Windows 8 and 8.1 Forums


Windows 8.1 first look: Finally, Windows the way you want

  1. #161


    Adelaide
    Posts : 1,338
    Windows 7 Ultimate SP1 (64 bit), Linux Mint 17.1 MATE (64 bit)

    How could that work?


    Quote Originally Posted by chrisa View Post
    As such, the logical extension of that is.. so why can't all web pages be apps? The answer being, they can, AND THEY WILL :>.

    By taking the front end and moving it off the server to a users machine, you all of a sudden break past the single biggest thing holding the internet back. HTML and its associated garbage workarounds that power most modern websites. All of a sudden you have full access to voice, sound, cameras, touch, 3D acceleration, and CPU's to handle graphics load never before even contemplated for websites. All without having to continually suck down bandwidth for static resources beyond the first download to get current.

    The Internet will still be alive and kicking.. but in 5-15 years depending on how fast they hit upon it and get up and running, the Web is going to die and be replaced by websites reformatted and rebuilt to run as Apps. I guarantee it. It'll be the apps that communicate with the servers and jockey information from the servers back and forth, and the site itself will be deprecated. It'll take some years for tablets to truly achieve the penetration needed, but that's the future. HTML itself will finally die a well deserved death.
    Even though HTML and JavaScript (especially) are rubbish, how can appsites possibly work?

    Each of these appsites will have to be coded for every OS.
    How is that any different to what we have today (i.e. software for Windows, software for Mac & software for Linux)?

    The main reason the Internet is popular is because it is (basically) device independent (unless you refuse to use a browser other than IE 8 or earlier).
    Code once, run everywhere.

    That idea also flies in the face of the "everything in the Cloud, rented to the user for maximum profit" crowd (i.e. the big software companies).
    It would return power to the user, which is an anathema to the Corporations and Government.

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  2. #162


    Florida
    Posts : 64
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    Quote Originally Posted by lehnerus2000 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by chrisa View Post
    As such, the logical extension of that is.. so why can't all web pages be apps? The answer being, they can, AND THEY WILL :>.

    By taking the front end and moving it off the server to a users machine, you all of a sudden break past the single biggest thing holding the internet back. HTML and its associated garbage workarounds that power most modern websites. All of a sudden you have full access to voice, sound, cameras, touch, 3D acceleration, and CPU's to handle graphics load never before even contemplated for websites. All without having to continually suck down bandwidth for static resources beyond the first download to get current.

    The Internet will still be alive and kicking.. but in 5-15 years depending on how fast they hit upon it and get up and running, the Web is going to die and be replaced by websites reformatted and rebuilt to run as Apps. I guarantee it. It'll be the apps that communicate with the servers and jockey information from the servers back and forth, and the site itself will be deprecated. It'll take some years for tablets to truly achieve the penetration needed, but that's the future. HTML itself will finally die a well deserved death.
    Even though HTML and JavaScript (especially) are rubbish, how can appsites possibly work?

    Each of these appsites will have to be coded for every OS.
    How is that any different to what we have today (i.e. software for Windows, software for Mac & software for Linux)?

    The main reason the Internet is popular is because it is (basically) device independent (unless you refuse to use a browser other than IE 8 or earlier).
    Code once, run everywhere.

    That idea also flies in the face of the "everything in the Cloud, rented to the user for maximum profit" crowd (i.e. the big software companies).
    It would return power to the user, which is an anathema to the Corporations and Government.
    I don't see how you can say HTML is rubbish, it's the core of web design, formatting, etc.
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  3. #163


    Posts : 302
    Windows 7 on the desktop, Windows 8 Surface Pro mobile


    Quote Originally Posted by lehnerus2000 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by chrisa View Post
    As such, the logical extension of that is.. so why can't all web pages be apps? The answer being, they can, AND THEY WILL :>.

    By taking the front end and moving it off the server to a users machine, you all of a sudden break past the single biggest thing holding the internet back. HTML and its associated garbage workarounds that power most modern websites. All of a sudden you have full access to voice, sound, cameras, touch, 3D acceleration, and CPU's to handle graphics load never before even contemplated for websites. All without having to continually suck down bandwidth for static resources beyond the first download to get current.

    The Internet will still be alive and kicking.. but in 5-15 years depending on how fast they hit upon it and get up and running, the Web is going to die and be replaced by websites reformatted and rebuilt to run as Apps. I guarantee it. It'll be the apps that communicate with the servers and jockey information from the servers back and forth, and the site itself will be deprecated. It'll take some years for tablets to truly achieve the penetration needed, but that's the future. HTML itself will finally die a well deserved death.
    Even though HTML and JavaScript (especially) are rubbish, how can appsites possibly work?
    You do understand that once you have the system locked down such that the run-time compiler prevents source code from running off its rails, you can write code for apps in any language you want. Right?

    Quote Originally Posted by lehnerus2000 View Post
    Each of these appsites will have to be coded for every OS.
    And? Same is true of any app, and people do that all the time. But once you open up the computer and its API's(and this is one area Microsoft absolutely decimates Apple and Android), an App can run rings around the severe limitations of a website, and do it in code that is fairly small. Its actually pretty crazy how compact things have gotten these days on the design side. I will admit some variant of HTML will inevitably be used for the design side, but its not required :>.

    But I really don't think you realize just how limited the web actually is. The document structure of it is very constrictive. People have to do cartwheels and thread a needle to get anything outside of the ordinary to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by lehnerus2000 View Post
    How is that any different to what we have today (i.e. software for Windows, software for Mac & software for Linux)?
    Because given the lockdown structure of it(at least on Windows and Mac), you don't have issues with malicious code, which has always been the issue.

    The entire point of the web using HTML in the early days was to pass ever progressively complex documents as text, so that you couldn't pass viruses. Then they came up with Java as a way to user-side the code, and its always had security holes. That was finally solved with the walled garden and truly locking the system away from the RT compiler. The only thing they have not done is understood that the webpage itself can now be pushed clientside and turned completely into a program that takes full advantage of all the API's of the system.

    They have started to develop some portions of web services as applications, thats how Google Now and Siri work. Once they figure out how to streamline development, push it, you're going to see some crazy stuff(and GN and Siri are pretty crazy), because suddenly can do anything you want. It'll take some time to get rolling, I will definitely admit that.

    Quote Originally Posted by lehnerus2000 View Post
    The main reason the Internet is popular is because it is (basically) device independent (unless you refuse to use a browser other than IE 8 or earlier).

    Code once, run everywhere.
    It also has very constrictive confines as to what can actually be done.

    Quote Originally Posted by lehnerus2000 View Post
    That idea also flies in the face of the "everything in the Cloud, rented to the user for maximum profit" crowd (i.e. the big software companies).
    It would return power to the user, which is an anathema to the Corporations and Government.
    Yes.. it would :>. Tracking cookies, for instance, would be a thing of the past.

    But there are also things you can do with access to full-on API's and the processors of a system and being removed from the limitations of a website, that would simply shred websites. Once you can finally free yourself of the confines of The Document(which is why I tend to loathe HTML), the sky is the limit.
    Last edited by chrisa; 07 Jul 2013 at 12:05.
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  4. #164


    Posts : 1,925
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    Quote Originally Posted by lehnerus2000 View Post
    Even though HTML and JavaScript (especially) are rubbish, how can appsites possibly work?

    Each of these appsites will have to be coded for every OS.
    How is that any different to what we have today (i.e. software for Windows, software for Mac & software for Linux)?
    Apparently, you're not aware of development frameworks like Titanium Studio, in which you develop in one environment and it generates code specific to each mobile device.

    Titanium Studio | Mobile App Development | Appcelerator Inc.
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  5. #165


    Posts : 302
    Windows 7 on the desktop, Windows 8 Surface Pro mobile


    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by lehnerus2000 View Post
    Even though HTML and JavaScript (especially) are rubbish, how can appsites possibly work?

    Each of these appsites will have to be coded for every OS.
    How is that any different to what we have today (i.e. software for Windows, software for Mac & software for Linux)?
    Apparently, you're not aware of development frameworks like Titanium Studio, in which you develop in one environment and it generates code specific to each mobile device.

    Titanium Studio | Mobile App Development | Appcelerator Inc.
    Most actual real-world examples I've seen.. they usually just have some coders plow out for a new platform over a week or two after the design and resources have been made and locked in, slap it in the store, and call it good. But then, most apps aren't heavy on code.
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  6. #166


    Adelaide
    Posts : 1,338
    Windows 7 Ultimate SP1 (64 bit), Linux Mint 17.1 MATE (64 bit)


    Quote Originally Posted by Rymax99 View Post
    I don't see how you can say HTML is rubbish, it's the core of web design, formatting, etc.
    Indeed it is.

    An example is page layouts; Tables (old HTML) vs Divisions (HTML5).
    Divs are a pain to use compared to tables.
    Instead of deprecating tables in favour of divs, they should have just improved tables.

    Another example is alignment.
    When they created the syntax for HTML5/CSS3, they made it more complicated to align content.
    If you want to centre a picture inside a div you can use {text-align: center;}.
    If you want to vertically align text you have to use {line-height: xx;}.

    You can achieve similar results by messing around with margins and padding.

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisa View Post
    You do understand that once you have the system locked down such that the run-time compiler prevents source code from running off its rails, you can write code for apps in any language you want. Right?
    I'm not saying your idea is right or wrong.

    I guess I'm missing the point you are trying to make.

    My interpretation of what you are saying is, you download code and run it on your machine.
    How is that different to the current local program model (e.g. Office for Windows, Office for Mac)?

    It flies in the face of all of the hype about everything becoming a web app and running from the "Cloud".
    I've also seen articles where people have suggested that everything should be written in JavaScript, presumably to facilitate this.

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisa View Post
    The document structure of it is very constrictive. People have to do cartwheels and thread a needle to get anything outside of the ordinary to work.
    Agreed.
    If you want to do anything "tricky", you have to resort to JavaScript (at the bare minimum).

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisa View Post
    The entire point of the web using HTML in the early days was to pass ever progressively complex documents as text, so that you couldn't pass viruses. Then they came up with Java as a way to user-side the code, and its always had security holes. That was finally solved with the walled garden and truly locking the system away from the RT compiler.
    I not sure I agree with the idea that HTML was designed to defeat malware.
    IMO, it is merely a side effect of how limited HTML is (as you stated yourself).

    As for Java, when my friend and I first read about it (many years ago) one of the first things that occurred to us was, it would be a deadly menace to the security of a PC.
    The only surprising thing is how long it has taken for that hypothesis to become a reality.

    Flash has only recently been dethroned as the main malware vector for Windows PCs, by Java.
    I guess it goes to show how badly coded Adobe Flash really was/is.

    I don't know anything about the "inner mysteries" of RT.
    However it remains to be seen if it is (and the apps using it are) actually immune to malware.

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisa View Post
    It also has very constrictive confines as to what can actually be done.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere View Post
    Apparently, you're not aware of development frameworks like Titanium Studio, in which you develop in one environment and it generates code specific to each mobile device.
    Thanks for that link.

    I was only reading an article (on TechRepublic, a few days ago) about a (free) program that can convert basic HTML code into PHO, JavaScript, or ASP code.

    My Web Design course requires us to know how to "code everything by hand".

    It was the same when I studied Linux servers.
    We had to be able to configure everything using the Terminal and "vim" (no GUI tools).
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  7. #167


    i've also read the full fledged review of the upcoming upgrade of the current running OS version of the Win .. the new yet to arrive is names as a Blue with new features .. it's to see how efficient one it will be in performance this time
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  8. #168


    So, I just installed 8.1 on my secondary computer from ISO and no earth shattering events took place. Start button doesn't start anything and there's a little fish on the background of the start screen.
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  9. #169


    BELGIUM
    Posts : 503
    WINDOWS 8.1 x64


    Quote Originally Posted by Wenda View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jeffrys View Post
    Windows 8.1 first look: Finally, Windows the way you want

    well not really, did not install 8.1 since in a few months one has to do a fresh install AGAIN.

    If only that can be avoided, then i install 8.1.

    Besides i need smaller icons in the Metro and like to stay on the Metro screen....without the dekstop please......

    So right now Windows is not 'the way i want'.

    Jeff

    Jeff, all that can be achieved, mate.

    If you take a system image of your current setup, you can then install 8.1 and play with it without having to do a re-install
    from scratch when the final is released. When it is released, simply restore the image, and upgrade/update over that.

    8.1 has the smaller icons/tiles on the Start Screen, which does work better than that in W8. You can also go straight to the
    All Apps screen if you prefer it to the start Screen (like me). Both screens are more customizable than those in W8.

    8.1 can be set to either totally ignore the desktop, or totally ignore Metro. It also gives you the choice to run both (again, like
    me).

    If you try my suggested method, and if you like Win 8, I doubt you'll be disappointed.

    Go for it, and good luck!


    Wenda.
    Well Wenda, that icons in the Metro are smaller....did not know that

    That the startscreen can be avoided.....i am surprised, because not so long ago, i made it dlear on the board that i wanted to stay on the Metro screen, but then some guys told me that that would be impossible, since MS would have to start all over again.

    Apparently it is possible, hehehe.

    As for the system image, well yes, BUT if i am on 8.1 for a few months, sure i can restore that 8.0 image, but then it will not be up to date.

    There will be adjustments in the run, so better is to reinstall from scratch then.

    Will give it a try though, am curious.

    thanks

    Jeff
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  10. #170


    Posts : 302
    Windows 7 on the desktop, Windows 8 Surface Pro mobile


    Quote Originally Posted by lehnerus2000 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by chrisa View Post
    You do understand that once you have the system locked down such that the run-time compiler prevents source code from running off its rails, you can write code for apps in any language you want. Right?
    I'm not saying your idea is right or wrong.

    I guess I'm missing the point you are trying to make.

    My interpretation of what you are saying is, you download code and run it on your machine.
    How is that different to the current local program model (e.g. Office for Windows, Office for Mac)?
    The difference being that the code is secure and can run on any device that supports it.

    And more importantly, you are no longer restricted to the confines of a document. As such, things that are very hard to do in something like a webpage, become very easy. You can actually program a site like you would a program, with all the power of a program and the processors at your disposal. Full on 3D animation, voice recognition, embedded sound. To make an analogy, you can take a simple website and turn it essentially into a video game.

    When I said the sky is the limit.. it is. You move out of a garbage format like HTML and the only question really becomes.. what exactly do you want to do? Your website isn't a document anymore, a its full-on application.

    Quote Originally Posted by lehnerus2000 View Post
    It flies in the face of all of the hype about everything becoming a web app and running from the "Cloud".
    The back-end still communicates to the servers and the 'cloud' so to say. If you want two examples of this type of setup, Google Now and Siri both utilize it. But both communicate directly with their respective servers to send commands and receive data from. Neither would ever have worked as a webpage.

    Quote Originally Posted by lehnerus2000 View Post
    I've also seen articles where people have suggested that everything should be written in JavaScript, presumably to facilitate this.
    The problem with JavaScript is that it does not have the deep API's because they could never depend on them. It was designed to work on any system, so the API was always to the least common demoninator of function calls.

    Quote Originally Posted by lehnerus2000 View Post
    Agreed. If you want to do anything "tricky", you have to resort to JavaScript (at the bare minimum).
    And they have the alphabet soup of technologies that spring up every time someone needs something done. The moment you move the design to the client machine, all that stuff is handled natively and easily in code.

    Quote Originally Posted by lehnerus2000 View Post
    I not sure I agree with the idea that HTML was designed to defeat malware.
    IMO, it is merely a side effect of how limited HTML is (as you stated yourself).
    I agree with your assessment. Better way of saying it. The secureness of it was sure a selling point, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by lehnerus2000 View Post
    As for Java, when my friend and I first read about it (many years ago) one of the first things that occurred to us was, it would be a deadly menace to the security of a PC.
    The only surprising thing is how long it has taken for that hypothesis to become a reality.
    Both iOS and RT do not have such issues, because they finally figured out how to put the jackboots to it and build the rails. Literally the moment code tries to run off the rails it gets slapped now. Java is still the insecure thing it has always been, which is the main reason it has never been feasible to use for something like this. Nobody is going to trust a site as an app if they're afraid that its going to scramble their system.

    Quote Originally Posted by lehnerus2000 View Post
    Flash has only recently been dethroned as the main malware vector for Windows PCs, by Java.
    I guess it goes to show how badly coded Adobe Flash really was/is.
    Pretty much.

    Quote Originally Posted by lehnerus2000 View Post
    I don't know anything about the "inner mysteries" of RT.
    However it remains to be seen if it is (and the apps using it are) actually immune to malware.
    Both it and iOS were designed to be secure, so they both are *very* hard to break. The entire reason they went to a run-time compiler is so that the code could be run-through at run-time. They also provide rules that must be adhered to, and the entire code is checked for bad calls before its actually compiled, and then subsequently run.
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