Windows 8 and 8.1 Forums


8.1 Evaluation from Windows Secrets Newsletter

  1. #51


    Tropical Island Pair a Dice
    Posts : 3,030
    Windows 8.1 Pro x64/ Windows 7 Ult x64


    Quote Originally Posted by djsigma View Post
    Your attention is taken away momentarily anyway, unless you can look through your Start menu and debug sub-routines at the same time.

    And as for moot point, the whole whining about no Start menu is moot precisely because there are third party tools that do the job. Windows users have always had to use third party tools to do things that Windows could not do, or that do things better than the built-in options. I've never heard so much ridiculous whining about such a non-issue - and from people who are still using the OS anyway it seems! Folks who hate it enough to whine about something A YEAR after it was released, lol, but haven't quite got the courage of their convictions to dump it and use something else. If I was that mad about something, the first thing I'd do is dump it.

    A: "I hate the iPhone, it sucks! Apple need to fix it cos they don't understand their customers at all!"
    B: "Oh yeah? What phone do you use then if you hate the iPhone so much?"
    A: "iPhone."
    B: "................"

    ^^That's a large proportion of the Windows 8 hate posse in a nutshell, haha.
    Well stated.

    I don't know anyone, or heard of anyone, that can focus on an open window while opening the Win7 style menu to open another program. If you have several program windows open, you can't focus on more than one at a time, you can glance back and forth.
    When you open the Win7 start menu you focus on it for a few seconds, open a program, then focus on it or another program/window.
    When you open Win8 start screen you focus on it for a few seconds, open a program, then focus on it or another program/window.

    If you prefer the Win7 style menu, that's your prerogative, but I can't agree that Win8 start screen takes anyones focus away from their work more than a Win7 style start menu.
    I use the desktop +98%, have always pinned most used programs to the task bar, use a program dock to have quick access to other programs I regularly use (and still do this now), I consider the Win8 start screen another dock.

    A large percentage of advanced users have always customized their desktop, if they can't get it the way they want with Windows options then they use third party apps.
    When MS adds too many programs/options they get sued for being a monopoly/unfair trade practices.
    It is not possible to have every conceivable option available for every single user. If/when they try, they get complaints about a 'bloated OS', they will never be able to please everyone.

    Try the new OS, customize it the way you want, use third party programs if you need/want. If you still don't like it, use a previous version or other OS. Choice is a good thing.
    When at work use what is provided, use other programs if needed/desired, if they are not allowed then lobby to get them approved.

      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  2. #52


    Posts : 1,925
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post
    No I need it to be arranged horizontally, with one above the other. Side by side is no good because the data I'm usually dealing with very wide and not very deep.

    (And my current work laptop, which is too recent for them to fork out to get me a new one, has the old-school 1280x800 screen resolution, it doesn't have enough pixels for Windows 8 to Snap side-by-side anyway; I know 8.1 is better but still not sure if it supports Snap on that resolution?)
    So you are using hardware that is unsupported and inadequate for your job, and you blame the OS. Nice.

    In any event, Adobe Reader is still free and can be installed just fine.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  3. #53


    Posts : 1,925
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    Quote Originally Posted by Jf1450 View Post
    My point exactly. I couldn't care less about a click count. If I am 10 levels deep in a program debugging subroutines I don't want or need my attention or thought process broken momentarily. It takes much longer than a moment to get your head back into it once diverted.
    I've heard this argument before, and it's frankly it makes no logical sense. It's one of those made up arguments people love to "stick to their guns" about, even though it makes no logical sense.

    If you're going into the start menu to launch a new program, your attention is *ALREADY* broken from what you're doing. You can't keep your attention on what you're doing and then go looking for an app 10 levels deep in your start menu at the same time. It's simply not humanly possible. Your attention is diverted regardless.

    The start screen opens up and returns you exactly where you were, without changing any of your selections or focused items...
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  4. #54


    Posts : 959
    Windows 8.1, 10


    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere View Post
    So you are using hardware that is unsupported and inadequate for your job, and you blame the OS. Nice.
    The hardware is totally adequate to do my job in any version of Windows from XP to 7, so how is that not the fault of the OS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere View Post
    In any event, Adobe Reader is still free and can be installed just fine.
    Well assuming the corporate decision makers get it right (by no means guaranteed), then yes.

    But it's only because Adobe currently haven't gone "Metro-only", that their product is better for business use.

    Which is a very good reason for software developers to keep developing desktop versions of products, especially software or utilities that people use for real work/ "content creation" etc. And if developers haven't the resources to support two streams of development at once (look at how long it's taken Mozilla to get anywhere near a Metro version of Firefox), developers will need to keep their focus on keeping their desktop versions up to date, because as it stands Metro is so inadequate for doing work, so people will keep looking for desktop apps.

    But this is surely bad for Microsoft who must desperately want developers to add decent Metro apps to the Windows Store... but they've shot themselves in the foot with the current Metro.

    8.1 sounds like it's a step in the right direction, but there's still a fair way to go.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  5. #55


    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jf1450 View Post
    My point exactly. I couldn't care less about a click count. If I am 10 levels deep in a program debugging subroutines I don't want or need my attention or thought process broken momentarily. It takes much longer than a moment to get your head back into it once diverted.
    I've heard this argument before, and it's frankly it makes no logical sense. It's one of those made up arguments people love to "stick to their guns" about, even though it makes no logical sense.

    If you're going into the start menu to launch a new program, your attention is *ALREADY* broken from what you're doing. You can't keep your attention on what you're doing and then go looking for an app 10 levels deep in your start menu at the same time. It's simply not humanly possible. Your attention is diverted regardless.

    The start screen opens up and returns you exactly where you were, without changing any of your selections or focused items...
    I beg to differ with you, MysterE=mc˛! It is now possible with a recently developed technique for a neurosurgeon to surgically separate the hemispheres of one's brain to be able to think in stereo and to see stereoscopically. Therefore, it is possible that a user can work on two subjects simultaneously.

    Here is living proof....

    Lizard Eye Trick - YouTube

    And so can this one.....

    Chameleon Eyes - YouTube

    Of course I don't have videos of them working at a workstation, but you get the gist I'm quite sure.

    Here's an exercise users can do to see how far they can diverge their eyes for stereoscopic viewing without the surgery. (WARNING: Very Cheezy)

    How Far Can You Diverge Your Eyes? - YouTube

    I'm awaiting your comeback on this one, MysterE=mc˛!
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  6. #56


    Posts : 1,925
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    Lol... I will only remind you that looking at more than one thing is not the same thing as concentrating on more than one thing.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  7. #57


    Posts : 219
    Windows 8.1 Pro 64 Bit


    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jf1450 View Post
    My point exactly. I couldn't care less about a click count. If I am 10 levels deep in a program debugging subroutines I don't want or need my attention or thought process broken momentarily. It takes much longer than a moment to get your head back into it once diverted.
    I've heard this argument before, and it's frankly it makes no logical sense. It's one of those made up arguments people love to "stick to their guns" about, even though it makes no logical sense.

    If you're going into the start menu to launch a new program, your attention is *ALREADY* broken from what you're doing. You can't keep your attention on what you're doing and then go looking for an app 10 levels deep in your start menu at the same time. It's simply not humanly possible. Your attention is diverted regardless.

    The start screen opens up and returns you exactly where you were, without changing any of your selections or focused items...
    This is not at all true. I liken it to the difference between walking all the way into a room to get something, vs staying in the room you are in and just glancing into the other room to accomplish what you want. This is really a taste thing, but for those of us who work on our machines, sometimes with 50 plus windows and putty sessions open, we are not wrong for finding this to be un-intuitive. And if it is perfectly intuitive for you, that is just great, and by all means keep enjoying that greatness.. We are not wrong for feeling the way we feel about it. It is a subjective thing. Which is why giving us the option to choose, would have been such a dandy idea.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  8. #58


    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere View Post
    Lol... I will only remind you that looking at more than one thing is not the same thing as concentrating on more than one thing.
    Oh....Then that surgery would be a waste of money, wouldn't it?!! Well, back to the drawing board as they say!
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  9. #59


    Posts : 103
    Windows 8.1 Pro with Media Center (64 bit)


    Quote Originally Posted by musiclover7 View Post
    It is a subjective thing. Which is why giving us the option to choose, would have been such a dandy idea.
    Why is it an issue for you though? That's the bit I don't get.

    In Windows 7, I needed some way to mount ISOs. Windows couldn't do it natively, so I had to find a third party app to do it. I found a free piece of software called Virtual CloneDrive, installed it, it worked great - job done.

    So your issue in Windows 8 is that the full screen equivalent of the Start menu takes your attention away from what you're doing. I'd say that you have 3 possible solutions: -

    1. Pin shortcuts to the software you need to use when you're working to the taskbar.

    2. Create a toolbar in the taskbar and place shortcuts to all your work software in that, then shove it up one end so it acts like a mini Start menu just for those programs.

    3. Install Start8, Classic Shell, or one of the other Start menu replacements.

    Does that not solve your problem in the same way that installing Virtual CloneDrive in Windows 7 solved mine? If not, why not?

    I understand that some people are annoyed with Microsoft's design decision, but then if you can replace that functionality with something else that works just as well, what is the problem? The "real" problem, rather than a hypothetical one, I mean.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  10. #60


    Posts : 1,925
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    Quote Originally Posted by musiclover7 View Post
    This is not at all true. I liken it to the difference between walking all the way into a room to get something, vs staying in the room you are in and just glancing into the other room to accomplish what you want.
    It's not though. There is no significant difference in effort between the two, if anything, the menu is more effort because menus are harder to maneuver and require you to pause, select, pause, select, etc.. You aren't physically getting up and walking into another room. We're not talking about merely glancing at something. We're talking about action, and concentration to accomplish a task.

    I can just imagine how you would handle something like MacOS's Spaces, or Linux's Virtual Desktops. Oh my gosh, my screen changed.. what am I going to do?

    How do you handle it when a full screen application opens? That must be so jarring for you? How do you drive a car when the terrain completely changes all the time? How do you watch TV when the scenes keep totally changing every few minutes?

    Yes, I am being sarcastic... If you cannot handle such things, you probably shouldn't be using a computer. But we DO in fact know you can handle such things, because you do so every day with other, similar things, which you seem to have no problem with, even things that require concentration, like driving.

    Quote Originally Posted by musiclover7 View Post
    This is really a taste thing, but for those of us who work on our machines, sometimes with 50 plus windows and putty sessions open, we are not wrong for finding this to be un-intuitive. And if it is perfectly intuitive for you, that is just great, and by all means keep enjoying that greatness.. We are not wrong for feeling the way we feel about it. It is a subjective thing. Which is why giving us the option to choose, would have been such a dandy idea.
    And yet you can have 50 windows open that switch between without even thinking. The start screen is *JUST ANOTHER WINDOW*. What's so special about it that makes you completely lose the ability to think when you use it?

    The problem is that you are trying to use an invalid argument to support your personal preference. And invalid arguments will always have people pointing out how invalid they are. I get that you just don't like it. And there's nothing I can say that will change that. But if you keep arguing things that just don't make any sense, then you're going to keep getting argument.

    The valid argument here is that you just don't like it. And maybe, yes, your concentration is even more interrupted because when you go to the start screen, all you can think about is how much you hate it... But I can make the same argument about the start menu in my case. I hate it, and when I have to use it on Windows 7, it's annoying and interrupts my concentration. I don't sit here and try to make up scientific excuses to explain my personal preference.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

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