Windows 8 and 8.1 Forums


The Windows 8.1 Start Button Is a Sign of Defeat for MSFT

  1. #11


    Posts : 902
    Win8.1 Pro, Desktop Mode


    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBurns View Post
    Who cares? The people who hate MS already, will continue to badmouth them - the ones who don't hate MS will go along with whatever MS does. It's all a matter of preferences and how you handle the situation....
    Your supposition is just plain wrong...(and is a strawman argument at that)
    Just because people despise tifkam doesn't mean they hate ms. I do not "go along with every thing that ms does".... but neither do I "hate them".

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  2. #12


    Orbiting the Moon
    Posts : 2,975
    Windows 10 x64


    The Windows 8.1 Start Button Is a Sign of Defeat for Microsoft, Users Claim...
    It's just simple talk. Nothing more.
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  3. #13


    Sloe Deth, Californicatia
    Posts : 3,908
    Windows 8 Pro with Media Center/Windows 7


    Jimbo - I agree with your big post up there, but I was in my Ranting and Raving mood. I Don't "hate" Microsoft, I love them! I love Apple Too! I Also like uBuntu! But all of those OS devs have done some badly designed features - For instance starting with uBuntu 10, they removed the Start menu is that as well, and to find the app you wanted to use, sent you into a huge Metro-Style subsystem, where all of the apps were listed alphabetically, as TILES. This was the first use of Tiles, I believe. maybe another OS had something similar, but I think maybe we can blame uBuntu for Metro, because MS copied it slightly.

    The Problem with the uBuntu app screen, is that you never know which apps are actually installed into the OS, cos it lists them ALL. I would keep clicking tiles to start an app and pretty soon I had all of these apps I never wanted.
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  4. #14


    Sloe Deth, Californicatia
    Posts : 3,908
    Windows 8 Pro with Media Center/Windows 7


    Quote Originally Posted by Rickkins View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBurns View Post
    Who cares? The people who hate MS already, will continue to badmouth them - the ones who don't hate MS will go along with whatever MS does. It's all a matter of preferences and how you handle the situation....
    Your supposition is just plain wrong...(and is a strawman argument at that)
    Just because people despise tifkam doesn't mean they hate ms. I do not "go along with every thing that ms does".... but neither do I "hate them".
    I agree 100. I hate SOME of the stuff in Windows 8 but on the whole I am almost as fanatical about it as Cokey! I have always liked Microsoft as well, and I have always liked Apple too, I do not hate their OS's I love them, I just hate certain dumb stupid policies.

    On the Microsoft side, I loathed and Despised, always, any idea that I had to "activate" my OS. I have been pushing Free Access ever since WGA was introduced into XP. WGA equals Death. On the Apple side, I HATE DRM. DRM is Death. It is not "Intellectual Property Protection". I also loathe and despise Apple's policies that refuse me permission to install ANY iOS version I please. I want to BEAT that, if I were an iOS developer I would try to remove that block. It is suppression, pure and simple. Because when I give somebody MONEY for a product, that PRODUCT is now mine to do what I want with. When I bought my Mobile Home, it became MY Mobile Home, and it is up to me to keep it working right. Putting that in the light of "Activations" - What if I had to UPDATE my Mobile Home, what if I had to ACTIVATE it? That's a ridiculous concept, see? When MONEY changes hands so does some level of OWNERSHIP. Carry this a little further: I buy a Mobile Home. I cant use it until I Activate it. Then there are monthly Upgrades from the manufacturer that fall out of the Sky on Broadband.

    Well, if my house was on a Holodeck, maybe this could happen. Then I would have to get B'elanna Torres to come and fix my "Mobile Emitter" - But she will refuse to do it, cos I am running a cracked and patched version of Mobile Holodeck Home version 1.0.

    Maybe I could get Seven of Sixty-Nine to use her Nanoprobes to bypass all of that.

    There was a great Trek parody on YooTube, where Picard is trying to Raise Shields, but the computer refuses because his "Trial" had expired. Then the Romulans blow him to Bits.
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  5. #15


    Posts : 219
    Windows 8.1 Pro 64 Bit


    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo45 View Post
    Hi there.

    You don't need to move back and forth to the start screen and desktop to access your programs.

    1) Simply pin any programs you want to appear on the DESKTOP (just like W7). To do this simply open the file location via right mouse click and when you are in file explorer right click on the .EXE file and SEND TO DESKTOP.

    2) Other programs which you regularly use a lot but don't want on the desktop -- pin to taskbar -- for example I have OUTLOOK, Snipping tool, VMWARE workstation etc.

    3) For a menu like system simply create a custom toolbar with the programs you want to appear .

    Then you've got an almost identical situation that you had in W7. The only annoying feature is you have to initially click desktop to get to the desktop. With 8.1 you can BOOT DIRECTLY TO THE DESKTOP so you never even have to SEE the metro stuff if you don't want to. Actually now that some of these applications can be made to work in re-sizeable windowed mode and with multi - monitors there could be use for them after all -- I wouldn't mind for instance having a small re-sizeable window showing Real Time Market data while I'm working for example. Possible now in 8.1

    Making Metro full screen only or even Half screen (side by side) was a BIG BIG boo boo for desktops / multi-monitor systems -- especially for those with large monitors which an ever increasing number of us do have these days. I suspect even tablet users like plugging in to a large monitor from time to time - especially if they want to watch a movie. Fixing that issue should also make 8.1 a lot more acceptable.

    Anyway here's my current W8 - with some desktop icons, some applications pinned to the task bar and a "menu" type system using a custom tool bar.

    I think the W8.1 system actually is a lot more promising than most people here are saying - and if the install standard applications is fixed so it doesn't generate a myriad of tiles then it will be fine.

    Cheers
    jimbo
    Pinning to desktop is not the same as having a dedicated start menu. To get there you still have to minimize all your running apps which translates to not the same thing at all. The beauty of the start menu was it's organization. It worked well with years and years of install conventions such that it when programs would install, they would load basic functions into a folder which would display in alphabetical order under all programs. Quick, easy. Now we get a page that eventually becomes chock full of difficult to find icons. I have been using it since October, and I still think it sucks. It still amazes me how many people are up for siding with Microsoft on this one. Just give folks a choice, and make everyone happy. Such a simple, and yet more and more revolutionary concept in this modern age.
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  6. #16


    this is not any defeat as if there is something being reinstalled this is happening because there is a better efficiency of the feature which demands its come back for a good .. I've no problem if see a start button again in the newer upcoming versions of the latest Win 8 OS...
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  7. #17


    Hafnarfjörður IS
    Posts : 4,376
    Linux Centos 7, W8.1, W7, W2K3 Server W10


    Quote Originally Posted by XweAponX View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rickkins View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBurns View Post
    Who cares? The people who hate MS already, will continue to badmouth them - the ones who don't hate MS will go along with whatever MS does. It's all a matter of preferences and how you handle the situation....
    Your supposition is just plain wrong...(and is a strawman argument at that)
    Just because people despise tifkam doesn't mean they hate ms. I do not "go along with every thing that ms does".... but neither do I "hate them".
    I agree 100. I hate SOME of the stuff in Windows 8 but on the whole I am almost as fanatical about it as Cokey! I have always liked Microsoft as well, and I have always liked Apple too, I do not hate their OS's I love them, I just hate certain dumb stupid policies.

    On the Microsoft side, I loathed and Despised, always, any idea that I had to "activate" my OS. I have been pushing Free Access ever since WGA was introduced into XP. WGA equals Death. On the Apple side, I HATE DRM. DRM is Death. It is not "Intellectual Property Protection". I also loathe and despise Apple's policies that refuse me permission to install ANY iOS version I please. I want to BEAT that, if I were an iOS developer I would try to remove that block. It is suppression, pure and simple. Because when I give somebody MONEY for a product, that PRODUCT is now mine to do what I want with. When I bought my Mobile Home, it became MY Mobile Home, and it is up to me to keep it working right. Putting that in the light of "Activations" - What if I had to UPDATE my Mobile Home, what if I had to ACTIVATE it? That's a ridiculous concept, see? When MONEY changes hands so does some level of OWNERSHIP. Carry this a little further: I buy a Mobile Home. I cant use it until I Activate it. Then there are monthly Upgrades from the manufacturer that fall out of the Sky on Broadband.

    Well, if my house was on a Holodeck, maybe this could happen. Then I would have to get B'elanna Torres to come and fix my "Mobile Emitter" - But she will refuse to do it, cos I am running a cracked and patched version of Mobile Holodeck Home version 1.0.

    Maybe I could get Seven of Sixty-Nine to use her Nanoprobes to bypass all of that.

    There was a great Trek parody on YooTube, where Picard is trying to Raise Shields, but the computer refuses because his "Trial" had expired. Then the Romulans blow him to Bits.
    Hi there
    Yes I hate DRM -- if I buy a book or CD I can lend it to whoever I want to, I can play the CD on any possible device that a CD can play on and if I read a book I'm not forced to be only allowed to read it while sitting on "The Bog" say.

    Why if I buy something from iTunes should I not be allowed to play it on my phone, small music player, laptop or whatever. Same with old DVD's -- Laptops were made for travelling -- so if I'm working in the USA and buy a DVD why should I not be allowed to play it when I get back to Europe because of some stupid artificial restriction. ("Regional encoding").

    I'm so against DRM that if I buy an e-book that has DRM on it (a lot don't now thank goodness) I always remove the DRM and upload the e-book to a well known torrent site. I'm not pirating the material as I've paid for it - but that's about the only way I can make a decent protest against the whole DRM stuff.

    However with software it's a little bit more confusing as the "legal bit" says you are only LICENSED TO USE the software - the property remains Microsoft's (assuming Windows). Technically this means Ms could require you to RETURN the software if they wanted you to do it - not sure that they have ever done that though. So while activation is annoying there's not a lot you can do unless enough people could persuade Ms to get into "Open Source" development.

    I don't think activation is really a humungous issue with people these days -- it's a minor inconvenience -- but its intention to stamp out piracy obviously isn't really working all that well if you search for Windows on any of the well known torrent sites.

    (The truth that Ms is losing the war on Piracy can be seen by the fact that with Windows 8 manufacturers are increasingly going for UEFI with secure boot and embedded hardware keys as a further attempt to combat piracy -- never mind how inconvenient this stuff is to people who often want to try other OS'es such as Linux on their systems. However even these mechanisms can be "cloned". The real solution is releasing products out there at a sensible price -- for example Ms had a few W8 upgrade offers in some regions for the equivalent of 14 USD -- who'd try and get a Pirate copy when the real one was available for 14 USD).

    Cheers
    jimbo
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  8. #18


    Sloe Deth, Californicatia
    Posts : 3,908
    Windows 8 Pro with Media Center/Windows 7


    Thank you Jimbo, at least you understand. I have had days long arguments with my brother about this cack. See, he Agrees with DRM and Activations and Protections and "Intellectual Property" - But he is a composer, so he wants to make sure he gets paid for the use of his compositions. And I agree with that as well, but I have pointed out to him that he always does a version of a composition made by someone else. That's theft as well, unless you gain written permission from the Author or Licensing from Harry Fox.

    But I regurgitate this concept that I'm "Renting" Windows 8 from MS- Because it is a PHYSICAL Product - a Disk. It is not just code, it exists in the world on a non digital plane of existence in stores and on my Bookshelf. If they want it back from me, I'll MAIL them every MS Disk I own! It will flood their receiving dock!

    I strip DRM from Books, CD's and Movies instantly. It is my right to view these things without that cack being on the medium, but I never re-distribute any of it, it stays on my DVD collection.

    But the reason why so many people, and the amount is rising by a staggering rate - Is simply because the protections EXIST. Microsoft creates it's own Piracy Niche, and so does Apple by having DRM. There is this thing called Free Trade, which is also legal, and those things stifle Trade.

    Because most transactions in the world are conducted not in stores or on Ebay or Amazon, but between private individuals. I recently traded a huge networking job including several copies of Windows 7 x32 and 64 for a new Drive Train for my Truck. It was my choice to offer it, and the customer's choice to do the work for me. This is in fact how most of the trade in the world is conducted - So I do the jobs as best as I can and I maintain the work I do and I guarantee it, even beyond any 90 day warranty cycle. I guarantee my work FOREVER just like my Martin D-18 acoustic guitar has a LIFETIME warranty which is transferrable forever- Because Martin stands behind their products. Now that guitar cost my Mom 700 bucks in 1980, and it is now worth about 2 grand. Because of this quality of craftsmanship, the product never becomes obsolete, and always increases in Value yearly.

    So - What happened when the MP/RIAA convinced the Government to try to crack down on these activities? They went underground - FAR underground. The US Government even had the audacity to try to convince other countries to accommodate this Victorian Law - And this increased the activity inside of the US and also outside of the US. They eventually pushed it into China - Where they have no intention of stopping it.

    When these idiotic laws are removed, this activity will decrease, and actual sales of products will rise. But I don't see the Music Industry or the Film Industry as being in any eminent danger of going broke, because the MPAA and the RIAA take their pounds of flesh - From the Artists and Filmmakers themselves in the form of exorbitant FEES.

    This is why all personal music I perform and write has been carefully removed the the so called protection of the RIAA, and I can care less if anyone releases any of my music, just give me credit and ask me, personally. Or I'll sue the foog out of you, and I have done this. Most people now who want to use my work, ask me, and I give them written permission, and then they write me a check, which comes to me, not the RIAA.
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  9. #19


    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBurns View Post
    Who cares? The people who hate MS already, will continue to badmouth them - the ones who don't hate MS will go along with whatever MS does. It's all a matter of preferences and how you handle the situation....
    This might be true for some users, but certainly doesn't represent all of us. I'm getting along file with Windows 8 these days, but it's because I have used the 3rd party utilities to make it work as I want/need/desire for it to work.

    While I'm not enamored with Windows 8, and I don't have a Windows Phone, doesn't mean that I hate Microsoft.
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  10. #20


    Sloe Deth, Californicatia
    Posts : 3,908
    Windows 8 Pro with Media Center/Windows 7


    This is true - I NEVER just "Go Along" with that MS does, and I'll badmouth them all I want, I badmouth Apple as well. I Badmouth uBuntu and Austraumi and what I've seen of Chrome OS. I just like to Badmouth OS Devs, and so do a lot of other people - Until the Devs start doing what we want. I've been looking for a Windows alternative for ages, I tried Wine but it basically does not work. If there were some OS I could use that can accept my Programs, I would move to it maybe- And I will if I find one and Microsoft keeps on the course they have set which is a course straight into Rocky Shoals.
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