Windows 8 and 8.1 Forums


Windows 8.1 first look: Finally, Windows the way you want

  1. #81


    Posts : 86
    Windows 8.1 Pro & OS X Mavericks


    I still don't understand Microsoft's strategy though. I mean most laptops and desktop are still being shipped without touch capabilities. Many people like myself are comfortable with what Windows 7 brought to the table. Performance and other small power user improvements could have been made and Microsoft could have released something called Windows 7.1 and Windows 7.2...etc.

    Microsoft became desperate and wanted tablets running Windows on them and they messed up by making Windows 8. Why couldn't they make a Windows operating system designed from the ground up for tablets? They say they want to "sell PCs", well they could have by making this Windows tablet operating system cool, fun, usable, and efficient and not shove everything in there. I mean seriously the Windows Desktop should not exist in a tablet.

    If this Metro thing is the future, then why have the desktop on a tablet in the first place? I guess my point is that Microsoft should have made Windows 7.1 instead for Desktop and Laptop PCs and maybe a Windows Touch OS on tablets. Obviously OEMs will make money by selling Windows tablets because Microsoft will be improving that area since this is the future while Desktop PCs will eventually not be around as much and most people would have moved to the new Touch OS once it was matured enough.

    As for Windows 8.1, I'm just not convinced. Hopefully somebody at Microsoft will lead them in the right direction.

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  2. #82


    USA, Idaho
    Posts : 1,062
    Win 8, (VM win7, XP, Vista)


    Lets see; no Microsoft does not care about you, and why should they; they really shouldn't.

    Regardless whether we the so called techies and geeks who are into computers and their workings we truly mean nothing to Microsoft, and again regardless of what side we are on we are still the minority. Yes we have loud voices, albeit they are only heard on the internet which in the long run has no bearing on what processes, or direction Microsoft is taking.
    And, for all you who think that Microsoft is shooting off it's feet you really need to think again. They are to entrenched in the worlds of business, industry, medicine, space exploration, etc. Really stop and think is Microsoft really worried about what you think; NO. They have enough money coming in from other ventures that they can go several years without to many worries just to get this off the ground.
    I know some of you think that you just have to say something in hope that Microsoft will get your message, sorry they are not going to call, nor contact you in any other way.

    Again sorry, but you are not being heard, nor are they paying any attention to the News Section of "The Eight Forums."

    Truly Wishing You All A Nice Day,

    Lee. . .
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  3. #83


    Posts : 302
    Windows 7 on the desktop, Windows 8 Surface Pro mobile


    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere View Post
    One more time people. It's not going to happen.

    Do you know why it's not going to happen? Because Microsoft has "end of lifed" the desktop as we know it. It's going away.
    Can guarantee you it won't. Not until they come up with something better, which they haven't. Microsoft itself can't 'end of life' anything that the users do not buy into. The only thing they end up 'end of lifing' is themselves. Don't pretend that there aren't other viable options upto and including Linux and Mac.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere View Post
    Either you get on board, or you're just going to be frustrated for all eternity.
    Or still be using Windows 7 for far longer than Microsoft can stay solvent. Don't think we can't, or won't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere View Post
    The reason for this? Because Metro apps can run on any platform. Win32 apps cannot. Metro apps can be ARM based, or x86 based, or x64 based, or Itanium based, or any other processor and memory architecture they want. It can run on phones, or tablets, or desktops, or giant NOC systems with 100 foot screens. There are too many technical advantages for Microsoft in this. Servers are going ARM based, for instance... particularly in the blade market.
    The only advantage Microsoft cares about is the financial one. I do agree that they are looking to move everybody over to an app-based system, but the entire reason has nothing to do with technical advantages, and everything to do with trying to ensure that they start getting a 20-30% cut of all software created on their systems.

    And the major fallacy you spout is that not only can the app-based interface work on ARM, x86, x64, etc.. IT CAN RUN ON TOP OF THE DESKTOP OPERATING SYSTEM ITSELF. When they get their head out of their rear and get tired of bleeding money, they'll do what they should have done to begin with and simply setup the ability for you to run apps from the desktop in a windowed format for workstations. Its not like they don't have all of the code already made and built into Visual Studio. Ever debugged an App? They have an absolutely gorgeous 'simulator' that lets you window that stuff, rotate it, change the resolution, etc. The only thing that 'forces' them to maximize apps to your screen or not be wrapped in chrome is their insistence upon it.

    Make no mistake, whether Apple shows them how its done, or Microsoft somehow comes to Jesus, its the way it is supposed to work on a workstation and people will not leave the desktop simply because M$ wants to bilk a 20%-30% tax for doing nothing. That's not to say they shouldn't have the option for Metro to drive the interface on tablets, but if you want to drive it from a desktop environment, that option should be there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere View Post
    This is not just a case of pretty pictures and arbitrary UI choices. There are thousands of technical reasons for these changes and more importantly, there's lots of MONEY behind these changes. These changes will make Microsoft TRILLIONS of dollars over the next 25 years. Staying on Win32 on x86 will not, and will eventually put them out to pasture. They are NOT going back.
    The surest way to be put out to pasture is to sell what people won't buy. Trillions? They'll be lucky if they're even solvent in 5-10 years if they don't right the ship, and everything that we've seen says Ballmer very likely may become as infamous as Captain Edward John Smith at his ability to go full steam ahead into dangerous waters.
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  4. #84


    Hafnarfjörður IS
    Posts : 4,376
    Linux Centos 7, W8.1, W7, W2K3 Server W10


    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    Lets see; no Microsoft does not care about you, and why should they; they really shouldn't.

    Regardless whether we the so called techies and geeks who are into computers and their workings we truly mean nothing to Microsoft, and again regardless of what side we are on we are still the minority. Yes we have loud voices, albeit they are only heard on the internet which in the long run has no bearing on what processes, or direction Microsoft is taking.
    And, for all you who think that Microsoft is shooting off it's feet you really need to think again. They are to entrenched in the worlds of business, industry, medicine, space exploration, etc. Really stop and think is Microsoft really worried about what you think; NO. They have enough money coming in from other ventures that they can go several years without to many worries just to get this off the ground.
    I know some of you think that you just have to say something in hope that Microsoft will get your message, sorry they are not going to call, nor contact you in any other way.

    Again sorry, but you are not being heard, nor are they paying any attention to the News Section of "The Eight Forums."

    Truly Wishing You All A Nice Day,

    Lee. . .
    Hi there
    Have to disagree with the first part of your post --if you are a person responsible for buying / kitting out 1000's of company laptops (I think these days we can ignore desktops -- very few companies buy these any more) or responsible for software / hardware procurement (and this includes the growing SERVICES sector) then you certainly won't be ignored by ANY sensible salesman in Ms.

    Remember now that it's very easy to provide Virtual company servers supported by large organisations like Red Hat (Linux) who can easily provide a Windows infrastructure where just say Office is needed on the client machines.

    The Desktop (or laptop) isn't going away any time soon -- just get away from your desks and go out into the REAL world of Engineering / Science / exploration etc. Even TV channels like EDEN ( a sort of National Geographic type of channel) sends researchers out into the wild where they rig up all sorts of laptops for capturing the behaviour of Animals at various places and also for automatically controlling things like "Robotic Wolf Sounds" and "Wolf Cams" for attracting packs of Wolves to determine their behaviour etc.

    The use for portable PROPER computing devices has actually never been larger -- the fact that less are being sold is that modern devices have so much better hardware that they don't need to be updated as much and as we all know (or should now) once a market matures the sales invariably fall - but certainly won't stop.

    I'm getting a bit tired and sick of those saying the Desktop is dead -- by Desktop I mean Classical computing devices such as Laptops -- actually in a Workplace Desktops are really disappearing fast -- but they are still being replaced with COMPUTERS (Laptops - whether company owned or BYOD's). Classical computing is certainly NOT dead at all.

    I wonder what you as Navigator would do say in 30 years on a tourist flight to the moon and there was a problem for example that an orbit / fuel burn need to be computed very quickly and you were out of communication with Home base -- I'm sure you wouldn't attempt the calculations using a pen and piece of paper only. You'd certainly need a sophisticated FAST computer.

    The whole idea of an "App store" also IMO has passed its sell by date -- I'll bet the vast majority on these Forums when they do install any app on their smart phones invariably go for the FREE one's. I can't think of a SINGLE PAID app that is any better than an equivalent FREE one - and most of these are relatively small quick transactions that work just fine on a Mobile phone -- but have very little use whatsoever on say a laptop. I don't see Ms making a lot from the Store -- look even the once mighty iTunes is feeling the pinch and this is NOTHING to do with piracy either.

    BTW I heard a rumour that it was the old VISTA development teams that cobbled up Windows 8 -- so now we know. !!!!

    Cheers
    jimbo
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  5. #85


    Australia
    Posts : 716
    Windows 7 Ult Reatil & Win 8 Pro OEM


    @Jimbo Totally agree with that assessment.

    Interesting to note that M$ appears as a part sponsor in the credits at the end of some NCIS shows where they use multiple computer monitors in the crime lab. Have to give credit there for excellent subliminal advertising.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  6. #86


    Posts : 1,925
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    Quote Originally Posted by chrisa View Post
    Can guarantee you it won't. Not until they come up with something better, which they haven't. Microsoft itself can't 'end of life' anything that the users do not buy into. The only thing they end up 'end of lifing' is themselves. Don't pretend that there aren't other viable options upto and including Linux and Mac.
    You can't guarantee anything, since you appear to have no idea of the direction technology is moving in, the direction that users are moving in, or how the server market is moving.

    Microsoft can do anything they want. It's their product. You seem to be under a delusion that Microsoft's customers have a say in anything they do. They don't. Customers can only vote with their wallet. That doesn't ensure that they get a say, that only means they go elsewhere if they truly aren't interested.

    There aren't, in fact any other viable options for desktop users. Not only are Mac's much more expensive, but they don't have even a fraction of the apps available for Windows, particularly in the gaming market. If you're a gamer, Windows is your only choice.. and as such, you'll be running bootcamp anyways, so you're buying a Windows license. Even so, suppose the world wanted to move to Mac.. Apple simply does not have the manufacturing capacity to meet the need of anything more than 5% of the market. They refuse to license their OS to third parties, and they can't meet demand. Apple is *NOT* an option.

    Linux is also not an option, despite the advances in various distro's.. the problem is still.... various distro's. Users have no common ground to fall back on. There is absolutely *ZERO* commercial app market, and the free apps have varying level of quality. Linux is not a solution for 95% of the users out there because they will not be able to figure out how to use it (that includes installing software, configuring it, etc..).

    So no, Microsoft has no fear of users going to another platform in any great quantity. Although they do have a fear that uses will stay on older versions of Windows.

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisa View Post
    Or still be using Windows 7 for far longer than Microsoft can stay solvent. Don't think we can't, or won't.
    PC's break and die. 50% of the market is still on XP, but XP is will be end of life next year, meaning no more security updates. As users systems start to fall apart they will eventually move, and most PC's come with Windows 8. Few are going to downgrade to 7. Historically, users don't typically upgrade their OS. They only buy a new computer and get a new OS.

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisa View Post
    The only advantage Microsoft cares about is the financial one. I do agree that they are looking to move everybody over to an app-based system, but the entire reason has nothing to do with technical advantages, and everything to do with trying to ensure that they start getting a 20-30% cut of all software created on their systems.
    The only advantage *ANY* company cares about is a financial one. That's a tautology. As I said, Win32 apps aren't going away anytime soon, if ever. But they will become less and less important. Microsoft is now in the process of moving Office to Metro (they've already moved OneNote, and they've shown a new version of PowerPoint). In a few more years, Metro will achieve API parity with Win32 and they will be able to write any app in Metro that you could write in Win32.

    The App store does indeed benefit Microsoft. But it also benefits app writers. It's opening up a whole new market for software developers that just didn't exist before. We always had shareware and what not, but people just did not make any money at it. Now the app store market opens up the ability for app writers to finally make some profit. If it follows the iOS app store model, then there are many new app store millionaires out there.

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisa View Post
    And the major fallacy you spout is that not only can the app-based interface work on ARM, x86, x64, etc.. IT CAN RUN ON TOP OF THE DESKTOP OPERATING SYSTEM ITSELF. When they get their head out of their rear and get tired of bleeding money, they'll do what they should have done to begin with and simply setup the ability for you to run apps from the desktop in a windowed format for workstations. Its not like they don't have all of the code already made and built into Visual Studio. Ever debugged an App? They have an absolutely gorgeous 'simulator' that lets you window that stuff, rotate it, change the resolution, etc. The only thing that 'forces' them to maximize apps to your screen or not be wrapped in chrome is their insistence upon it.
    They're not bleeding money. Microsoft is still making money. Have you checked their quarterly reports? Last quarter, they made $20.5B dollars, compared to $17.5B from the same quarter the year before. You're crazy if you think Microsoft is in any financial trouble.

    Metro cannot run on top of the desktop. You are mistaken about that. Metro is a new Operating System. It runs along side Win32 on desktop PC's, which is what it's already doing. First, you are confusing the desktop with the OS. The desktop is Windows Explorer. The old start menu, etc.. all that is a part of Windows Explorer, and not a part of the Win32 OS itself, except insomuch as Explorer is part of the OS. Second, as I said, Metro and Win32 are separate OS's with separate API's. They even have separate "Window Stations", which are the "views" of the screen that applications present themselves in.

    You are also confusing the full-screen mode of Metro with the desktop. Yes, you're absolutely right that Microsoft has chosen to make Metro full screen at this point, but my belief is that this is just because Metro is not yet mature enough for them to have done anything else. Windows 8 is the first step upon the evolution of Metro, and I believe later versions will contain all the same functionality as the Win32 desktop does today.

    Don't be naïve and think that what Metro is today is the way it will always be (or even that this is what Microsoft's vision of Metro is, it's not). Anyone who isn't closed minded about this understands that Metro is immature, and knows it will expand it's functionality. If you were to go to sleep for 10 years and wake up, you would probably not be able to tell the difference between a fully Metro version of Windows and the old desktop version, other than the start menu being gone (and that is gone for a lot of reasons that have nothing to do with Metro.. mostly because the old start menu became unusable after a certain number of entries were added, and it was difficult for people with disabilities to use.)

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisa View Post
    Make no mistake, whether Apple shows them how its done, or Microsoft somehow comes to Jesus, its the way it is supposed to work on a workstation and people will not leave the desktop simply because M$ wants to bilk a 20%-30% tax for doing nothing. That's not to say they shouldn't have the option for Metro to drive the interface on tablets, but if you want to drive it from a desktop environment, that option should be there.
    Apple is doing the *EXACT SAME THING*. They are merging the MacOS and iOS environments. Remember Dashboard? That was their first stab at this.

    Stop acting like the way Metro is today is the way Microsoft intends for it to always be. That's a stupid argument. Metro will get better. No, it can't replace the desktop today. In 3-5 years, probably.

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisa View Post
    The surest way to be put out to pasture is to sell what people won't buy. Trillions? They'll be lucky if they're even solvent in 5-10 years if they don't right the ship, and everything that we've seen says Ballmer very likely may become as infamous as Captain Edward John Smith at his ability to go full steam ahead into dangerous waters.

    Desktop sales are dwindling. Tablet sales are skyrocketing. Smart Phone sales are skyrocketing. Gartner says that Tablet PC sales will exceed Desktop PC sales by almost 2:1 in 2015.

    Gartner Says Worldwide PC, Tablet and Mobile Phone Combined Shipments to Reach 2.4 Billion Units in 2013

    By 2020, some estimate as much as 10:1 table vs pc sales.

    There will always be a need for desktops. But most users don't need desktops, and are perfectly happy with a device they can plug into a monitor and use as a desktop, or take it with them and use it as a tablet.

    You're living in a dream world if you think that Desktop PC sales will drive the future of computing.
    Last edited by Mystere; 05 Jul 2013 at 17:45.
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  7. #87


    Posts : 6
    Windows 8.1


    I wouldn't say that the desktop computer is dying out in industry at all! In fields such as design engineering which require a lot of computing power desktops are still far preferable to laptops.

    Does anyone else remember the transition from windows 3.1/3.11 to 95? The change from 7 to 8 is NOTHING compared to that.
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  8. #88


    South Coast NSW, Australia
    Posts : 615
    Windows 8.1 'Ultimate' RTM 64 bit (Pro/WMC).


    Mystere, you sound more and more like a fanboi by the day.

    I'm getting rather tired of the patronising attitude that you, and some others, display towards those who don't share your/MS' 'vision'. And I'm sure I'm not alone.

    Just accept that there are many who won't play that game, and stop running them down. They are not wrong, or 'luddites' 'dinosaurs' or 'won't adapt'. What they are, is realistic.

    The desktop will live as long as there are brain-dead consumers to consume the content we will be creating. Because they sure won't be creating much themselves. I'll certainly still be computing and creating on a desktop/laptop long after most tablets are land-fill. And powerful desktop/laptops will still be around long after you and I have become land-fill. Maybe not in every home, but certainly in many.

    And you can bank on that.

    The real 'evolutionary dead-end' is the one you and MS love so much... A future where no-one has the skills or equipment needed to create anything, but only suck up 'push programming' from 'big content'. It almost seems sometimes to be a deliberate strategy to decrease computer-literacy, to me.

    That's no future, AFAIC, and it is NOT computing any more than watching TV makes you a movie director.

    As for your comments re Linux, if enough people abandon Windows (and do not think it can't or won't happen) you just watch the number of distros shrink and come together as a large user-base makes their choice. There will be a winner (my money's on Mint). And it's these users who will get the last laugh.

    You can bank on that, too,


    Wenda.
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  9. #89


    Posts : 1,925
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    As I said, there will always be a need for desktops. Certain classes need them for sure. But the demand for desktops is dropping. Note that from the Gartner article I linked, expected Desktop and Notebook sales drop from 341M to 271M over the next few years, while tablets go from 116M to 467M in the same time period.

    By any measure, a drop of 70M is huge, particularly when the overall market is increasing (which means it's actually dropping more if you consider that the size of the pie has increased).
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  10. #90


    Posts : 5,360
    7/8/ubuntu/Linux Deepin


    LOL. Very funny, Mystere. Are we playing spot the contradictions?

    Your point seems to be MS can do what they like because the customers have no choice. Then you say desktop sales are becoming less important - down to perhaps 10%.

    It follows that MS will be relying on other device sales - where they do have to compete. Hence they will not have that kind of monopoly power and can not do what they want. Witness what happened with Xbone.
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Windows 8.1 first look: Finally, Windows the way you want
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