Windows 8 and 8.1 Forums


Microsoft COO Kevin Turner refuses to lose

  1. #21


    Posts : 1,925
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    Quote Originally Posted by chrisa View Post
    MAKING an app is not the same thing as being told you have to take all your applications and refactor them as an app.
    They know their customers are abandoning the desktop. SAP in particularly is seriously moving into mobile apps. They have an entirely new architecture around it. Desktop apps will be around for at least a decade, again, as a virtual subsystem, but it's the customers that will be demanding to run their apps on ARM platforms that will get them to port.

    More importantly, you appear to know nothing whatsoever about side loading for enterprise customers. Side loading does not require Microsoft to take a cut of anything, other than the OS itself.

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  2. #22


    USA, Idaho
    Posts : 1,062
    Win 8, (VM win7, XP, Vista)


    To those of you who thank that the app makers, and program designers will not go down the road that Microsoft is looking towards need to read about the Apple Plan (which is in full swing). All of the Programs\Apps that are designed my Apple for the Mac are now only sold through the Apple App Store. Just about all (not saying everyone\everything) programs\apps for the Mac series of computers are now available through the App Store, and Apple get 30% of all monies made.

    Now when Apple announced this plan the Mac world went crazy, and said it would never work. But, Apple held to the plan, and as such are doing quite well with it. They are getting their cut and the developers are happy because their apps are being sold (money in their pockets), and not pirated. The not pirated was the was the key to Apple bringing out the App Store. It give the developers of Mac Apps a pirate free place to sell their apps and not worry about losing revenue to those who wanted something for free even though they didn't desire it for free.

    This is what MS is now doing, and to developers it will be a good thing in the long run. Adobe is going to the cloud for this very reason; pirating has hurt their bottom line, thus going to the cloud will cut out the pirates.

    We can all argue all day long about what is right, and what is wrong with Microsoft's new direction, but it is nothing more then an argument over verbiage. We can all assume we know why or why not Microsoft should take this road they are now traveling down, albeit it is only an assumption on our part.

    The only part of this argument that makes sense to me is the idea of apps from the app store being full screen, again, albeit that problem has be taken care by Stardock's (not a big fan) ModernMix; thus that renders the argument that there is no way of using a Microsoft App Store App on the desktop (old style) mute.

    . . .just some random thoughts. . .
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  3. #23


    Posts : 302
    Windows 7 on the desktop, Windows 8 Surface Pro mobile


    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    To those of you who thank that the app makers, and program designers will not go down the road that Microsoft is looking towards need to read about the Apple Plan (which is in full swing). All of the Programs\Apps that are designed my Apple for the Mac are now only sold through the Apple App Store. Just about all (not saying everyone\everything) programs\apps for the Mac series of computers are now available through the App Store, and Apple get 30% of all monies made.
    Mac isn't PC. Two problems with your philosophy that such a thing can transfer over:

    1) There has never been a deep bench of Macintosh developers. The majority of Macintosh programs are invariably existing ports of Windows products and a far smaller impact on a companies bottom line.

    2) Even with moving desktop sales into the App Store, Apple did not force companies to refactor their product to a non-desktop application run-time setup. Its one thing to get people to sell the stuff they've already made in your store, its another thing to tell them they have to spend millions of dollars redeveloping their products in order to sell it in your store.

    And Microsoft can't simply force companies to sell their Desktop(or Win32 if you want that terminology) Applications out of the App Store to take a 30% cut without holy hell coming down on them. Thats why they look to force the refactoring to something they can tax.

    And to be perfectly honest, I don't see the point in forcing full-blown tens of millions of lines of code applications to be compiled at runtime, regardless of the speed of the computer. It would be like the worlds biggest condom to prevent something that antivirus tools already take care of for the most part. For small, mobile apps.. its fine and can be helpful. For large, full blown programs.. it becomes way too cumbersome as it scales with the size of the product.
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  4. #24


    USA, Idaho
    Posts : 1,062
    Win 8, (VM win7, XP, Vista)


    Quote Originally Posted by chrisa View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    To those of you who thank that the app makers, and program designers will not go down the road that Microsoft is looking towards need to read about the Apple Plan (which is in full swing). All of the Programs\Apps that are designed my Apple for the Mac are now only sold through the Apple App Store. Just about all (not saying everyone\everything) programs\apps for the Mac series of computers are now available through the App Store, and Apple get 30% of all monies made.
    Mac isn't PC. Two problems with your philosophy that such a thing can transfer over:

    1) There has never been a deep bench of Macintosh developers. The majority of Macintosh programs are invariably existing ports of Windows products and a far smaller impact on a companies bottom line.

    2) Even with moving desktop sales into the App Store, Apple did not force companies to refactor their product to a non-desktop application run-time setup. Its one thing to get people to sell the stuff they've already made in your store, its another thing to tell them they have to spend millions of dollars redeveloping their products in order to sell it in your store.

    And Microsoft can't simply force companies to sell their Desktop(or Win32 if you want that terminology) Applications out of the App Store to take a 30% cut without holy hell coming down on them. Thats why they look to force the refactoring to something they can tax.

    And to be perfectly honest, I don't see the point in forcing full-blown tens of millions of lines of code applications to be compiled at runtime, regardless of the speed of the computer. It would be like the worlds biggest condom to prevent something that antivirus tools already take care of for the most part. For small, mobile apps.. its fine and can be helpful. For large, full blown programs.. it becomes way too cumbersome as it scales with the size of the product.
    I know by reading your posts that you hate to be wrong, but as to whether a Mac is a PC it is; I know I have two of them. One is a 1987 Mac Plus (still works) and the other is a 2009 (late) iMac 27" running Mountain Lion.

    As to the rest you will not get me into one of your arguments. . .so have a nice day. . .
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  5. #25


    Posts : 302
    Windows 7 on the desktop, Windows 8 Surface Pro mobile


    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    I know by reading your posts that you hate to be wrong, but as to whether a Mac is a PC it is; I know I have two of them. One is a 1987 Mac Plus (still works) and the other is a 2009 (late) iMac 27" running Mountain Lion.
    Now you're simply getting into semantics. Yes, a Mac is a Personal Computer :P. I'm also certain you know what I mean when I say Mac isn't PC. But just for you, Macintosh PC isn't a Windows PC. Fair Enough? They're held to different standards and things that may work on one because its small and niche may not work on the other because its mainstream, and not just because they're both Personal Computers.
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  6. #26


    USA, Idaho
    Posts : 1,062
    Win 8, (VM win7, XP, Vista)


    Quote Originally Posted by chrisa View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    I know by reading your posts that you hate to be wrong, but as to whether a Mac is a PC it is; I know I have two of them. One is a 1987 Mac Plus (still works) and the other is a 2009 (late) iMac 27" running Mountain Lion.
    Now you're simply getting into semantics. Yes, a Mac is a Personal Computer :P. I'm also certain you know what I mean when I say Mac isn't PC. But just for you, Macintosh PC isn't a Windows PC. Fair Enough? They're held to different standards and things that may work on one because its small and niche may not work on the other because its mainstream, and not just because they're both Personal Computers.
    Wrong again. My Mac is a Windows PC. With Windows 7 in Boot Camp mode it becomes a Windows PC. Or, if you decide to no longer use the Mac as a Mac Computer then you can run simply as a PC with either Windows (7, 8, or Vista), or whatever flavor of Linux you would like to use (still a Mac).
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  7. #27


    Hafnarfjörður IS
    Posts : 4,376
    Linux Centos 7, W8.1, W7, W2K3 Server W10


    Quote Originally Posted by chrisa View Post
    Turner said that Microsoft's ecosystem, which builds Windows devices and mobile apps, is 18 to 24 months behind where he wants it to be, but it is "catching up."
    Source: Microsoft COO Kevin Turner refuses to lose | Microsoft - CNET News

    COO Kevin Turner finally let slip exactly what they mean by 'devices and services', and the desktop is apparently not included in that.

    What he's going to find is not only will they not make inroads with tablet devices with that strategy, but they're more than likely going to cheese off the remaining developers on the PC side along with most of the users. About the only way it would work is if they overhauled mobile apps such that they worked in the same manner as applications, and I don't see them being bright enough to do that.

    Literally, it would need to work like a secure application and not the Apple-style app they have now. Being able to background apps and have them continue processing, provide the ability to pass-in information through walled gardens from one app to another with permissions, being able to launch one app from another app, being able to access a shared set of data, etc.

    Even with all that.. I wager that companies like Dassault Systems(maker of SolidWorks, pretty much the top product in CAD design and 3D printing) that are extremely heavy into Windows, would freeze their product development to a maximum of Windows 8.x. Nobody is going to put millions of dollars into hardcore applications so that they can then give Microsoft 20-30% of their revenue. Nor do they give a rat's behind if these products work on tablets or not.

    They'll port to Mac and Linux and give Microsoft two of these ,,|,, ,,|,, first.
    Hi there
    as a person who deals regularly on the Markets as well as messing around with some technology the FIRST and quite painful lesson I learned VERY QUICKLY INDEED was NEVER EVER to chase losses. (Capital letters intended). You will lose 100% of the time guaranteed.

    Sometimes you make a Bad Trade - and as you get more experienced this happens less frequently - but when you do you just have to say to yourself "I hosed that one up -- now time to move on". It's no point even THINKING about it any more or going into the inevitable "Monday Morning Quarterbacking" rigmarole. It's the same with a load of other things - such as you've created a bad product -- just ditch it, grin and bear your losses and start again.

    (Some exceptions do require extensive post event analysis - such as for example Aircraft crashes etc but I think we aren't considering those types of events here).

    Ms needs to realize it's come up with a Lemon -- and it needs either a total re-think or a complete re-work to fix it --the desktop IS NOT GOING AWAY and there are even signs of a slight revival in the laptop market for Q3/Q4 this year as people discover the limitations of tablets and find they really do need something a bit more suited to their purposes.

    In any case those who CANNOT adapt their business plans in the face of overwhelming evidence that the original purpose has gone awry will always loose out.

    It's a great pity that the CEO of Ms wasn't in (Lord) Alan Sugar's Boardroom on that very entertaining BBC TV program "The Apprentice" where Lord Sugar points up his finger and says "Your Fired".


    If you have time review last weeks program --the Candidate Mr Sugar wanted to win was a Mr Clough -- had extremely good personality, was intelligent, performed all the tasks required in the series decently but totally refused to realize his business model was an absolute joke. - Even Mr Sugar said --I really regret it but I have to fire you. And this was AFTER Mr sugar offered the guy a lifeline by explaining to him that his business model was a joke -- he still refused to budge an inch.

    For those that don't know Mr Sugar is one of the UK's richest men who started out with nothing and certainly knows what he is talking about --if you refuse advice from this sort of person you really are both totally stupid and 100% doomed to failure.

    The Apprentice Review: Week 11 - Who Is Left After Tonight's Explosive Episode? - Celebrity Gossip, News & Photos, Movie Reviews, Competitions - Entertainmentwise

    Those who have access to BBC TV can also watch the whole program via BBC Iplayer or even via some of the usual torrents specialising in TV shows -- for people like me who don't always get access go via any UK proxy --the show is really worth watching at this stage.

    It should be mandatory viewing for some people at Ms I think.

    Cheers
    jimbo
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  8. #28


    Posts : 302
    Windows 7 on the desktop, Windows 8 Surface Pro mobile


    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo45 View Post
    Hi there
    as a person who deals regularly on the Markets as well as messing around with some technology the FIRST and quite painful lesson I learned VERY QUICKLY INDEED was NEVER EVER to chase losses. (Capital letters intended). You will lose 100% of the time guaranteed.
    I pretty much agree with your assessment and really lay the blame at the feet of one person, Steve Ballmer. He's too much a nickel and dimer while having very little tech savvy. So he tries to bleed current technologies dry, aimlessly tries to scattershot hit the Next Big Thing with R&D, and inevitably ends up trying to fast-follow whatever is making the big bux. Say what you will about Jobs, at his core he had a pretty good feel on what to push(even if it would take a while), and what not to push. Gates had it(but is too busy off saving Africa to care). The Google Guys have it. The jury is still out on Tim Cook.
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  9. #29


    Posts : 288
    Windows 7 Ultimate, Windows Developer Preview, Linux Mint 9


    Quote Originally Posted by chrisa View Post
    I pretty much agree with your assessment and really lay the blame at the feet of one person, Steve Ballmer.
    Let us not forget that wacko Ballmer alone is not the only one who makes critical decisions done inside Micro$oft. They also have a board of directors that most of us can't name at all that do take part in their decisions but many of us would look at the frontman, Ballmer as the main guy to blame. I'm convinced that the man is nuts and delusional after his statements but why hasn't anybody within M$ who is more sane than he is do something to the drop the weight that is making them sink at the moment? Or maybe the reason is that most of Micro$oft's executive elite is delusional on this direction they wanted to push into and those that do think differently, might have chosen to keep silent than to be burned alive like witches on a stake. I'm sure Microsoft people at ground level acknowledge that this is not going as good as planned but those on the top fail to publicly acknowledge what really goes on and insist on something that right now produce not even remotely close to the best of harvest.
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  10. #30


    Posts : 902
    Win8.1 Pro, Desktop Mode


    "Refuses to lose..."...??? That's rich.
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Microsoft COO Kevin Turner refuses to lose
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