Windows 8 and 8.1 Forums


Not so tough times for Microsoft and Surface

  1. #21


    Posts : 302
    Windows 7 on the desktop, Windows 8 Surface Pro mobile


    What can i say.. I'm multi-talented :>.

    As per the reference on the BOM'd out number for the iPad Mini.. refer to:

    Apple's iPad Mini margins run between 40% and 55% - Computerworld_

    The $300-400 was just a guesstimation on my part. If its higher than that, I would be very shocked. I also forgot to factor in if people got the extended warranty(which often is pure profit).

    And anybody can tell you the iPad does not compete with the Surface Pro as long as they understand the capabilities of each device. They're two entirely different markets based on whether or not you want to be able to run as a laptop with all the functionality of a full PC while preserving all the functionality of a tablet.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIW2 View Post
    You're a marketing pro ?

    I thought you were a windows programmer, as well as an economics professor.

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  2. #22


    Posts : 1,353
    Windows 8 Pro/Windows 8 Pro/Windows 7 64 Bit64Bit/Windows XP


    Quote Originally Posted by SIW2 View Post
    Be fascinating to see what uncle Tim produces from up his sleeve. You might be surprised.
    I thought you and Ray8 were Windows lovers, you seem to be more interested in what Apple does or might do than what Microsoft does.
    I think Uncle Tim might be peeing in his pants right now, he's being attacked by Samsung and Microsoft at the moment. That's the reason he sent his mad little mate Phyllis Diller out to bad mouth Android and the Galaxy S4 the other day.

    Everything they're doing is defensive, I don't think they've got anything left in the tank, they're iPad4 sales dropped by nearly 6 million in one month.

    Oh yeah, Windows phone sales seem to be going up at a reasonable amount as well. The Apple world is shrinking.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  3. #23


    Posts : 302
    Windows 7 on the desktop, Windows 8 Surface Pro mobile


    Quote Originally Posted by Ray8 View Post
    The reality is that the vast majority of people do not need or want a tablet that is a full blown computer. It's almost a niche market. It might be a reasonably sized niche market, but niche none the less.
    You know what we call a niche market that sells 400K devices at $1k+ per in the US alone in its first month(not including OEM sales)?

    A very profitable market. The whole point is to make money and Microsoft just made a ton of it, with a lot more on the way as they open up territories and start getting traction with the new device line. At what point will you stop calling it niche? 1mil devices a month? 2?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray8 View Post
    The only problem that Apple is facing has been created by Samsung who have laid down the gauntlet with 7"-8" tablets, which have created huge interest in a smaller form-factor tablet. Add to that large mobile phones like the S III and IV, that are pretty capable in themselves, and the portable market is covered.
    Oh, thats the only problem eh? Not the fact that the original ipad is winding down and going to be bounced out of the form-factor by the Surface Pro?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray8 View Post
    So that also creates a problem for Microsoft, as no one is going to be interested in a 7" Windows Pro tablet. What can you effectively do with it? You'll have a small screen, it's not going to be powerful, you won't have a good battery life etc. You might make a 7" RT, but then you're competing against an established market with more apps and peripherals than you can point a stick at.
    You would make a 7" RT in a completely different casing and call it the Surface Mini. No hurry. Their mistake was they tried to do both at the same time. They should have done the Surface Pro and then once it gained traction they would have seen they needed a 7" Mini rather than a 10". Hindsight is 20-20, though. The nice part about the way it shook out though is RT really concealed the fact that the Pro was a completely different device line to those who didn't know any better. I doubt they really planned it that way, and i don't think they even had a clue how successful Pro is going to end up being. The whole thing smacks of a 'landing in a pile of s**t, and coming up smelling like a rose.'

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray8 View Post
    And laptop and desktop users get ignored.
    Pure laptops are officially dead in the water. I'm sure OEM's will still continue to sell to some extent, but it'll be a niche market :P.

    Desktop is still getting love from Microsoft as all of the advancements of the touch have been carried over to it. What the Desktop really needs to survive though is to make the next big leap in capability with applications that can take advantage of that and differentiate it from Mobile processors. Something like the Xeon Phi PCI-e Teraflop cards being used in regular PC's to severely boost computational ability.
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  4. #24


    Posts : 302
    Windows 7 on the desktop, Windows 8 Surface Pro mobile


    Quote Originally Posted by BillWindows View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SIW2 View Post
    Be fascinating to see what uncle Tim produces from up his sleeve. You might be surprised.
    I thought you and Ray8 were Windows lovers, you seem to be more interested in what Apple does or might do than what Microsoft does.
    I think Uncle Tim might be peeing in his pants right now, he's being attacked by Samsung and Microsoft at the moment. That's the reason he sent his mad little mate Phyllis Diller out to bad mouth Android and the Galaxy S4 the other day.

    Everything they're doing is defensive, I don't think they've got anything left in the tank, they're iPad4 sales dropped by nearly 6 million in one month.

    Oh yeah, Windows phone sales seem to be going up at a reasonable amount as well. The Apple world is shrinking.
    Or.. as Kosh would say, 'The avalanche has allready started, its too late for the pebbles(Apple) to vote.'. They're being taken apart on all fronts. They'd better hope the Watch is a barnburner with the public. This is really going to be a year of shakeouts for the industry with winners and losers being ultimately decided. Its going to be fun.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  5. #25


    Posts : 1,353
    Windows 8 Pro/Windows 8 Pro/Windows 7 64 Bit64Bit/Windows XP


    Quote Originally Posted by chrisa View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by BillWindows View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SIW2 View Post
    Be fascinating to see what uncle Tim produces from up his sleeve. You might be surprised.
    I thought you and Ray8 were Windows lovers, you seem to be more interested in what Apple does or might do than what Microsoft does.
    I think Uncle Tim might be peeing in his pants right now, he's being attacked by Samsung and Microsoft at the moment. That's the reason he sent his mad little mate Phyllis Diller out to bad mouth Android and the Galaxy S4 the other day.

    Everything they're doing is defensive, I don't think they've got anything left in the tank, they're iPad4 sales dropped by nearly 6 million in one month.

    Oh yeah, Windows phone sales seem to be going up at a reasonable amount as well. The Apple world is shrinking.
    Or.. as Kosh would say, 'The avalanche has allready started, its too late for the pebbles(Apple) to vote.'. They're being taken apart on all fronts. They'd better hope the Watch is a barnburner with the public. This is really going to be a year of shakeouts for the industry with winners and losers being ultimately decided. Its going to be fun.
    As far as I know the Mickey Mouse watch is the only thing they've got left up they're sleeve.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  6. #26


    Posts : 302
    Windows 7 on the desktop, Windows 8 Surface Pro mobile


    Quote Originally Posted by BillWindows View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by chrisa View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by BillWindows View Post
    I thought you and Ray8 were Windows lovers, you seem to be more interested in what Apple does or might do than what Microsoft does.
    I think Uncle Tim might be peeing in his pants right now, he's being attacked by Samsung and Microsoft at the moment. That's the reason he sent his mad little mate Phyllis Diller out to bad mouth Android and the Galaxy S4 the other day.

    Everything they're doing is defensive, I don't think they've got anything left in the tank, they're iPad4 sales dropped by nearly 6 million in one month.

    Oh yeah, Windows phone sales seem to be going up at a reasonable amount as well. The Apple world is shrinking.
    Or.. as Kosh would say, 'The avalanche has allready started, its too late for the pebbles(Apple) to vote.'. They're being taken apart on all fronts. They'd better hope the Watch is a barnburner with the public. This is really going to be a year of shakeouts for the industry with winners and losers being ultimately decided. Its going to be fun.
    As far as I know the Mickey Mouse watch is the only thing they've got left up they're sleeve.
    Dick Tracy!

    Click image for larger version

    And they have the long-rumored Apple iTV (the TV itself, not just the set-top box), but they've pushed that back to 2014 based on 'low yield' or something with the device screens, so it won't help them this year while the manufacturing gets worked out.
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  7. #27


    Hafnarfjörður IS
    Posts : 4,376
    Linux Centos 7, W8.1, W7, W2K3 Server W10


    Quote Originally Posted by chrisa View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ray8 View Post
    The reality is that the vast majority of people do not need or want a tablet that is a full blown computer. It's almost a niche market. It might be a reasonably sized niche market, but niche none the less.
    You know what we call a niche market that sells 400K devices at $1k+ per in the US alone in its first month(not including OEM sales)?

    A very profitable market. The whole point is to make money and Microsoft just made a ton of it, with a lot more on the way as they open up territories and start getting traction with the new device line. At what point will you stop calling it niche? 1mil devices a month? 2?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray8 View Post
    The only problem that Apple is facing has been created by Samsung who have laid down the gauntlet with 7"-8" tablets, which have created huge interest in a smaller form-factor tablet. Add to that large mobile phones like the S III and IV, that are pretty capable in themselves, and the portable market is covered.
    Oh, thats the only problem eh? Not the fact that the original ipad is winding down and going to be bounced out of the form-factor by the Surface Pro?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray8 View Post
    So that also creates a problem for Microsoft, as no one is going to be interested in a 7" Windows Pro tablet. What can you effectively do with it? You'll have a small screen, it's not going to be powerful, you won't have a good battery life etc. You might make a 7" RT, but then you're competing against an established market with more apps and peripherals than you can point a stick at.
    You would make a 7" RT in a completely different casing and call it the Surface Mini. No hurry. Their mistake was they tried to do both at the same time. They should have done the Surface Pro and then once it gained traction they would have seen they needed a 7" Mini rather than a 10". Hindsight is 20-20, though. The nice part about the way it shook out though is RT really concealed the fact that the Pro was a completely different device line to those who didn't know any better. I doubt they really planned it that way, and i don't think they even had a clue how successful Pro is going to end up being. The whole thing smacks of a 'landing in a pile of s**t, and coming up smelling like a rose.'

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray8 View Post
    And laptop and desktop users get ignored.
    Pure laptops are officially dead in the water. I'm sure OEM's will still continue to sell to some extent, but it'll be a niche market :P.

    Desktop is still getting love from Microsoft as all of the advancements of the touch have been carried over to it. What the Desktop really needs to survive though is to make the next big leap in capability with applications that can take advantage of that and differentiate it from Mobile processors. Something like the Xeon Phi PCI-e Teraflop cards being used in regular PC's to severely boost computational ability.

    Hi there
    apart from gamers (a niche market as there are other platforms now for gaming such as XBOX etc) who REALLY needs Teragaflop processing power Even in large server farms FAST I/O is probably more important and for typical people even an i3 is more than sufficient.

    You see on these very Forums how people put Crazy amounts of RAM (32 GB etc) in their machines and have dual i7 processor cards and are STILL disappointed with performance - when the simple matter of replacing a spinner or two by an SSD would yield them far better results.

    Desktop computing IS in terminal decline -- it will of course soldier on for a few years yet but in a hugely diminishing market -- the whole nature of work is changing -- for example Smart meters in houses for utilities can eventually generate the bills themselves and the only thing the utility company has to do is issue default notices to late or non payers -- a whole layer of office staff now have GONE (thankfully not "off shored").

    There's no reason in future why the payment couldn't be sent from the BANK to THE METER instead of the company as well Now that gets rid of another set of people using desktops in a workplace-- the meter is a SMART device and there's a whole scope out their for handling the built in OS'es for these types of devices -- C'mon youngsters - there's money to be made from these types of ideas.

    Computers will be probably only used in a workplace as a tool where Human intuition is required such as when very quick split decisions have to be taken on Stock trading whether to open / buy / sell / close positions etc -- a lot of this stuff can't really be done analytically but often requires "gut feel" by the trader.

    I.T development / maintenance will also require "classical" computing as will forms of Engineering and content "authoring". However for other typical daily commercial jobs this market is dying faster than the Dodo. Computing is NOT disappearing -- just the types of devices that people have been used to for about the last 40 years or so.

    Ms is finally embracing this new era -- not before time I might add.

    Cheers
    jimbo
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  8. #28


    Posts : 302
    Windows 7 on the desktop, Windows 8 Surface Pro mobile


    Quote Originally Posted by SIW2 View Post
    Be fascinating to see what uncle Tim produces from up his sleeve. You might be surprised.
    I'm open to being surprised.

    But you can't turn a company on a dime and unless they've been bs'ing everyone about the prospects of getting a truly touch-capable version of OS X that can work off the Air and their Mac lines, they have absolutely no design path that leads to a Convertible(nor are they likely to even be in the Prototyping stage for one given their insistance that the PC is going away). A simple incremental OS X upgrade won't cut it. And most rumors lead to a Watch(sooner) and a TV(later) being the primary new devices in the pipeline.

    Their entire development model is predicated on the PC being a dead system in favor of mobile and new device lines. If thats not the case, and Microsoft is able to move mobile PC's with all the functionality of a tablet and being touch-capable, they're in real trouble because they've left their PC's out to rot. They allready have enough to deal with from Samsung as it pertains to cellular phones.

    Even Google is making noise and indications that they may start to move to a more fully-functional PC to compete with Windows by evolving the Chrome OS beyond just web pages.
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  9. #29


    Hafnarfjörður IS
    Posts : 4,376
    Linux Centos 7, W8.1, W7, W2K3 Server W10


    Quote Originally Posted by chrisa View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SIW2 View Post
    Be fascinating to see what uncle Tim produces from up his sleeve. You might be surprised.
    I'm open to being surprised.

    But you can't turn a company on a dime and unless they've been bs'ing everyone about the prospects of getting a truly touch-capable version of OS X that can work off the Air and their Mac lines, they have absolutely no design path that leads to a Convertible(nor are they likely to even be in the Prototyping stage for one given their insistance that the PC is going away). A simple incremental OS X upgrade won't cut it. And most rumors lead to a Watch(sooner) and a TV(later) being the primary new devices in the pipeline.

    Their entire development model is predicated on the PC being a dead system in favor of mobile and new device lines. If thats not the case, and Microsoft is able to move mobile PC's with all the functionality of a tablet and being touch-capable, they're in real trouble because they've left their PC's out to rot. They allready have enough to deal with from Samsung as it pertains to cellular phones.

    Even Google is making noise and indications that they may start to move to a more fully-functional PC to compete with Windows by evolving the Chrome OS beyond just web pages.

    Hi there
    absolutely

    Look at the new Samsung S4 !!! I WANT ONE -- and I like my SIII -- this thing will just FLY off the shelves --and it's in the market just at the right time as the economy is showing signs (at last) of turning around for a lot of people.

    Apple TV is DEAD IN THE WATER -- we now have NETFLIX, HULA, SKY GO etc which don't even need set top boxes and more and more TV's are smart TV's with direct Internet connection possibilities etc. (BTW who writes the OS'es for these things --it's a TV but still has an embedded OS in it !!). So the APPLE TV device is out of date before it even appears.

    SKY GO and services like that are even more flexible as they now allow you to download the movie / show and watch it OFFLINE at your own convenience for up to 30 days -- so even if you have slow broadband you can download say at night and then watch the next day (or next week -- at will).

    As for SAMSUNG --look at this.

    BBC News - Samsung Galaxy S4: First impressions

    Anybody get the Apple Core remover out of the kitchen yet as I think we'll have a nice Apple Crumble for our dessert at Lunchtime today.



    Cheers
    jimbo
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  10. #30


    Posts : 302
    Windows 7 on the desktop, Windows 8 Surface Pro mobile


    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo45 View Post
    Hi there
    apart from gamers (a niche market as there are other platforms now for gaming such as XBOX etc) who REALLY needs Teragaflop processing power Even in large server farms FAST I/O is probably more important and for typical people even an i3 is more than sufficient.
    Gaming on the PC has always been lightyears ahead of the XBOX lol.

    As per who needs the processing power? We honestly don't know yet. Its just like the old saying misattributed to Gates 'Who is going to need more than 640K of ram?'. People will find uses for it. But this isn't an incremental upgrade by any means, the Xeon Phi has 50+ cores, all in the form factor of a video card brick that fits in your PCI-e slot. a Teraflop is a Trillion floating point calculations per second.

    Per Wikipedia: ' a single-core 2.5-GHz processor has a theoretical performance of 10 billion FLOPS = 10 GFLOPS'

    You're talking a daughterboard thats 100x faster than current systems are at number crunching. It is not incremental. What could this be used for? Advanced flight simulators, space simulators, physics implementation in MMORPG's, speeding up Rendering, speeding up Video Editing, Running your House.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo45 View Post
    Desktop computing IS in terminal decline -- it will of course soldier on for a few years yet but in a hugely diminishing market -- the whole nature of work is changing -- for example Smart meters in houses for utilities can eventually generate the bills themselves and the only thing the utility company has to do is issue default notices to late or non payers -- a whole layer of office staff now have GONE (thankfully not "off shored").
    Where we disagree is with the word Terminal. Decline yes, terminal no. PC's aren't going anywhere. They simply won't be as used as they have been in the past, when that was simply the only option available. They simply need to make sure they do things that the mobile products can't. Things for which you need the size and space that the form factor of a full PC provides.
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