Windows 8 and 8.1 Forums


Windows 8 will be 'largely irrelevant' to traditional PC users: IDC

  1. #101


    Posts : 162
    windows 7


    Quote Originally Posted by Vertex View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ADRz View Post
    It is not "disliking the tiles". Anything that gets in the way of running Windows applications is an impediment, not an useful addition to the OS. But they also have very limited visual appeal. I do not buy Windows to tinker around. I buy Windows to support my applications. And this is what I want.
    Disliking the Metro can be divided into several different reasons depending on different people who has different tastes, likes and makes different reasons on their own. When I said "tiles thing" on my previous post, I was somehow refering to the Metro interface.

    Have you seen this video? That is what we don't like to happen.

    Systems Administrator Reacts to Windows 8 - YouTube
    Yes, I have seen the video. No wonder. The esthetic appeal of tiles is, of course, an individual thing. On the other hand, the difficulty that it imposes in getting to and running typical Windows applications is rather uncontroversial. Even Windows "boosters" such as Paul Thoreaut and others have noted that the experience is "jarring", to say the least.

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  2. #102


    Posts : 288
    Windows 7 Ultimate, Windows Developer Preview, Linux Mint 9


    You know, I'll be looking for more reactions from Windows 8 especially reactions made by authors and experts. Always good to get a larger idea on things.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  3. #103


    Posts : 162
    windows 7


    Quote Originally Posted by Vertex View Post
    You know, I'll be looking for more reactions from Windows 8 especially reactions made by authors and experts. Always good to get a larger idea on things.
    None of these experts is more of an expert than you are. Your decision to purchase Win8 and use it should depend on one factor only: does it make your work faster and better? If the answer to this is a "yes", then buy it. My answer to this is "No" and I believe that this would be the answer of many others, but not a definitive opinion for all users. If all one wants to do is look at Metro style weather apps, then Win8 may be the solution.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  4. #104


    Posts : 993
    Windows 8 pro Retail


    Meow......meow LoL
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  5. #105


    Posts : 5,707
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    Quote Originally Posted by ADRz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Coke Robot View Post
    Movies and games need to be in full screen for the full experience. That's what metro, full screen apps do. It's a new experience to interact with data and information. When I'm in metro IE, it's just internet. Just internet and nothing else, that's what I'm focused on for the moment. It's a somewhat different experience I'd say. During that time, I have the Zune Player running full screen in Desktop and with one click, I can change songs and in one click, I'm right back to IE. Just like if I was in Desktop mode the entire time.

    Well, uninstallers are in subfolders in the start menu, so you can either uninstall a program from there or in Control Panel. I recently installed EasyBCD to make a portable Windows 7 flashdrive and since I don't use EasyBCD often, I uninstalled it right from the Start Screen in two clicks. If I were to do that in the start menu, it would had taken me three or four clicks.

    But really, if research coming to and from Microsoft stating that most average users don't tidy their menu up, then something needs changing. With Windows 7, a main feature of Windows was changed, the taskbar. And in effect, a main feature of Windows killed another major feature of Windows, the start menu. People don't use it much other than the MFU programs list and to go to Control Panel or Computer. Jumplists and the Taskbar killed the use of it.

    Microsoft did make a separate button from Desktop to Start Screen, the Start button.

    I'd be disappointed if IT pros dismiss 8 because of the Start Screen. It has such benefits and such potential over the start menu. Ever since I've been using Windows 7, I've literally no icons on my desktop ever since. It's either on my Taskbar or start menu. But what's in my all programs list are generally programs I don't use with frequency. With Windows 8, I can keep my desktop unmolested and have a different screen that has ALL my programs and apps. I can always know what I have installed. With 7, I sometimes look at my all programs list and wonder when I installed that program or uninstalled it. It's literally a commanding interface to launch whatever app or program I have on my machine quickly.

    There's so much to the Start Screen that enterprise users can take advantage of, they just need to know how first.

    I disagree with the devil vista, it sucks. Sure, there were things about it that made it better than xp, but then again, look at how long xp was used in the enterprise sector, for some, that's literally a good decade. vista's performance out of the box was barely better than a box of poo. I've come across many a system with vista, and the common theme is just horrid performance. Its registry structure gets easily fragmented, causing system slowness. You can defrag the hard drive all you want, it's the registry issues that plagued that operating system of hell. You could tweak vista all you want, but you'd need to spend hours doing so. Either that, or you have to spend quite some time updating it. Most people don't want to tweak an operating system when they're not even sure about how to use it or what to do. A good operating system doesn't require tweaking of vista proportions, that might be why enterprises skipped vista, way too much work for little gain. And also, there were the driver and software installing issues, but I've gone enough about the devil vista.

    Once you gain knowledge on how to use the Start Screen to its fullest and know what went into the making of, you get an appreciation of it. That's what I think.
    Your insistence not to see the obvious problems with the Start Screen befuddles me. In fact, in the Start Screen, a system with lots of programs ends with an unending series of grey boxes each containing a tiny icon that defy any decent organization. You think that this is an advance in the state of computing????

    Another inaccurate statement: "Movies and games need to be in full screen for the full experience". The full experience depends on the user but movies can always be windowed. There is hardly a player that cannot be windowed. In fact, there is nothing in Win7 stopping you from running a video (or life feed of TV or movie) while working on a document. Many games can be windowed as well. It is the programmer and the user that decides in this case, not the OS.

    It is supercilious to state that these Metro apps can only be experienced full screen. Hello? What is in these little apps that demands the full expanse of my 30''-inch screen??? Not even the most demanding application requires this and I must have it for a weather app? I can certainly understand this happening in tablets and smartphones but in a desktop windowing OS???? I believe that from the point of view of a user intending to do real work, this is a definitive hindrance. If you cannot see it, too bad.

    Now, it is not only me that says that Windows 8 would be a bust. In fact, now most predict that it will. More definitive opinions would be forthcoming after the release of the beta but I know that MS is not reneging on the Start Screen nor is it making it optional. I believe that this would be Microsoft's undoing and I will watch it with great sorrow. Microsoft was right to attempt all the things that it did with Vista. I adopted Vista from the very beginning and despite the driver problems, the system matured. Win7 is simply Vista streamlined. Then MS abandoned all the great work in creating a compelling interface to go hunt tablets. This would prove a disaster of great proportions.

    My guess is that six months after the release of Win8, MS will release a renovated Win8 making metro optional. As it should. Tablets and smartphones require different solutions than the desktop. You cannot take a system designed to run a very rich computing environment, slap a Metro screen to it and get it to tablets. This is a disaster on both sides: it dumbs down the desktop and overreaches in the tablet. This is a disaster in the making.

    MS should have adopted WP7 to tablets. Had it done so, it would already be selling them and it may have had some good success against Honeycomb. Now, the tired and over-exposed Metro will have to go against the successor of ICS and this would not be pretty. Sorry, anyway you look at it, ICS is more compelling than Metro in many ways. By the time Win8 tablets come out, they would not even be dealing with ICS but with the successor of ICS!!! It all spells unending trouble for Microsoft.

    MS should have had a simple strategy: (a) Get Win8 to be a compelling general computing OS benefiting from Apple's stumble with OSX Lion and (b) it should have adapted WP7 for tablets. But as Mark Twain remarked: "the problem with common sense is that is not common enough".
    Your insistence to not see the benefits of the Start Screen befuddles me. Your statement saying that the Start Screen can't be organized isn't true. Of course, the DP doesn't offer built in organization of the Screen, but it's A DEVELOPER PREVIEW BUILD, NOT A BETA, NOT A RELEASE CANDIDATE. You can still organize apps and programs rather easily based on what you use most in the locations of the screen where you can easily click on. Even then, the Start Screen offers more apps and programs in one view than the menu. I looked into this and and by default with how I set my Start Screen, I have 44 apps and programs in one view without scrolling. By default in 7, you only get like 24. Even with the Start menu taking up a whole fraction of the screen, you still only get 38 programs without scrolling. If I configure my Start Screen to have smaller tiles, I can fit 50. Benefit. Thought that should be said.

    I know videos and games can be windowed, but why? I don't want to watch Inception in 1080p in a window, it ruins the experience. I can play solitaire windowed, and can play Hitman windowed, but why? It's not the same full screen.

    You obviously haven't experienced a true, metro app. You'd need to use a Windows Phone to do that. There are apps for that phone that would translate better to a 30" monitor that the weather app. Besides, a metro app isn't the built in weather app. It's what the designer and developer do with the information they want to release with the given screen estate.

    I'm going to assume you don't keep windows within desktop maximized.

    I'm not going to base the success of a new operating system based on some cynics' views of it based upon a build of Windows that is barely halfway through the process of becoming an RTM product. Cynics be damned. People said Windows 7 wouldn't do good since it's vista 2.0 and might bring the same hassles with vista on for a few more years. Well, the opposite happened. I don't if you read all the bad of 8, but I've read many an article with people and manufacturers being excited for Windows 8 and what it will offer.

    My guess is that people will have the initial resistance to change, but after a few months of it being out, people will enjoy it and all that if offers to users. Microsoft didn't abandon the desktop for desktop users, they might had for tablet users. They're gearing the desktop into a touch interface for tablet users. Of course the desktop will still be the ultimate multitasker.

    You're not the only person who suggests that Microsoft should had ported the Windows Phone 7 OS to tablets, in fact they got flack for that a while ago. Their response was that they don't believe consumers would want another tablet option that is running an operating system based off a phone OS. And they're right, at least I think so. Microsoft believes that if a user were to have a tablet, they should be able to do more than play angry birds or use fat booth or read ebooks. I find it silly to think that the ipad and android tablets are running phone OSes.

    Sorry, but people and manufacturers are getting fed up with OS fragmentation of android. ICS may be great and all, but a Windows 8 tablet is more compelling, ONCE YOU GET TO KNOW IT. Sounds common enough.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  6. #106


    Posts : 5,707
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    Quote Originally Posted by ADRz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Lonewolf View Post
    I have to agree with ADRz. seems that Microsoft is gearing itself for the tablet revolution, and forgetting
    that is was the desktop PC that buttered their bread. Also, for the last 1.5+ decades it's been a point and click
    world. I've been using the DP version since it has been released, and got bored REAL quick with the tiles and used
    MetroTweakUI to rid myself of them. And going by a business mindset (Which makes the most purchases of Windows)
    I personality cannot see a touch centric operating system being a big splash with them. Has anyone else in here been getting flashbacks of Windows ME besides myself?
    Not at all, it is hardly only you. In fact, most business analysts see a disaster much more severe than Windows Me and Vista. I thought that one analyst put it very well when he said that "Microsoft forgets that we do not buy Windows because it is Windows; we buy Windows because we want to run Windows applications"!!! Right on the mark. Anything that makes us more difficult to run Windows applications would flop in the marketplace.

    Somehow "Metro" has enchanted Microsoft. That Metro has been rejected by users does not seem to register. Nothing that sported this interface was ever a success for Microsoft. Windows Media, Zune and WP7 were commercial disasters. My own view is that "tiles" have limited visual appeal. If Microsoft wants to put together a compelling UI, it should look at ICS (Android 4). But whatever this is, it should never make it more difficult to use Windows applications, it should make it easier.
    You seem to think anything metro designed is a failure but yet you don't actually see what caused them to fail. Media Center isn't used by Windows 7 users, it hasn't caught on well. The Zune player was a great device compared to the ipod, but no one knew what a Zune was. The Windows Phone 7 hasn't caught on because carriers are more interested in peddling android crap 2.xx phones for 50 dollars. It's not that metro design is killing it, people like it. It's different and cleanly designed. But then again....that's some people.
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  7. #107


    Posts : 5,707
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    Quote Originally Posted by ADRz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave76 View Post
    I've been debating on whether to post in this thread, the little guy on my shoulder prevailed.

    Disclaimer:
    Every individual has the right to their own preferences.
    It would be a truly boring world if every person had/liked/used the same things.
    We each have the ability to decide what we want to use, no explanation required.

    Can you imagine being the person responsible for making 'everyone' happy with everything or even one thing?
    It is simply impossible.
    /Disclaimer.

    When I first D/L'ed Win8, didn't know what to think of the Metro Start page, of coarse didn't like it at first glance.
    Decided to give it a try, looked around to find ways to make it 'my own'.
    MS will, according to a few of the usual info sites, make Win8 customizable, including the Metro Start page.
    Now, I like it and will use it, make it my own. At some point may try to disable it, it's an option that I don't think will happen but still an option.

    Haven't spent much time tweaking it, as the WDP will expire.
    Attachment 2982
    Later, when you can change the image of the Icons or when they have something other than the green background, it will look better.
    Size, groups, background, etc. will be customizable.

    Currently using Fences on my Windows7 desktop. Only gadgets are clock, calendar, and weather, with a double click anywhere on the desktop and my most used app icons appear organized in scrollable groups.
    Double click again and only three gadgets are on the clean desktop.
    This may not be for everyone, and that is the great thing about Windows, you can make it yours.

    If you don't like some features in Windows 8, you can change them through windows. If you can't change everything you want, someone will have an app that can.

    We have seen people try and change Windows 7 to look and act like XP.
    After a point Windows 7 will not be able to function any more.
    There is only so much you can do to an OS before it starts to fail.

    Try Windows 8, change what you can, if it starts to have issues and you don't like how your OS looks or functions, you obviously have the option to move to another OS.

    As far as finding people here that like Windows 8 and the Metro UI, well, it is a Windows 8 Forum.

    Let's all accept that we don't have to like the same things.
    No one seems to to be convincing anyone to change their opinions, at least we can agree on that.
    First of all, let me tell you that I fully understand that all of us have different likes and dislikes. I appreciate your thoughts and input. Now here are my thoughts and the reply applies to Vertex as well.

    First of all, my point of departure is not "living with Win8". My point of departure is "why do I want Win8". If I have "to live with Win8", then I would surely try to adapt the system, customize it and increase its efficiency. I need to decide if I want it at all and if I would like to install it in a good number of machines in my business. My current examination of Win8 tells me that this is system is poorly (if at all) adopted to my needs. Thus, the answer so far is that I do not need and I do not desire Win8. And I will explain.

    You show only one pane of the Start Screen. If your system even closely resembles mine, scrolling to the right will only reveal panes upon panes of grey boxes with little icons. Yes or no? These icons defy any reasonable organization. Now, how is this remotely more efficient than the current Start menu? it is not. it is the usual presentation of apps in smartphones and tablets. It may make sense in these devices, but it does not make sense in the desktop. Not by a long shot. (Parenthetically, a number of Android smartphone and tablet vendors, have found a answer to this that resembles "Fences". Samsung's "Touchwiz" allows you to create "folders" on the screen where you can assemble similar type apps. That allows for more reasonable organization). So, the moment you depart the first pane of the Start Screen, there is simply chaos.

    Then, you have the fact that the only reason for running this Start Screen is to run these minor apps, the Metro-style apps. Why on earth would I want to do this? We run these apps in smartphones and tablets because we are sort of resources; we are short of processing power, we are short of storage and we are short of memory. Why would you even want to run a Metro-style app on your desktop? There dozens of desktop applications that can provide a far deeper and more impressive computing experience. Then, these Metro-style apps are full screen. Why would I need to run little apps created to provide a decent output in limited resources full screen in a heavy-duty 64-bit quad-processor machine with a 30''-inch screen????? I need this about as well as a hole in the head. Thus, Metro-style apps: (a) provide a worse output and experience than desktop and browser apps; (b) defy multitasking and (c) cannot be windowed. Thus, the last thing any desktop user wants are these Metro-style apps.

    Does Win8 has some minor improvements under the hood? Yes, it does. But in systems like mine, they are totally dispensable. In my various powerful systems, the better use of memory and other resources will not even be noticed.

    I still remain to be convinced of any potential advantages in Win8. I do not see here anything that I like, at least for the desktops and laptops under my care.

    Now, how about tablets? I really do not care about tablets that much, but knowing Metro quite well and knowing ICS, I would say that the latter is better (and does all the things Metro does). In a year from now, MS would be confronting not just ICS-based tablets, but tablets running the successor of ICS!!! My guess is that Metro would be found seriously wanting against these devices. Unfortunately, I foresee that MS's abandonment of the desktop to try and chase the tablet market would only result in disaster. I hope I am wrong.
    I was actually going to ask you this, how long have you sat down and used Windows 8?

    As for reasonable organization, I have reasonable organization that doesn't need to be grouped as of now in folders or in groups. It's organized based on how often I use said apps and programs. The ones I use most go from left to right on my screen. Reasonably organized for me. The Start Screen as of now is simple chaos to you, but you do know Windows 8 hasn't been RTMed yet, right? I mean, I think there might be a little more to discover.

    Hmm, 10 years ago, we had cell phones that were 2 square inched screens with only being able to call and maybe text. Now, they're 4.3 inch diagonal screens with a gigahertz or faster processor with either 512 MB or 1 gig of RAM. A phone for crying out loud. Apps may be running on phones that are short of something, but that's probably an android phone...

    Why would I need to use gadgets that suck some of my system resource to only be gaudy little things that look like skinned Windows Media Players from 2003 if they only show bits of information? Why would I use my dual core processor with six gigs of RAM with a 17 inch monitor just so I can have a stack on the left side of my desktop cluttered with little widgets? I don't know.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  8. #108


    Posts : 5,707
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    Quote Originally Posted by Dave76 View Post
    I've been debating on whether to post in this thread, the little guy on my shoulder prevailed.

    Disclaimer:
    Every individual has the right to their own preferences.
    It would be a truly boring world if every person had/liked/used the same things.
    We each have the ability to decide what we want to use, no explanation required.

    Can you imagine being the person responsible for making 'everyone' happy with everything or even one thing?
    It is simply impossible.
    /Disclaimer.

    When I first D/L'ed Win8, didn't know what to think of the Metro Start page, of coarse didn't like it at first glance.
    Decided to give it a try, looked around to find ways to make it 'my own'.
    MS will, according to a few of the usual info sites, make Win8 customizable, including the Metro Start page.
    Now, I like it and will use it, make it my own. At some point may try to disable it, it's an option that I don't think will happen but still an option.

    Haven't spent much time tweaking it, as the WDP will expire.
    Attachment 2982
    Later, when you can change the image of the Icons or when they have something other than the green background, it will look better.
    Size, groups, background, etc. will be customizable.

    Currently using Fences on my Windows7 desktop. Only gadgets are clock, calendar, and weather, with a double click anywhere on the desktop and my most used app icons appear organized in scrollable groups.
    Double click again and only three gadgets are on the clean desktop.
    This may not be for everyone, and that is the great thing about Windows, you can make it yours.

    If you don't like some features in Windows 8, you can change them through windows. If you can't change everything you want, someone will have an app that can.

    We have seen people try and change Windows 7 to look and act like XP.
    After a point Windows 7 will not be able to function any more.
    There is only so much you can do to an OS before it starts to fail.

    Try Windows 8, change what you can, if it starts to have issues and you don't like how your OS looks or functions, you obviously have the option to move to another OS.

    As far as finding people here that like Windows 8 and the Metro UI, well, it is a Windows 8 Forum.

    Let's all accept that we don't have to like the same things.
    No one seems to to be convincing anyone to change their opinions, at least we can agree on that.
    I like the background, nice!
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  9. #109


    Posts : 5,707
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    Quote Originally Posted by Vertex View Post
    You are the most diehard defender of the Metro, I have seen on this forum. You keep repeating on saying the Start Screen has a good potential but respect what others view of it. Its not actually how many people view it even if you seem to be managing it well, as I said before, the first impression hugely affects user interest. I am comfortable with the Windows 7 Desktop now, and I don't even use the control panel to remove apps. I use Revo cause it takes out other junk left by uninstalling apps better than the regular uninstalling using the program's own uninstaller. Even without the Metro, MS could device a way to have users see which apps are not being used like a prompt that appears on the desktop every 60 days telling which are not frequenty used. Its even a bit safer if it would take users more than 2 clicks to remove an app which could be an essential one.

    You could view your apps on a different screen which is the Metro screen but still, when you had lots of programs installed, your Metro screen also gets littered by tiles of these apps and even their uninstallers, so how's that any better than the Desktop if it too can get cluttered?

    I also do not believe it is nessesary to have "full experience" on something as simple as watching the weather update that would only take minutes or even seconds. The Metro apps simple lack the minimize, maximize and close buttons. Very essential buttons there.

    The classic desktop will still win when it comes to multitasking. The only I know to close a Metro app was to try to come back to the Start screen using the Windows button and even with that I's not sure if that app is still running in the background, eating some of my resources.

    Microsoft did make a separate button from Desktop to Start Screen, the Start button.
    I don't understand what you meant with that.

    I know that if click on the bottom left corner of the Start button, it opens a mini Start Menu but never as effective and good as Windows 7 Start Menu. It has a Search function but that just opens a bar at the right that consumes a lot of space anway.

    If I had a 22 inch monitor, that would be great for working with many files. Lets say, I can tile 3 windowed apps side by side so I can see what's going on on each of them without having to minimize one after the other. Check this out, If I had a 22 inch monitor,it would have been great:

    Attachment 2979

    Of if I want to entertain myself while working on something, since this machine has a TV Tuner, I had Windows Media Center with live TV windowed on a smaller screen and also using a built in setting, WMC sits on top of other app windows. Rocking on with Mythbusters here. Man I wish I had a bigger monitor. It would have been so much better. That is the power of Desktop multitasking if used to greater extents. Its just not possible in the current design of the Metro.

    Attachment 2980
    That prompt you were talking about reminds me of the feature in xp that told you of unused icons. I have to say that yeah, if your Start Screen has many apps and programs in it, it would be cluttered. That's why you can unpin said apps or programs or uninstall them right from there. There's the Search function for Apps that Microsoft has been working on to group installed programs together. It's like with the Windows Phone 7, there's the Start Screen and Start Menu. The Start Screen has your customized frequently used apps while the Start Menu hosts all of your installed apps, including the ones you have on the Screen that you use most and apps that you use once in while.

    You can rest assured, those apps, once they're not in use, are suspended and don't use system resource. Which, that might need fixing to get Live updates on certain tiles.

    I was kidding around with the separate button between metro and desktop, the Start button!

    Multitasking is Windows. That is what made Windows 95 a gift from GOD, multitasking. As of now, you can do that with the metro apps. As of now, you can only snap about a third of the app on the desktop and in an app, you can only get Live preview thumbnails of your open programs on the Desktop. I'd wait and see if metro apps will do that, my guess is that they will.

    Really fast and off topic, you have a TV tuner and get the Discovery channel? Do you get that from Media Center or from a provider? I'm planning on ditching my boobtube TV and buy this gorgeous monitor and consolidate devices so that monitor will the the video of the TV and my stereo be the audio for it. All at the same time being the monitor for Windows.
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  10. #110


    Posts : 162
    windows 7


    First of all, let me tell you that I fully understand that all of us have different likes and dislikes. I appreciate your thoughts and input. Now here are my thoughts and the reply applies to Vertex as well.

    First of all, my point of departure is not "living with Win8". My point of departure is "why do I want Win8". If I have "to live with Win8", then I would surely try to adapt the system, customize it and increase its efficiency. I need to decide if I want it at all and if I would like to install it in a good number of machines in my business. My current examination of Win8 tells me that this is system is poorly (if at all) adopted to my needs. Thus, the answer so far is that I do not need and I do not desire Win8. And I will explain.

    You show only one pane of the Start Screen. If your system even closely resembles mine, scrolling to the right will only reveal panes upon panes of grey boxes with little icons. Yes or no? These icons defy any reasonable organization. Now, how is this remotely more efficient than the current Start menu? it is not. it is the usual presentation of apps in smartphones and tablets. It may make sense in these devices, but it does not make sense in the desktop. Not by a long shot. (Parenthetically, a number of Android smartphone and tablet vendors, have found a answer to this that resembles "Fences". Samsung's "Touchwiz" allows you to create "folders" on the screen where you can assemble similar type apps. That allows for more reasonable organization). So, the moment you depart the first pane of the Start Screen, there is simply chaos.

    Then, you have the fact that the only reason for running this Start Screen is to run these minor apps, the Metro-style apps. Why on earth would I want to do this? We run these apps in smartphones and tablets because we are sort of resources; we are short of processing power, we are short of storage and we are short of memory. Why would you even want to run a Metro-style app on your desktop? There dozens of desktop applications that can provide a far deeper and more impressive computing experience. Then, these Metro-style apps are full screen. Why would I need to run little apps created to provide a decent output in limited resources full screen in a heavy-duty 64-bit quad-processor machine with a 30''-inch screen????? I need this about as well as a hole in the head. Thus, Metro-style apps: (a) provide a worse output and experience than desktop and browser apps; (b) defy multitasking and (c) cannot be windowed. Thus, the last thing any desktop user wants are these Metro-style apps.

    Does Win8 has some minor improvements under the hood? Yes, it does. But in systems like mine, they are totally dispensable. In my various powerful systems, the better use of memory and other resources will not even be noticed.

    I still remain to be convinced of any potential advantages in Win8. I do not see here anything that I like, at least for the desktops and laptops under my care.

    Now, how about tablets? I really do not care about tablets that much, but knowing Metro quite well and knowing ICS, I would say that the latter is better (and does all the things Metro does). In a year from now, MS would be confronting not just ICS-based tablets, but tablets running the successor of ICS!!! My guess is that Metro would be found seriously wanting against these devices. Unfortunately, I foresee that MS's abandonment of the desktop to try and chase the tablet market would only result in disaster. I hope I am wrong.[/QUOTE]

    I was actually going to ask you this, how long have you sat down and used Windows 8?

    As for reasonable organization, I have reasonable organization that doesn't need to be grouped as of now in folders or in groups. It's organized based on how often I use said apps and programs. The ones I use most go from left to right on my screen. Reasonably organized for me. The Start Screen as of now is simple chaos to you, but you do know Windows 8 hasn't been RTMed yet, right? I mean, I think there might be a little more to discover.

    Hmm, 10 years ago, we had cell phones that were 2 square inched screens with only being able to call and maybe text. Now, they're 4.3 inch diagonal screens with a gigahertz or faster processor with either 512 MB or 1 gig of RAM. A phone for crying out loud. Apps may be running on phones that are short of something, but that's probably an android phone...

    Why would I need to use gadgets that suck some of my system resource to only be gaudy little things that look like skinned Windows Media Players from 2003 if they only show bits of information? Why would I use my dual core processor with six gigs of RAM with a 17 inch monitor just so I can have a stack on the left side of my desktop cluttered with little widgets? I don't know.[/QUOTE]

    First, I examined the WDP version for a few days. It was making my life more difficult, not easier

    First of all, the Start Screen is simply way inefficient in my 30-inch monitor. It all covers my secondary 21'-inch monitor. Dreadful. It is far easier to organize applications that I use in the taskbar and desktop (and far more visually appealing) than these grey boxes and scrolling for ever. Very inefficient

    Second, what do smartphones have to do with anything we are discussing here? Or is your contention that the Start Screen is such a huge innovation? (Well, it is not. The basic design goes back to 80's era shells and it does not even look as nice as those!!! It is just too old time!! Metro is actually retro; not to mention that the basic elements of the interface was in Windows Media for ever and only 1% of Windows users choose to use this application!!!. It has been in Zune for centuries and did not garner much support. So, why are you so keen on it????)

    The desktop gadgets suck resources? In a Sandybridge quad-core system with 16 GB of memory and SSDs, their presence it is not noticed!!! The great advantage of gadgets: You can very easily get to them. For a Metro app, if you work in the desktop, you need to switch to the Start Screen and then launch the app that takes the whole screen. When you exit, the app is suspended. The gadgets simply take 1/100th of my screen. One of my gadgets simply streams BBC radio. I can start it and stop it at a moment's notice. I do not have to switch screens. It is a tiny gadget. Why would I want a huge screen and multiple clicks to listen to BBC? It makes no sense whatsoever. I can bring many other examples.

    You are retrogressing, not progressing. You may have difficulty believing this, but if you have to do more work to obtain the same benefits, this is not progress.

    Why do you run Windows? Answer this. I run Windows not because it is Windows but because I want to run Windows applications. Period. Nothing more, nothing less. Anything that gets in the way, it is a problem, not a solution.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

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