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Microsoft COO Kevin Turner refuses to lose

  1. #31


    Posts : 1,925
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo45 View Post
    Ms needs to realize it's come up with a Lemon -- and it needs either a total re-think or a complete re-work to fix it --the desktop IS NOT GOING AWAY and there are even signs of a slight revival in the laptop market for Q3/Q4 this year as people discover the limitations of tablets and find they really do need something a bit more suited to their purposes.
    Apparently, you aren't familiar with Microsoft's track record. You could have made the same arguments about the releases of Windows NT 3.1, .NET 1.0, The Xbox, Windows CE, Windows Mobile, Windows Phone, etc.. etc.. etc.. the list goes on. Microsoft's first few release of any product are always expected to be a "work in progress" and it will eventually get to where it becomes profitable.

    Microsoft does, on occasion, cancel projects that it can't find a path to success for, such as the infamous MS Bob, Hailstorm, WinFS, etc...

    You simply cannot say any given MS product is a failure based on the first few releases. Microsoft has historically released products with a subset of the entire feature set they intend to bring out. Anyone that buys into the failure hype will have to re-evaluate their stance in a few years.

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  2. #32


    Posts : 302
    Windows 7 on the desktop, Windows 8 Surface Pro mobile


    Quote Originally Posted by Vertex View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by chrisa View Post
    I pretty much agree with your assessment and really lay the blame at the feet of one person, Steve Ballmer.
    Let us not forget that wacko Ballmer alone is not the only one who makes critical decisions done inside Micro$oft. They also have a board of directors that most of us can't name at all that do take part in their decisions but many of us would look at the frontman, Ballmer as the main guy to blame. I'm convinced that the man is nuts and delusional after his statements but why hasn't anybody within M$ who is more sane than he is do something to the drop the weight that is making them sink at the moment? Or maybe the reason is that most of Micro$oft's executive elite is delusional on this direction they wanted to push into and those that do think differently, might have chosen to keep silent than to be burned alive like witches on a stake. I'm sure Microsoft people at ground level acknowledge that this is not going as good as planned but those on the top fail to publicly acknowledge what really goes on and insist on something that right now produce not even remotely close to the best of harvest.
    He's IS the one that sets the tone and direction... which with his 'devices and services company' codeword it has now been outed to mean 'COPY APPLE. FAST.'. Copy their Devices. Copy their Services. Nothing Else Matters. Structure us like them so we can make the big bux!

    That is Microsoft's Strategy. And its pure, epic fail.
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  3. #33


    Posts : 5,360
    7/8/ubuntu/Linux Deepin


    MS are going for the cloud stuff big time. More so than Apple perhaps - not sure what Tim is up to there.
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  4. #34


    Posts : 142
    Win 7 Pro x64


    Quote Originally Posted by chrisa View Post
    He's IS the one that sets the tone and direction... which with his 'devices and services company' codeword it has now been outed to mean 'COPY APPLE. FAST.'. Copy their Devices. Copy their Services. Nothing Else Matters. Structure us like them so we can make the big bux!

    That is Microsoft's Strategy. And its pure, epic fail.

    I don't understand the strategy either. Microsoft has had a stranglehold on the PC/desktop/server market for many years. We're talking about an enterprise that nets Microsoft billions of dollars in profit each year, and there are few, if any, competitors out there who have even the slightest chance of cutting into even the smallest percentage of those profits. So why the fascination with getting into a new area currently dominated by Apple and Android?

    It can be nothing more than greed....

    Why not just stick with what you do best and let the other companies do their thing? Microsoft doesn't have a single threat from anyone when it comes to the PC market, so why are they risking destroying what they have dominated for so many years? Is it really that important to them to have a monopoly on the entire electronics market? Its absurd thinking.

    Its getting to the point where I really hope Microsoft goes bankrupt within the next 5 years. When greed becomes more important than making quality products for your customers its time for that company to go away.
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  5. #35


    Adelaide
    Posts : 1,338
    Windows 7 Ultimate SP1 (64 bit), Linux Mint 17.1 MATE (64 bit)


    Quote Originally Posted by SIW2 View Post
    MS are going for the cloud stuff big time. More so than Apple perhaps - not sure what Tim is up to there.
    Maybe the NSA has put the kibosh on that plan.
    Why PRISM kills the cloud | Computerworld Blogs
    Microsoft kills the enterprise cloud | Computerworld Blogs
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  6. #36


    Hafnarfjörður IS
    Posts : 4,376
    Linux Centos 7, W8.1, W7, W2K3 Server W10


    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by chrisa View Post
    MAKING an app is not the same thing as being told you have to take all your applications and refactor them as an app.
    They know their customers are abandoning the desktop. SAP in particularly is seriously moving into mobile apps. They have an entirely new architecture around it. Desktop apps will be around for at least a decade, again, as a virtual subsystem, but it's the customers that will be demanding to run their apps on ARM platforms that will get them to port.

    More importantly, you appear to know nothing whatsoever about side loading for enterprise customers. Side loading does not require Microsoft to take a cut of anything, other than the OS itself.

    Hi there.

    SAP MOBILE APPS still need a BACKEND architecture to support them and of course vast armies of consultants to design and maintain these and the business processes surrounding them. This is of course done on "Classical computers" which are usually laptops while the BACKEND SAP stuff runs on servers of various types. (A Server is still a COMPUTER BTW !!!!!!).

    For instance say you are a Service Engineer investigating an electric substation breakdown. OK you go out to the site where the breakdown was reported and you need to create a Malfunction report -- (to "Non engineers" here -- in plain English - an initial inspection report both visually and with some elementary tests as to what looks broken).

    OK you take out your tablet etc and connect up to your MOBILE SAP application usually done via a Web application like using a SAP WEB DYNPRO application. (The Mobile application is accessed via a web browser such as IE).

    Now the first thing that the poor old Engineer needs is details of the "Asset" (I.e the sub station and possibly all of the component parts). Now this is going to be accessed from some quite LARGE database so it will have to come from another DB system on a backend -- there's no way all this stuff can be stored on the mobile device - and you wouldn't want it to anyway as this is CENTRAL MASTER data which needs to be maintained in ONE place or the whole organisation will just collapse. Just imagine if the breakdown data was ONLY stored on the Engineers tablet / mobile device --- what happens if he had an accident later on in the day before getting back to the office -- and the Engineer might be an Outside third party contracted for inspection and preliminary repair work only. The backend DB systems are usually things like ORACLE or / MSSQL which SAP is licensed to use.

    (Even if the MOBILE device could store all the master data it would be crazy to do so -- you'd have to replicate this stuff on EVERY engineer['s device -- say 400 - 500 Engineers - and keep the data totally in sync AT ALL TIMES -- forget it !!! it should be obvious to even a 5 year old that this data only needs to be maintained in ONE central place).

    After the Engineer has made his malfunction report this will go via the SAP backend system into all sorts of complex workflows such as scheduling maintenance, procuring parts, some sort of finance such as PO's and eventually payment for work done will be integrated as well via Accounts payable and Accounts receivable. I can't even begin to explain the whole business cycle but SAP systems usually require complex back end Data bases whatever platform the front end is performed on and I can't see all these business cycles running on a Mobile platform -- same with HR -- unless you are say Lord Sugar saying You're Fired - the whole idea of running an entire company's HR system from a mobile device is just patently so totally absurd as to make further discussions here totally BOVINE.

    Of course mobile technology has its place but it will be a long long time --if ever before large backend systems disappear (whether local to the business or in the Cloud).

    Be very careful when discussing systems like SAP --these can't be picked up and understood via a couple of Google searches -- we are talking here of quite complex business processes - not simple one off transactional stuff.

    Another part of the SAP system which requires a HUGE amount of backend processing is the whole BW / BI part too -- this essentially extracts data from all sorts of processes to produce analytical forecasts for mamagement - the data required is much to complex to run in simple "transactional" mode especially on a mobile device although the query can of course be transmitted and returned to the device. If you don't believe this just google SAP BI INFOCUBES. Going further with this discussion is far beyond the scope of the post -- suffice to say by choosing SAP's MOBILE platform to emphasize the decline in back end services was a BAD one whichever way you looked at it.

    Mobile platforms are essentially fine for simple fast transactional processes but anything requiring a load of data from various sources and a lot of complex dynamic manipulation need to run on a very different type of architecture - even if the queries can be sent and received from the mobile device. As the query might take minutes or even HOURS to process I think you will get the point.

    Cheers
    jimbo
    Last edited by jimbo45; 13 Jul 2013 at 03:35.
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  7. #37


    Posts : 302
    Windows 7 on the desktop, Windows 8 Surface Pro mobile


    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo45 View Post
    Mobile platforms are essentially fine for simple fast transactional processes but anything requiring a load of data from various sources and a lot of complex dynamic manipulation need to run on a very different type of architecture - even if the queries can be sent and received from the mobile device. As the query might take minutes or even HOURS to process I think you will get the point.
    I think you got off a bit on a tangent. Assuming they upgraded the ability of the apps to encompass everything you can do out of an executable, then what they would want you to do is keep the same programs, refactor the interface so that its modern with all the touchy stuff... and build apps as needed. If your programs worked off a workstation before, they still do. Nothing in what they're attempting would fundamentally change the workflows.

    Basically, they want to go with one interface(modern off the run-time operating system) and have that work for anything from the smallest mobile device to the largest workstation/server.

    I wouldn't mind it so much if they'd just keep the desktop, chrome the apps if launched from the desktop, and didn't try to tax 20-30% of the revenue of developers.

    The one other very serious consideration is a fear of mine that once everything moves into the 'App Store', that you'll need a full rectal exam to be able to get anything in there. One of the best parts of personal computing is the ability for anyone to make an application if they so desire and distribute it without hassle. That going away would be a dark day indeed.
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  8. #38


    Posts : 1,925
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo45 View Post
    SAP MOBILE APPS still need a BACKEND architecture to support them and of course vast armies of consultants to design and maintain these and the business processes surrounding them. This is of course done on "Classical computers" which are usually laptops while the BACKEND SAP stuff runs on servers of various types. (A Server is still a COMPUTER BTW !!!!!!).
    That's a huge *DUH!*. I'm not sure why you felt the need to go on a long diatribe for something extremely obvious.

    You do understand the difference between an API and a User Interface, right?

    "Metro" is a UI, WinRT is an API (well, it's a runtime with an API). You can write apps to the WinRT runtime that will run as services. Eventually, this will become the way that all apps are written on the server as well. Today, it's not the case and server apps are largely still Win32.

    The reason for this is that WinRT can run on any platform, not just x86/x64.
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  9. #39


    Hafnarfjörður IS
    Posts : 4,376
    Linux Centos 7, W8.1, W7, W2K3 Server W10


    Hi there
    The real meaning was that you have to distinguish between quick simple transactional processes and things that are essentially analysis type stuff that requires gathering a large amount of data and massaging it to yield complex results (SOAP) and that mobile devices are only of any use for transactional processing. This means WHATEVER platform you use there will always be a requirement for "Classical computing devices" - so in that sense the Desktop is NOT dead nor is it likely to become so.

    Cheers
    jimbo
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  10. #40


    Posts : 302
    Windows 7 on the desktop, Windows 8 Surface Pro mobile


    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo45 View Post
    Hi there
    The real meaning was that you have to distinguish between quick simple transactional processes and things that are essentially analysis type stuff that requires gathering a large amount of data and massaging it to yield complex results (SOAP) and that mobile devices are only of any use for transactional processing. This means WHATEVER platform you use there will always be a requirement for "Classical computing devices" - so in that sense the Desktop is NOT dead nor is it likely to become so.

    Cheers
    jimbo
    Assuming they go to the trouble of giving apps all the abilities of an executable, then RT would be able to do anything a 'classical computing device' can do. Its simply a change in interface and coding standards at that point. In their thought process, everything essentially becomes the same device, and you simply program all applications in the app environment. The specific device you implement said app on would determine how much storage and power you have.

    So your server stuff would be run out of an app(which presumably now has all the capabilities of an executable sometime in the future) refactored as modern, and run on well.. big servers. You could run it on an ARM tablet, but why would you? It simply doesn't have the storage or processing necessary. Mini apps that interface to the server stuff would run primarily off ARM tablets or something small deployed into the field, although they can run on any doodad device that gets invented and simply backends to the server.

    This is what they're going after. I think its very naïve to think they can get customers and corporations to come along with this Brave New World(its essentially a full reboot of the entire old school ecosystem, which is insanely expensive no matter how you cut it), but there you have it.

    And if they don't leave in the desktop to interface to this, its pretty much dead on arrival. Even with capabilities built-in to modern, they're going to need a bridge because people who are trained with the desktop ways of doing things and are very, very adept at manipulating it, will basically feel like they just had an arm cutoff when trying to do the same thing in Modern. It is like suddenly being told you have to use a Dvorak-style keyboard. Can it be better? Yes. But not for the guy trained on a QWERTY. For him, everything is simply backwards and slow.
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Microsoft COO Kevin Turner refuses to lose
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