Forum.

    Let's all accept that we don't have to like the same things.
    No one seems to to be convincing anyone to change their opinions, at least we can agree on that.
    First of all, let me tell you that I fully understand that all of us have different likes and dislikes. I appreciate your thoughts and input. Now here are my thoughts and the reply applies to Vertex as well.

    First of all, my point of departure is not "living with Win8". My point of departure is "why do I want Win8". If I have "to live with Win8", then I would surely try to adapt the system, customize it and increase its efficiency. I need to decide if I want it at all and if I would like to install it in a good number of machines in my business. My current examination of Win8 tells me that this is system is poorly (if at all) adopted to my needs. Thus, the answer so far is that I do not need and I do not desire Win8. And I will explain.
    No need to explain, it's your choice.
    When Windows 8 beta comes out, you can get an idea of what they will do with the desktop.
    Which, of coarse, interests the business users.
    I don't think MS will try to alienate their business users, far from it, they have said repeatedly that they have not abandoned the desktop users.

    Quote Originally Posted by ADRz View Post
    You show only one pane of the Start Screen. If your system even closely resembles mine, scrolling to the right will only reveal panes upon panes of grey boxes with little icons. Yes or no? These icons defy any reasonable organization. Now, how is this remotely more efficient than the current Start menu? it is not. it is the usual presentation of apps in smartphones and tablets. It may make sense in these devices, but it does not make sense in the desktop. Not by a long shot. (Parenthetically, a number of Android smartphone and tablet vendors, have found a answer to this that resembles "Fences". Samsung's "Touchwiz" allows you to create "folders" on the screen where you can assemble similar type apps. That allows for more reasonable organization). So, the moment you depart the first pane of the Start Screen, there is simply chaos.
    No gray boxes on my start screen.

    Quote Originally Posted by ADRz View Post
    Then, you have the fact that the only reason for running this Start Screen is to run these minor apps, the Metro-style apps. Why on earth would I want to do this? We run these apps in smartphones and tablets because we are sort of resources; we are short of processing power, we are short of storage and we are short of memory. Why would you even want to run a Metro-style app on your desktop? There dozens of desktop applications that can provide a far deeper and more impressive computing experience. Then, these Metro-style apps are full screen. Why would I need to run little apps created to provide a decent output in limited resources full screen in a heavy-duty 64-bit quad-processor machine with a 30''-inch screen????? I need this about as well as a hole in the head. Thus, Metro-style apps: (a) provide a worse output and experience than desktop and browser apps; (b) defy multitasking and (c) cannot be windowed. Thus, the last thing any desktop user wants are these Metro-style apps.
    Don't think we have seen any truly well done, Metro-style apps yet, maybe they will be better than you expect.
    The apps included in Windows 8 are quickly done samples, wouldn't want to scare away developers with mind-blowing apps.

    Quote Originally Posted by ADRz View Post
    Does Win8 has some minor improvements under the hood? Yes, it does. But in systems like mine, they are totally dispensable. In my various powerful systems, the better use of memory and other resources will not even be noticed.

    I still remain to be convinced of any potential advantages in Win8. I do not see here anything that I like, at least for the desktops and laptops under my care.

    Now, how about tablets? I really do not care about tablets that much, but knowing Metro quite well and knowing ICS, I would say that the latter is better (and does all the things Metro does). In a year from now, MS would be confronting not just ICS-based tablets, but tablets running the successor of ICS!!! My guess is that Metro would be found seriously wanting against these devices. Unfortunately, I foresee that MS's abandonment of the desktop to try and chase the tablet market would only result in disaster. I hope I am wrong.
    Did I mention WDP is a pre-Beta, for app developers?

    Give it a look when the beta or RC are released, I would bet it will be different then what you have seen so far.
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  10. #120


    Posts : 993
    Windows 8 pro Retail


    Dave76 said [quote] Did I mention WDP is a pre-Beta, for app developers?
    Give it a look when the beta or RC are released, I would bet it will be different then what you have seen so far.[end-quote]

    Well yes Dave, we are ALL aware that this is a stable alpha version of the Windows Operating System. BUT non-withstanding Microsoft is viewing ALL WDP boards, so that they can get an understanding of what users of the O/S worldwide are liking and disliking about Windows8 before it goes into Beta. I believe also when the beta is released that we are in for some major interface changes with Windows 8.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

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Windows 8 will be 'largely irrelevant' to traditional PC users: IDC
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