Windows 8 and 8.1 Forums


Not so tough times for Microsoft and Surface

  1. #31


    Hafnarfjörður IS
    Posts : 4,376
    Linux Centos 7, W8.1, W7, W2K3 Server W10


    Quote Originally Posted by chrisa View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo45 View Post
    Hi there
    apart from gamers (a niche market as there are other platforms now for gaming such as XBOX etc) who REALLY needs Teragaflop processing power Even in large server farms FAST I/O is probably more important and for typical people even an i3 is more than sufficient.
    Gaming on the PC has always been lightyears ahead of the XBOX lol.

    As per who needs the processing power? We honestly don't know yet. Its just like the old saying misattributed to Gates 'Who is going to need more than 640K of ram?'. People will find uses for it. But this isn't an incremental upgrade by any means, the Xeon Phi has 50+ cores, all in the form factor of a video card brick that fits in your PCI-e slot. a Teraflop is a Trillion floating point calculations per second.

    Per Wikipedia: ' a single-core 2.5-GHz processor has a theoretical performance of 10 billion FLOPS = 10 GFLOPS'

    You're talking a daughterboard thats 100x faster than current systems are at number crunching. It is not incremental. What could this be used for? Advanced flight simulators, space simulators, physics implementation in MMORPG's, speeding up Rendering, speeding up Video Editing, Running your House.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo45 View Post
    Desktop computing IS in terminal decline -- it will of course soldier on for a few years yet but in a hugely diminishing market -- the whole nature of work is changing -- for example Smart meters in houses for utilities can eventually generate the bills themselves and the only thing the utility company has to do is issue default notices to late or non payers -- a whole layer of office staff now have GONE (thankfully not "off shored").
    Where we disagree is with the word Terminal. Decline yes, terminal no. PC's aren't going anywhere. They simply won't be as used as they have been in the past, when that was simply the only option available. They simply need to make sure they do things that the mobile products can't. Things for which you need the size and space that the form factor of a full PC provides.
    Hi there
    I think these will be specialized boxes rather than a "PC". This makes more sense anyway as things like flight simulators etc aren't by nature of the beast going to be very portable. Even a "VR headset" is unlikely to give you the PHYSICAL movements you need to feel when using a flight simulator.

    I wasn't saying COMPUTING POWER wasn't needed -- just for the typical HOME USER of a PC the processing power of even a low end laptop exceeds whatever they are likely to do on a PC. Other devices such as Holographic stuff, 3-D, Virtual reality and all sorts of other pieces of kit that don't even have a name yet or exist only in our imaginations will of course need HUGE exponential increases in compute power - but these aren't by any definition a "PC".

    Cheers
    jimbo

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  2. #32


    Posts : 1,770
    Windows Phone 6, Windows CE 5, Windows Vista x32, Windows 7 x32/x64, Windows 8 x64


    @chrisa

    Niche markets are niche markets and they can be profitable as long as they service a specific need and there is little to no competition. To that end, is the Surface Pro an entity on its own, with nothing else in the market offering anything similar? Microsoft has suddenly created an iPad?

    I also said that Apple is facing fierce competition from Samsung. The 7"-8" tablets have forced Apple to respond and their 7" tablet is eating away at the 10" iPad market. Doesn't that actually say something about the market overall? Large tablets are falling out of favour, being supplanted by smaller tablets.

    Smaller tablets by default are going to be limited in capability and that is not a space for the Surface Pro and its ilk. The Surface Pro doesn't even enter into the competitive ring as far as the general consumer is concerned when it comes to tablets. The Surface RT and its ilk are in the same boat. Line up the Apple, Android and Windows RT tablets and associated apps, and see which get a dance and which ends up as a wall flower.

    I have no doubt that you believe that laptops are dead, considering the other beliefs that you have stated, but I think you've put way too much faith on tablets and the Surface Pro in particular. Only time will tell.
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  3. #33


    Posts : 302
    Windows 7 on the desktop, Windows 8 Surface Pro mobile


    Quote Originally Posted by Ray8 View Post
    @chrisa

    Niche markets are niche markets and they can be profitable as long as they service a specific need and there is little to no competition. To that end, is the Surface Pro an entity on its own, with nothing else in the market offering anything similar? Microsoft has suddenly created an iPad?
    Yes(as in its created a new device line like Apple did with the iPad). But given its price, it doesn't have to move the same units as the iPad to justify its success. Right now there is really nothing like it on the market and it taps a segment of buyers that the iPad can't touch. The only people who go for an iPad over a SP are people that don't need the added capability that the SP provides. Likewise, those who go SP... aren't going to find the capability they need buying an iPad. Its like the difference between a compact passenger car and a pickup truck. Pickup trucks are hardly a niche market, but they do move less units than passenger cars.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray8 View Post
    I also said that Apple is facing fierce competition from Samsung. The 7"-8" tablets have forced Apple to respond and their 7" tablet is eating away at the 10" iPad market. Doesn't that actually say something about the market overall? Large tablets are falling out of favour, being supplanted by smaller tablets.
    Sure. It says that 7" is the sweet spot for pure tablets. Surface Pro isn't a pure tablet though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray8 View Post
    Smaller tablets by default are going to be limited in capability and that is not a space for the Surface Pro and its ilk.
    Of course not, but then you seem to be riding the wacky bus in thinking that MSFT would release a 7" version of the Surface Pro, which implies you still don't understand the device. They'd release a 7" version of the Surface Mini(a refactored RT that could solely run the apps) to compete in that line. Surface Pro is its own thing and 10" is the ideal form factor for it and it has absolutely no competition atm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray8 View Post
    The Surface Pro doesn't even enter into the competitive ring as far as the general consumer is concerned when it comes to tablets.
    Correct. But then, its not trying to. All pure tablets will be 7" from here on out and be their own device line completely seperate from the Surface Pro. Whether the RT can be refactored to a 7" Mini and compete in that line of products remains to be seen. It certainly can't compete at 10". The market has proven that. Of course, the market is also realizing that the 10" Original iPad can't compete at that form factor either, with having an exact same version of the product at 7". One of them has to go.. and it isn't the smaller one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray8 View Post
    I have no doubt that you believe that laptops are dead, considering the other beliefs that you have stated, but I think you've put way too much faith on tablets and the Surface Pro in particular. Only time will tell.
    Laptops will still hang around for a while, and still be sold as a niche from OEM's.. but they're really going to get factored out as people replace their old clunkers and get the SP. SP is like the Macbook Air of PC's(with pretty much almost the same form factor). The ability to have the functionality of a tablet is just butter.
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  4. #34


    Posts : 302
    Windows 7 on the desktop, Windows 8 Surface Pro mobile


    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo45 View Post
    Hi there
    I think these will be specialized boxes rather than a "PC". This makes more sense anyway as things like flight simulators etc aren't by nature of the beast going to be very portable. Even a "VR headset" is unlikely to give you the PHYSICAL movements you need to feel when using a flight simulator.

    I wasn't saying COMPUTING POWER wasn't needed -- just for the typical HOME USER of a PC the processing power of even a low end laptop exceeds whatever they are likely to do on a PC. Other devices such as Holographic stuff, 3-D, Virtual reality and all sorts of other pieces of kit that don't even have a name yet or exist only in our imaginations will of course need HUGE exponential increases in compute power - but these aren't by any definition a "PC".
    I agree. For the John Doe Grunt, a mobile device works just grand for them. But I firmly believe if all that stuff you mentioned are to take off, it will more than likely be built around the PC form factor. I've said before.. the biggest thing holding back the PC atm is the bottleneck of the single CPU(mind you it can have multiple cores, but that only provides incremental increases).

    What they really, really need for cards like the Xeon Phi to take off is for someone to make like a Direct P API(similar to what Direct X did for video) for interfacing to it. An API that encapsulates and provides a front end for a lot of tasks for which parallel processing is ideal so that such stuff can easily be accessed via applications. Stuff like big number manipulation(where you have numbers in the thousands of digits that require array manipulation), exotic intensive calculations of all types, etc that can be offloaded.
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  5. #35


    Posts : 1,770
    Windows Phone 6, Windows CE 5, Windows Vista x32, Windows 7 x32/x64, Windows 8 x64


    @chrisa

    What makes the Surface Pro unique? I have a 10" tablet that runs Windows 8 without any real issues, but I choose not to run Windows 8 after I tried it on the tablet. There are many other brands around that run Windows 8. The Surface Pro is just another tablet.

    I never suggested that Microsoft would introduce a 7" tablet, merely that it would be a pointless exercise for anyone to do introduce a 7" Windows 8 tablet, for obvious reasons. You must be channelling Bill and his comprehension deficiencies, to think that's what I was suggesting.

    And you now profess to know precisely what form-factor all future tablets will take and that the Surface Pro will be the only Windows 8 10" tablet on the market without competition. Pray tell, why will the Surface Pro rule over all?

    Do you have any of your wacky weed to spare, it'd be interesting to see what world others live in.
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  6. #36


    Hafnarfjörður IS
    Posts : 4,376
    Linux Centos 7, W8.1, W7, W2K3 Server W10


    Hi there
    even a lot of the smaller tablets will be superseded by these:

    Have a look at the new SAMSUNG GALAXY 4 -- I certainly WANT one -- this is probably the maximum size (5 inch screen)that you could conveniently call a "Phone" and that slight increase in screen real estate from the Galaxy IIIs - certainly not a bad phone either -- the 5 inch screen just about pushes the new phone into an area where you don't need an iPad mini (7 inch device).

    That small increase in screen real estate to 5 ins. makes ALL THE DIFFERENCE --it really does. I can see myself getting one of these - and I'm NOT at all disappointed by the Galaxy IIIs either.

    BBC News - Samsung Galaxy S4: First impressions

    I WANT ONE !!!!!

    Now we need a W8 phone to compete with this.

    Bye Bye "Rotten Apples".

    Cheers
    jimbo
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  7. #37


    Posts : 1,770
    Windows Phone 6, Windows CE 5, Windows Vista x32, Windows 7 x32/x64, Windows 8 x64
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  8. #38


    Hafnarfjörður IS
    Posts : 4,376
    Linux Centos 7, W8.1, W7, W2K3 Server W10


    Hi there
    There's "Lacklustre" demands for Ferraris too if you go by these traditional methods of measurement.

    Just because a market is small doesn't mean to say it's non existent or even not profitable.

    Cheers
    jimbo
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  9. #39


    Posts : 302
    Windows 7 on the desktop, Windows 8 Surface Pro mobile


    Quote Originally Posted by Ray8 View Post
    And you now profess to know precisely what form-factor all future tablets will take and that the Surface Pro will be the only Windows 8 10" tablet on the market without competition. Pray tell, why will the Surface Pro rule over all?
    Keeping in mind that when I say Surface Pro, I include all OEM offshoot devices in that. By competition, I mean anything that isn't a Tablet PC(as a rule of thumb.. can it run full Photoshop?) running Windows 8 at 10". If all the competition Microsoft has is from OEM products at 10", they'll be minting money. Either from their own sales or sales of offshoots. Either way, its more Win 8 devices in the field.

    And the uniqueness of the SP(or variants like it), is the ability to both replace a laptop(say Macbook Air) and a tablet(say iPad). Its like asking what the uniqueness of a phablet is? Its the merging of two devices so you only have to buy one.

    And the market has allready spoken on 10" iPads and 10" pure tablets in general. Its less a factor of SP variants(allthough that doesn't help), and with the fact there is a cheaper 7" ipad model that does the same thing. People no longer need a 10" pure tablet, which is why the sales of 10" ipads are collapsing and why the sales of RT went off a cliff. The game in that segment changed.
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  10. #40


    Posts : 302
    Windows 7 on the desktop, Windows 8 Surface Pro mobile


    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo45 View Post
    Hi there
    even a lot of the smaller tablets will be superseded by these:

    Have a look at the new SAMSUNG GALAXY 4 -- I certainly WANT one -- this is probably the maximum size (5 inch screen)that you could conveniently call a "Phone" and that slight increase in screen real estate from the Galaxy IIIs - certainly not a bad phone either -- the 5 inch screen just about pushes the new phone into an area where you don't need an iPad mini (7 inch device).

    That small increase in screen real estate to 5 ins. makes ALL THE DIFFERENCE --it really does. I can see myself getting one of these - and I'm NOT at all disappointed by the Galaxy IIIs either.

    BBC News - Samsung Galaxy S4: First impressions

    I WANT ONE !!!!!

    Now we need a W8 phone to compete with this.

    Bye Bye "Rotten Apples".

    Cheers
    jimbo
    It wouldn't be a bad idea to give any refactored Surface Mini(formerly RT) the ability to be a phablet(maybe even go with a slightly smaller form factor than 7" like Samsung did?), to further differentiate from the Pro. Samsung is doing the same thing as Microsoft and simply bridging devices, except lower down the chain with the phone and tablet.

    There are actually starting to become so many devices i'm really not sure the market can support them all. Something is going to get shaken out. I could definately see Apple getting their lunch eaten from both sides as things center around phablets and convertibles and leave the pure tablet out in the cold. It just depends on if the phablets catch on or not. In all likelihood it could break down as:

    Phone - Phablet - Convertible - PC.

    But time will tell on that.. both the phablets and the convertibles really need to prove their markets(ipad mini allready has), and of course Apple folks are going to play stupid as to why anyone would want either. 400k + OEM sales in a month is a good start, especially given the Surface Pro is only available in the US and Canada.
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Not so tough times for Microsoft and Surface
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