Windows 8 and 8.1 Forums


Fragging wonderful: The truth about defragging your SSD

  1. #11


    Hafnarfjörður IS
    Posts : 4,376
    Linux Centos 7, W8.1, W7, W2K3 Server W10


    Quote Originally Posted by mikeytg View Post
    The reason fragmentation slows a disk is the fact that the rotation of the disk adds long delays when scattered pieces of a file must be assembled. An SSD does not have these physical delays, so fragmentation should not materially affect performance.

    If you still want, you can do an "old school" defrag -

    1. backup all files.
    2. erase all files.
    3. restore all files one by one.

    Hi there
    Quicker

    Back image up
    Restore -- NOT sector by Sector -- A sector by sector restore will preserve the original disc geometry and won't re-organise the files.

    Any decent backup program will do this.


    Actually if you read my previous post on Spinners -- If they have a large cache it doesn't matter too much if the computer has to pick up fragments from different parts of a spinner -- this I/O is done while you are working on OTHER tasks and is overlapped with the processing.

    Decent I/O algorithms also include a decent "pre-fetch" -- this is based on a history of the sort of tasks you do on your computer so the system "guesses" what pieces of data you will read next - these algorithms are basic to good OS design and work reasonably well - so that by the time you actually want to USE the data it's already available in the cache.

    If you are buying Spinners -- this is the SINGLE most important factor in decent performance - especially on laptops where the actual spinning RPM is slower than on desktops or large external USB drives. To save power laptop spinner speeds are often the low 5400 rpm one's so a decent cache is essential.

    Cheers
    jimbo

      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  2. #12


    Australia
    Posts : 716
    Windows 7 Ult Reatil & Win 8 Pro OEM


    I purchased my first Corsair SATA3 SSD in October 2011, and 4 more in March 2012 ... two for flagship and ditto for backup machine. I discussed this defrag issue extensively with Corsair Tech support. They informed me by email that their SSDs were designed to write/rewrite 20GB per day for up to 20 years. The guarantee was only for 3 years.

    They went on to say that with Trim enabled, combined with the inbuilt garbage collection in Corsair SSDs, that there was no need for any third party defragging apps.

    Even so for the purposes of hands on tests in July 2012 I purchased Condusiv Diskeeper 12, defragger for SSDs. It seemed to work for awhile but then data started to become corrupt or missing. Condusiv issued an update a few months later stating that they had received feedback similar to the issues I was having and stated that the defrag level had been too severe. Despite the update I still kept getting the same issues.

    At that point I stopped using Condusiv and have had no problems ever since. I have used all 5 SSDs continuously and frequently and they are all still running fine, with no noticeable difference in speed.

    Since the last 4 were purchased over a year and a half ago, there have been releases of later versions that are faster then my originals, but mine are so fast I haven't bothered to upgrade. Combine them with plenty of RAM, top end graphics cards, CPU and Mobos, and you won't look back.

    In every new machine I've built for other persons, installing SSD is standard issue.

    If anyone wants the latest info on endurance for SSDs this is a thread from a forum with 220 pages and 5,547 posts on the topic: SSD Write Endurance
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  3. #13


    Posts : 1,925
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    Quote Originally Posted by CountMike View Post
    Since there is no "Fragging" on SSDs I really did not expect that any defragging is needed. I'd rather see a way to force GC on them. In Win8 there is a way to force Trim but that does not do anything that Win has not already done and does not help any.
    TRIM does do something. TRIM is a command that initiates garbage collection of the drive, which will clean up sectors marked as deleted, but that the SSD has not yet "freed". So TRIM is precisely what you're looking for. TRIM is enabled by default in Windows 8, and runs once a week. It's part of the Windows Defrag tool, which does not defrag SSD's but instead it says "Optimize". This is basically just running TRIM.

    Quote Originally Posted by CountMike View Post
    On the other hand Win8 does not fragment HDDs almost at all.
    Yes, It does. But Windows 8 runs a defrag job automatically once a week by default. You can turn this off of course, and you will see that your drives will start becoming fragmented. Although I agree that Win8 does fragment less than XP did.

    Regarding SSD's, defragging is not generally needed. The vast majority of benefit from defragging is moving sectors closer together so they benefit from being read in the same order that the disk spins, without having to move the head around much. This is completely irrelevant with SSD's.

    However, Defragging does do a few things that are not specifically related to sector location. For instance, most advanced defraggers (ie, not what comes with the OS) can optimize the MFT, and shrink it if needed. It can also defragment unused space to reduce the size of directory trees. This helps to reduce the amount of work the computer has to do to sort the directory entries and find things.

    However, having said that, given the speed of SSD's in general, and the speed of CPU's in modern computers, and the amount of excess memory most of us have.. these benefits are probably so miniscule you won't even notice them on fast computers. On slow computers, with minimal memory, you *might* notice a small amount of benefit, but again, it's probably not worth it. It would be more cost effective to just add more memory to your computer.

    Despite the fact I *technically* say you can still get some benefit from defragging an SSD, I do not recommend doing so. And if you do, I'd only do it once a year at most.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  4. #14


    Australia
    Posts : 716
    Windows 7 Ult Reatil & Win 8 Pro OEM


    Hi Mystere. Am I reading you correctly that turning on the Optimize function in Win8 will only run the Trim function, and NOT do a conventional defrag? And if correct, how often would you recommend running it?

    When I run the command: fsutil behavior query DisableDeleteNotify

    It shows as: DisableDeleteNotify = 0

    Which means it's already enabled. Is this separate to running Optimze on a schedule?
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  5. #15


    Posts : 22,581
    64-bit Windows 10


    Quote Originally Posted by Mustang View Post
    Hi Mystere. Am I reading you correctly that turning on the Optimize function in Win8 will only run the Trim function, and NOT do a conventional defrag? And if correct, how often would you recommend running it?
    .
    Windows 8 will automatically only defrag HDD's and TRIM SSD's. No worries.

    Optimize Drives - Defrag HDD and TRIM SSD in Windows 8

    Optimize Drives Schedule - Change in Windows 8
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  6. #16


    Australia
    Posts : 716
    Windows 7 Ult Reatil & Win 8 Pro OEM


    Thanks Brink!
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  7. #17


    Posts : 87
    Windows 7 Pro 64


    Why is this still being discussed and reported on? When SSD became maisntream a few years ago everyone was in consneus that SSD don't need (and even suffer from) defragging. Everyone knew that W7+ have trim support built in taking care of maintenance (+what the SSD manufacturer builds in and provides with its own software)..and that was several years ago.

    what is the next news story, that the world is not flat?

    As for spinners: I'm someone who used Defraggler and other tools under XP because I was convinced that the XP drefragmentation wasn't as good (not sure if there actual is a difference). But starting with W7, I only use the OS defragmentation (default once per week).

    We are now one year into W8 and still discuss this topic and claim it to be news?
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  8. #18


    Adelaide
    Posts : 1,338
    Windows 7 Ultimate SP1 (64 bit), Linux Mint 17.1 MATE (64 bit)

    Interesting


    It was interesting that one of the programs did apparently improve the performance of his SSD.
    I can't see how that could happen though.

    As for HDDs, my OS partition only usually exhibits 2% - 3% after a couple of weeks of use (in W7).
    I did expect this, since I didn't create a separate partition for my Programs (unlike my previous installs over the last 12 years).
    AV updates seem to be the main offender.

    I defragged it last night and it was at 11%, after only ~ 1 week of use (since my previous defrag).

    I'm supposed to be receiving a "surplus" SSD in the next couple of weeks, so defragging my OS partition will be "a thing of the past".
    Last edited by lehnerus2000; 13 Oct 2013 at 07:52. Reason: Correction
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  9. #19


    Quote Originally Posted by HerrKaLeun View Post
    Why is this still being discussed and reported on? When SSD became maisntream a few years ago everyone was in consneus that SSD don't need (and even suffer from) defragging.
    Because SSD are not mainstream yet. To me, SSD is still a new technology, emerging in usage as prices for the drives goes down. There is still too much of a price difference for server drives and desktop drives with higher storage volumes in order to start yelling about mainstream.

    Sure, lower capacity SSD drives 128GB and 256GB are rapidly decreasing in price, but for 0,5 TB drives and above you are still sweating it at around and above 4 times the price compared to a SATA HDD.

    A 500GB HDD will cost you about $60 at Amazon

    A 500GB SSD will cost you about $300 or above...

    1TB SSD above $500

    That is not comparable prices.
    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

    All in all, what this thread is basically about, is optimizing storage. Now, defragmentation as such is a way to optimize storage that may not be relevant for SSD drives, however, other technologies, like TRIM mentioned above, is. And we will see this coming. As OLD tech becomes obsolete (defrag), we will see NEW tech rise to claim it can optimize storage. This is in no way a bad thing. I bet lots of people are thinking about whether SSD drives can have their storage logic enhanced. This will eventually lead to commercial products with that as focus. Now, if that is a mere theoretical gain in milliseconds or not, remains to be seen.
    Last edited by Coram Daes; 13 Oct 2013 at 05:45.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  10. #20


    Hafnarfjörður IS
    Posts : 4,376
    Linux Centos 7, W8.1, W7, W2K3 Server W10


    Quote Originally Posted by Coram Daes View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by HerrKaLeun View Post
    Why is this still being discussed and reported on? When SSD became maisntream a few years ago everyone was in consneus that SSD don't need (and even suffer from) defragging.
    Because SSD are not mainstream yet. To me, SSD is still a new technology, emerging in usage as prices for the drives goes down. There is still too much of a price difference for server drives and desktop drives with higher storage volumes in order to start yelling about mainstream.

    Sure, lower capacity SSD drives 128GB and 256GB are rapidly decreasing in price, but for 0,5 TB drives and above you are still sweating it at around and above 4 times the price compared to a SATA HDD.

    A 500GB HDD will cost you about $60 at Amazon

    A 500GB SSD will cost you about $300 or above...

    1TB SSD above $500

    That is not comparable prices.
    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

    All in all, what this thread is basically about, is optimizing storage. Now, defragmentation as such is a way to optimize storage that may not be relevant for SSD drives, however, other technologies, like TRIM mentioned above, is. And we will see this coming. As OLD tech becomes obsolete (defrag), we will see NEW tech rise to claim it can optimize storage. This is in no way a bad thing. I bet lots of people are thinking about whether SSD drives can have their storage logic enhanced. This will eventually lead to commercial products with that as focus. Now, if that is a mere theoretical gain in milliseconds or not, remains to be seen.
    Hi there.

    In actual practice with cheap RAM available there's a lot to be said for actually having the MAIN OS bootable in ROM (or "Flashable ROM" when you install products / applications) and merely have things like Disks (whether SSD's or Spinners) just to hold Non persistent data such as scratch files, work areas, paging areas.

    People are already getting used to "Custom Roms" when they mess around with their phones etc -- .

    It would be a while before this type of technology becomes mainstream but it would mean that Disk storage would only be used for User data (Music etc), Backup / Archive / scratch / temporary OS files like paging -- None of these would need ANY SORT of optimisation that the user would actually benefit from -- paging etc is re-created as required anyway and things like Music don't change much and are essentially READ ONLY and don't need super fast access in the first place.

    Cheers
    jimbo
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Fragging wonderful: The truth about defragging your SSD
Related Threads
Defragging SSD Hybrid in Drivers & Hardware
I googled SSD Hybrid Defrag and read some of the answers on 'to defrag or not defrag' - there seems to be two minds on this. 1. Do not defrag the Hybrid at all, the SSD section is a virtual drive that automatically stores the files, progs that you use the most for hi speed access. Any attempt...
Hello, Since this is the chillout room, just wanted to share some stuff. This forum is so great, and members here are so helpful and i really wanna thank you all. i had a problem with some bsod crashing and debugging and thanks to efforts of a Microsoft most valuable professional it was...
About Defragging in Performance & Maintenance
at what percent do i need to defrag on my windows 8?
My journey into hell began about two months ago when I purchased a new HP laptop computer with Windows 8 preinstalled. The machine was fast, worked great and was cheap. It has a quad core CPU, 8 gigabytes of Ram with AMD Radeon 7640G graphics that can use up to 4 gigabytes for video processing....
Error defragging Windows 8.1 in Performance & Maintenance
I posted this on the Microsoft forums, but maybe i'll receive better support here. (they're no help unfortunately...) When I try to defrag my hard drive I receive the following error: C:\WINDOWS\system32>defrag c: Microsoft Drive Optimizer Copyright (c) 2013 Microsoft Corp. Invoking...
Ok, hey guys, I am new and the only person who's seen my page so far is Brink and he seems like he is watching every post. Is he watching us?
Windows 8 And The Truth About Software Wars -- InformationWeekWindows 8 And The Truth About Software Wars - windows Blog
Eight Forums Android App Eight Forums IOS App Follow us on Facebook