Interesting debate between Ed Bott and S.J.V. Nichols

Thanks, whs, I missed that one in the mess of Tech emails I get everyday.

I'm gonna have to pay closer attention. :eek:

I'm siding with Ed Bott on this one (not just because I respect him immensely, mind you). ;)

He said what I have mentioned on this forum a number of times. MS is seeking the smart phome and tablet market as well as the PC market and homogenizing the whole experience.

It will serve them well in the long run.
 

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I can't agree at all with Ed Bott AT ALL. Windows 8 will be a BIG FLAT FAILURE. Even more than Windows Me and Vista combined together. I can't see business and big enterprise going with Windows 8 at all. Why? Big business needs complex softwares. Do you think that they will pay huge amounts of dollars to get it wriiten in WinRT or Javascript like MS want them to? No way. Windows 8 need to have separate focus : PC/laptops and mobile devices such as smartphones and tablets. Why changing things that people are used to? I understand that Microsoft want thheir piece out of the mobile market but why the desktop users have to suffers through this single focus interface? I NEVER. EVER. SEEN. Somoene that has an all-in-computer with a touch screen. Even less a touch screen and I believe those are not on the market to be purchased by consumers. All that I've seen is those CRT screens used in restaurants to bill you. And they were crazy expensive for 15 inches.

Why does Microsoft want to "fix" something that isn't broken? I bet that most users will feel so lost between the versions that they might just want to call their "person-that-knows-stuff-about-computers" and say they want their interface back from this ugliness and I would understand that. See how people have reacted to Vista because "it was different"? Ha! Expect that to happen again except that now it will be a bigger "WTF".

Like I said above, I understand what Microsoft wants and I think it's OK but destroying what people have learned for years in the desktop/laptop department won't do them any good at all. Leave the touch and Javascript programming to the mobile device and keep the keyboard, mouse and regular programming (C, C++, C#, VB.net, Java, etc) to the PC and laptop area.

God.
 

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I still think Windows eight as this preview presents it will be more benefit to Micro$oft than the great majority of users with a PC. I don't view a tablet or a cell phone as a PC, but MS seems to want us to. If Metro will be a homogenous mix with a PC OS in the RTM, it will be much like bloatware OEM's add to their machines now.
 

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Again, I disagree with the two posts above. Have y'all actually used the Metro Interface for any length of time?

I have. I like it. It flips to my main apps when I want it to but it's alway there when I run the mouse to the left side of the screen.

Seriously, MSFT is going in the right direction with this, IMHO.

Imagine the comfort you'll have when you pick up your smart phone or tablet and have, basically, the same interface.

Granted, a "full-fledged" PC will always have more options and more powerful programs ... for now ... :cool:
 

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The problem is that MS is caught between a rock and a hard place. They have to go after this tablet/smartphone market to keep up with the crowd and to grow. On the other hand they have to eveolve the PC system.

The option of producing 2 seperate systems is probably prohibitive from a cost point of view. So I am afraid that we will have to live with this mush until they get some better ideas. But I have to agree; the current UI is awkward for a smooth operation with keyboard and mouse.
 

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Have y'all actually used the Metro Interface for any length of time?

Why do people assume disagreement always comes from no good reason? I've used it and I hate it. In fact, I'm using it and hating it at the same time. It's been on my laptop since the dev release came out.

MS has the right general concept but to me the execution is pathetic. Maybe they'll improve it. My guess is it won't be improved well enough until Windows 9. Meantime, Metro can go to hell. You're correct that the phone, tablet and PC will have the same interface. You also won't be able to run the same apps on ARM devices and x86 PCs. Can't wait to see the faces on people who buy stuff not knowing this and find out after the fact. What about switching business to Windows 8? Business people care about business stuff, and maybe Metro can handle that for them well, but as I see it, Metro is for everything that will get you fired.
 

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Have y'all actually used the Metro Interface for any length of time?

Why do people assume disagreement always comes from no good reason? I've used it and I hate it. In fact, I'm using it and hating it at the same time. It's been on my laptop since the dev release came out.
Sorry about that, it was a legitimate question, however.

The more I use the Metro Start interface, the more I like it.
That's my experience and, from what I can see so far, I appear to be in the minority.
I can respect other's opinions but only after they've given the Metro Start a fair shake. I apologize for implying you haven't (I've got to be a bit more careful in the future how I word my responses - again, my apologies)
 

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...Do you think that they will pay huge amounts of dollars to get it wriiten in WinRT or Javascript like MS want them to? No way.

Where does it say they have to? And where does it say they have to use the new interface? You do know it can be turned off with a simple edit to group policy or the registry, right?

why the desktop users have to suffers through this single focus interface?

Their are two interfaces in Windows 8, not one. So their is nothing to suffer.

Leave the touch and Javascript programming to the mobile device and keep the keyboard, mouse and regular programming (C, C++, C#, VB.net, Java, etc) to the PC and laptop area.

Umm how does adding Javascript to the mix of programming languages make things bad? You can continue to use C++, *.NET and all the other programming languages you learned. Javascript was merely added as another option, what is the big deal about that?

I think you need to step back and take one giant chill pill.
 

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Mikedl - no apology necessary, I'm not jumping down your throat, don't want to give you that impression myself. I've got no beef with anyone who likes it. Like I said, I'm glad to see MS thinking in this direction. It's just that I find Metro geared more toward a tablet or phone, plus I don't think it looks so hot. The other day I watched some video with Paul Thurrott, who said Metro was "beautiful" or "gorgeous" or something like that. In find it incredibly pedantic looking, like a bulletin board for 4th graders, bloatish, intrusive. I understand this is the developer preview, I know it's gonna be more mouse/keyboard friendly, etc., but they're gonna have to seriously overhaul this crap before it becomes useful to me. Other parts of 8 I love, just not Metro.
 

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In find it [Metro Start Menu] incredibly pedantic looking, like a bulletin board for 4th graders, bloatish, intrusive.

Hi, again, Colonel Travis, and thanks for the reply. :)

Actually, the Metro Start Menu is less of a bloat than anything previous.
You can customize it to your heart's content.
Call it pedantic, if you wish, but I think that's the wrong term. More like simple and easier to pare down the apps you normally use into a quick and fast interface allowing you access to them.

Again, I understand I am in the minority here but that's OK.

We'll see how this develops but I don't expect to see any big changes in the future releases as it goes through Beta, RTM and final. JMO - I could be wrong.
 

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Actually, the Metro Start Menu is less of a bloat than anything previous.
You can customize it to your heart's content.

Yes, and thank goodness you can customize it. But I took off almost every box MS put on there, and I had to do it one at a time. Plus when you install programs, and since Metro is I guess the new start menu, you get a box for all sorts of things you installed - not just the program itself, but the uninstall exe, the setup wizard box, program support, etc. Depends on what the software vendor included. You'd get this same stuff in the start menu (if you clicked the option to include it in the start menu), but it was all under one folder and you could get rid of everything at once if you decided you didn't want it. Metro - at least now - does not allow that one-step dump. Instead you get a bunch more boxes to delete one at a time and it's a pain. I could very well be ignorant about a way to do a multiple Metro box dump - am I missing something?

Now that MS offers apps, how many are they gonna shove on there automatically? What about people who buy a PC instead of building one (which is almost all of them)? If you thought the bloatware was bad for those machines, wait til a bunch of apps get piled on top of that.
 

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Indeed, Colonel Travis, it will be interesting. I was frustrated I could only move one app tile at a time.

I expect that will be changed just as I got an app for my iPhone allowing me to move multiple icons - even across pages.

It's early. I find it odd the naysayers are out in such full-force this soon.

Don't get me wrong - I was a naysayer about Vista. I skipped it. When I got to Win7, I realized what I was missing.

I expect the same thing to happen with Win8 for many. Especially those who use multiple devices as I do.
 

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...Do you think that they will pay huge amounts of dollars to get it wriiten in WinRT or Javascript like MS want them to? No way.

Where does it say they have to? And where does it say they have to use the new interface? You do know it can be turned off with a simple edit to group policy or the registry, right?

why the desktop users have to suffers through this single focus interface?

Their are two interfaces in Windows 8, not one. So their is nothing to suffer.

Leave the touch and Javascript programming to the mobile device and keep the keyboard, mouse and regular programming (C, C++, C#, VB.net, Java, etc) to the PC and laptop area.

Umm how does adding Javascript to the mix of programming languages make things bad? You can continue to use C++, *.NET and all the other programming languages you learned. Javascript was merely added as another option, what is the big deal about that?

I think you need to step back and take one giant chill pill.
1. Maybe but think that when you turn Win8 for the first time and they are welcomed by the Metro atrocity, I don't think they will search for long, they will ditch it.

2. I know. What I meant is if Win8 is installed on a PC or laptop, then, the Metro is not loaded AT ALL. Everything looks like Windows 7 with a few upgrades. And if it installed on a mobile device or a tablet, then, load the touch screen. The only exception that the Metro UI is loaded on a PC is if a touch screen monitor is detected (most of the times on a all-in-one PC). Even then, let the people choose on first boot.

3. Oh yeah... a software that opens with you default browser. No thanks. What I mean by this arrogantness is that Javascript isn't the greatest programming language for desktop application. It's all good for the tablet and mobile devices with Metro on but will do no good for the PC.

For those who come with the "did you tried the Metro UI" question, just seeing screencaptures of it makes me sick. I don't even want to use it.
 

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1. Maybe but think that when you turn Win8 for the first time and they are welcomed by the Metro atrocity, I don't think they will search for long, they will ditch it.

Who is they? Since we are talking about businesses, it will come to the IT department, a simple change in group policy. As Win8 rolls out, grabs the policy, turns off Metro. Greeted by the old classic Windows UI. None-issue.
3. ... It's all good for the tablet and mobile devices with Metro on but will do no good for the PC.

Right...somehow I don't think you have thought this though. Javascript does well on desktops, the entire web uses it. Some of those web applications are just as big and complex as any desktop application. Heck, Adobe made a skimmied down version of Photoshop as a web application.
 

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Who is they? Since we are talking about businesses, it will come to the IT department, a simple change in group policy. As Win8 rolls out, grabs the policy, turns off Metro. Greeted by the old classic Windows UI. None-issue.

True, but if you're a business using XP then what's the incentive to buy 8 over 7? Or the incentive to go from 7 to 8? 7 will be the cheaper option, and even though there are nice improvements with 8, without Metro they aren't that dramatic. Businesses are also more likely to buy ARM portables and then you run into a possible legacy Office problem, which may not be a problem if MS gets Office out there for ARM, which I'd guess they'd do but who knows when. MS is pushing 8 for consumers, not businesses, so 7 ain't goin anywhere anytime soon.

If 8 bombs with consumers, MS will not have business picking up the slack. Perhaps that won't happen but if it's the new Vista - yikes.
 

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WDP isn't win8, so hold the horses.
Agree - MS may have made a mistake releasing the WDP to the general public. Win8 may be getting a more negative image than it deserves.

I myself like to play with it. There are things to be discovered. That is kind of "gaming".
 

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True, but if you're a business using XP then what's the incentive to buy 8 over 7? Or the incentive to go from 7 to 8? 7 will be the cheaper option, and even though there are nice improvements with 8, without Metro they aren't that dramatic.

Windows 7 cheaper? Uhh Windows is not sold like a car it doesn't get cheaper when a new version comes out. The old version is no longer sold. (Unless you work out special deals with Microsoft.) Also, no one ever said anything that business would update in the first place or have incentive to update. But the option to update and continue to use the old UI is there, that is the point you completely missed.

Businesses are also more likely to buy ARM portables and then you run into a possible legacy Office problem, which may not be a problem if MS gets Office out there for ARM
Office for ARM is already in the works, Windows 8 will not be out until 2012, beginning of back to school. Office 2012 it might be called, otherwise Office version 15 will be out with an ARM version. However, for business, Office on ARM is the least of their concerns. Legacy business applications hardly work on new versions of Windows, they will never work on ARM.
 

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1. Maybe but think that when you turn Win8 for the first time and they are welcomed by the Metro atrocity, I don't think they will search for long, they will ditch it.

Who is they? Since we are talking about businesses, it will come to the IT department, a simple change in group policy. As Win8 rolls out, grabs the policy, turns off Metro. Greeted by the old classic Windows UI. None-issue.
3. ... It's all good for the tablet and mobile devices with Metro on but will do no good for the PC.

Right...somehow I don't think you have thought this though. Javascript does well on desktops, the entire web uses it. Some of those web applications are just as big and complex as any desktop application. Heck, Adobe made a skimmied down version of Photoshop as a web application.

1. Yeah, right. I'm unemployed and I am not that familiar with business.
2. I mean, Javascript Application that is not part of the Internet. I mean those, leave them to mobile & tablets.
 

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