Windows 8 and 8.1 Forums


Windows Blue - small look at leaked build 9364

  1. #231


    Hafnarfjörður IS
    Posts : 4,376
    Linux Centos 7, W8.1, W7, W2K3 Server W10


    Quote Originally Posted by Nemix View Post
    Firefox 20 and 21 beta's session manager crashes like mad with build 9369 (x64), Chrome works fine though.
    Hi there
    Using Beta software on even PRE-BETA software seems a bit silly to me. With Ms's unofficial pre-releases the best you can hope for is that standard Ms applications work on it - and even that isn't guaranteed. Anything else that runs should be considered purely a bonus.

    In any case I can't really see the advantages in using any other browser in the up coming releases since IE11 is now standard in these builds - and before final we might even get IE12. IE11 now has proper HTLM 5 and all the other stuff for secure websites -- Bye Bye Flash !!!. (You can still view flash content though by enabling the "Compatibily mode" in IE 11).

    Current W8 uses IE 10 BTW not IE 11 which is now in all the latest leaked builds.

    Cheers
    jimbo

      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  2. #232


    Posts : 203
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    LOL you have to try to be smart about everything correct?

    FYI, we had to use Start8 v1.14 beta with build 9364 for Start8 to work correctly with the first leaked Windows Blue preview.

    Maybe I should have been more careful with my wording, I used the official Firefox 20 with build 9369 and session manager kept crashing I then gave Firefox 21 beta to see if it's any better but session manager still crashes a lot.

    There's no harm in running beta on beta since it's all for testing purposes anyway, how do you think software developers start off on creating compatible software for Windows 8.1?
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  3. #233


    Hafnarfjörður IS
    Posts : 4,376
    Linux Centos 7, W8.1, W7, W2K3 Server W10


    Quote Originally Posted by Nemix View Post
    LOL you have to try to be smart about everything correct?

    FYI, we had to use Start8 v1.14 beta with build 9364 for Start8 to work correctly with the first leaked Windows Blue preview.

    Maybe I should have been more careful with my wording, I used the official Firefox 20 with build 9369 and session manager kept crashing I then gave Firefox 21 beta to see if it's any better but session manager still crashes a lot.

    There's no harm in running beta on beta since it's all for testing purposes anyway, how do you think software developers start off on creating compatible software for Windows 8.1?
    Hi there
    Of course there isn't any harm -- although what I meant was that if you run essentially beta software ON a beta platform you are more likely to encounter errors -- of course people have to test stuff however what some do in general is to take say a stable application and test THAT on a new platform and when that's working OK THEN try the update. That way people will know whether they have to get an update to run your application or can run what they already have.

    The reason is also fairly straight forward -- If your Beta application fails -- is the defect in the Beta software, the beta platform or Both.

    Debugging and fixing is infinitely more complex in this type of scenario. --That's all the purpose of the post was to say. Time is a valuable resource and if you can save some getting a new product out of the door -- IMO it's worth it.

    Cheers
    jimbo
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  4. #234


    Posts : 37
    Windows 8 Pro


    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo45 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ray8 View Post
    How is MSE so much better in Windows 8 than Windows 7 and if so, why can't it be just as good in Windows 7?
    Hi Ray8 -- you've mis-understood -- hope you aren't getting dyslexic like cokie.

    MSE is for W7 NOT W8 .

    The reason security is so much better in W8 is that it's actually designed as part of the kernel -- not as a separate bolt on as it is in W7.

    It's easier to protect components that are part of the kernel itself than protecting what is just another "Application program".

    Most OS's run in two modes "Protected" and "application" mode. Tasks within the kernel can only run in "privilege mode" and it's almost (although not impossible) for a hacker to launch an external program that changes the privilege level.

    MSE and W7 security packages run in "Application" mode -- however they exploit some tricks to change their privilege level so they can make use of internal kernel services.

    W8 knows even if these tricks are exploited that they are external modules and therefore just ignore any privilege level code or calls.

    (I've over simplified the actual process but it should suffice as to what's going on -- a detailed explanation on designing OS's can easily be found all over the web if you are interested).

    Cheers
    jimbo
    User/kernel mode isn't new to windows 8. It's been a fundamental element of the NT kernel since it was created 20 years ago.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  5. #235


    Hafnarfjörður IS
    Posts : 4,376
    Linux Centos 7, W8.1, W7, W2K3 Server W10


    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo45 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ray8 View Post
    How is MSE so much better in Windows 8 than Windows 7 and if so, why can't it be just as good in Windows 7?
    Hi Ray8 -- you've mis-understood -- hope you aren't getting dyslexic like cokie.

    MSE is for W7 NOT W8 .

    The reason security is so much better in W8 is that it's actually designed as part of the kernel -- not as a separate bolt on as it is in W7.

    It's easier to protect components that are part of the kernel itself than protecting what is just another "Application program".

    Most OS's run in two modes "Protected" and "application" mode. Tasks within the kernel can only run in "privilege mode" and it's almost (although not impossible) for a hacker to launch an external program that changes the privilege level.

    MSE and W7 security packages run in "Application" mode -- however they exploit some tricks to change their privilege level so they can make use of internal kernel services.

    W8 knows even if these tricks are exploited that they are external modules and therefore just ignore any privilege level code or calls.

    (I've over simplified the actual process but it should suffice as to what's going on -- a detailed explanation on designing OS's can easily be found all over the web if you are interested).

    Cheers
    jimbo
    User/kernel mode isn't new to windows 8. It's been a fundamental element of the NT kernel since it was created 20 years ago.
    Hi there
    It's even older than that -- IBM mainframe systems such as MVS had this around 1970 -- although they implemented it also with the aid of hardware --there was an area in Protected Memory in the Hardware (a bit like the BIOS in a PC) called a PSW (Program status word) which if Bit 15 (I think --so long ago I can't remember) was set to a '1' the code was operating in "Supervisor or Privilege" state and if '0' was in normal application mode. A privileged part of the Supervisor Nucleus (The kernel equivalent in today's OS'es) would issue what was known as an SVC (supervisor call) which would set the PSW status to a 1 or 0 depending on whether application mode or privileged mode was required.

    However the point of the post was to say that the security modules in W7 were essentially called by an Application level program while in W8 the security was embedded into the kernel.

    The logic of what the program did to defend against viruses was essentially the same --MSE in W7 and Windows defender in W8 but the actual mechanics of how the program operated were very different in the two OS'es.

    Cheers
    jimbo
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  6. #236


    Posts : 37
    Windows 8 Pro


    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo45 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo45 View Post

    Hi Ray8 -- you've mis-understood -- hope you aren't getting dyslexic like cokie.

    MSE is for W7 NOT W8 .

    The reason security is so much better in W8 is that it's actually designed as part of the kernel -- not as a separate bolt on as it is in W7.

    It's easier to protect components that are part of the kernel itself than protecting what is just another "Application program".

    Most OS's run in two modes "Protected" and "application" mode. Tasks within the kernel can only run in "privilege mode" and it's almost (although not impossible) for a hacker to launch an external program that changes the privilege level.

    MSE and W7 security packages run in "Application" mode -- however they exploit some tricks to change their privilege level so they can make use of internal kernel services.

    W8 knows even if these tricks are exploited that they are external modules and therefore just ignore any privilege level code or calls.

    (I've over simplified the actual process but it should suffice as to what's going on -- a detailed explanation on designing OS's can easily be found all over the web if you are interested).

    Cheers
    jimbo
    User/kernel mode isn't new to windows 8. It's been a fundamental element of the NT kernel since it was created 20 years ago.
    Hi there
    It's even older than that -- IBM mainframe systems such as MVS had this around 1970 -- although they implemented it also with the aid of hardware --there was an area in Protected Memory in the Hardware (a bit like the BIOS in a PC) called a PSW (Program status word) which if Bit 15 (I think --so long ago I can't remember) was set to a '1' the code was operating in "Supervisor or Privilege" state and if '0' was in normal application mode. A privileged part of the Supervisor Nucleus (The kernel equivalent in today's OS'es) would issue what was known as an SVC (supervisor call) which would set the PSW status to a 1 or 0 depending on whether application mode or privileged mode was required.

    However the point of the post was to say that the security modules in W7 were essentially called by an Application level program while in W8 the security was embedded into the kernel.

    The logic of what the program did to defend against viruses was essentially the same --MSE in W7 and Windows defender in W8 but the actual mechanics of how the program operated were very different in the two OS'es.

    Cheers
    jimbo
    Yes, I'm aware the concept goes back much further than that. I was referring specifically to Windows. I guess I misunderstood your point. Now that I get it, I'm still not sure it's a good idea to have an application's functionality embedded into the kernel, but Microsoft apparently sees things otherwise, and so long as it doesn't affect system stability (which it apparently doesn't) I guess it's not that big of a deal.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

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Windows Blue - small look at leaked build 9364
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