Windows 8 and 8.1 Forums


Tough Times for Win 8 and MS

  1. #161


    Posts : 1,770
    Windows Phone 6, Windows CE 5, Windows Vista x32, Windows 7 x32/x64, Windows 8 x64


    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    I will not agree to either side of this debut on touch; only because neither side can win.

    The reason I say that is because of where touch has gone in the last few years. And, to see that direction just tune into any sports TV station (ESPN, CBS Sports, NBC Sports, NFL Network, etc. I am sure over countries have their own such sports channels). Also news stations all over the globe use touch TV. The purpose for using touch is because it is much more effective then using a mouse and keyboard. Also doing Corporate presentations and speeches touch makes a presentation much easier to do then the standard keyboard and mouse.

    Touch is here and has been for some time, hence it is not going away. The sooner Apple, and others who are resisting moving in that direction see what is happening the easier it will be in the future for them to move into the world of touch.
    The issue that I see with touch is whether it's a solution to a problem, or a solution looking for a problem. If it's a solution to a problem, what's the problem? If it's a solution looking for a problem, what's the problem we're looking for?

    You can make a process very simple, so that touch can work exceptionally well, such as for a presentation; however, someone has to work hard beforehand, with a keyboard, mouse and whatever, to create that simple, touch, presentation.

    What one often sees on TV etc, is the result of a lot of behind the scenes work by experienced professionals making the complex appear simple, especially for very simple TV presenters.

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  2. #162


    Hafnarfjörður IS
    Posts : 4,376
    Linux Centos 7, W8.1, W7, W2K3 Server W10


    Quote Originally Posted by Ray8 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    I will not agree to either side of this debut on touch; only because neither side can win.

    The reason I say that is because of where touch has gone in the last few years. And, to see that direction just tune into any sports TV station (ESPN, CBS Sports, NBC Sports, NFL Network, etc. I am sure over countries have their own such sports channels). Also news stations all over the globe use touch TV. The purpose for using touch is because it is much more effective then using a mouse and keyboard. Also doing Corporate presentations and speeches touch makes a presentation much easier to do then the standard keyboard and mouse.

    Touch is here and has been for some time, hence it is not going away. The sooner Apple, and others who are resisting moving in that direction see what is happening the easier it will be in the future for them to move into the world of touch.
    The issue that I see with touch is whether it's a solution to a problem, or a solution looking for a problem. If it's a solution to a problem, what's the problem? If it's a solution looking for a problem, what's the problem we're looking for?

    You can make a process very simple, so that touch can work exceptionally well, such as for a presentation; however, someone has to work hard beforehand, with a keyboard, mouse and whatever, to create that simple, touch, presentation.

    What one often sees on TV etc, is the result of a lot of behind the scenes work by experienced professionals making the complex appear simple, especially for very simple TV presenters.
    Hi there
    for certain applications Touch is fine -- Of course you can use other methods just as you can use an ABACUS for the computations required in solving complex functions in Theoretical and Quantum physics --it would take a lot longer but could be done -- same as with TOUCH for other applications.

    Why are people so afraid to use the best tool for the job --OK for lots of people sitting behind a a desktop in say a trading floor in a Finance business or just in a basic office doing say basic HR on a simple back end system Touch isn't an issue -- but on other devices used in different applications it can be fine -- for example expanding window size on a tablet would make a good case in point or if you have a set of screens projected holographically as you see in sopme movies - manipulatimg these by touch also makes perfect sense.

    Have a look also at the screens used in the CIA building shown in that excellent TV series with the Blind agent -- I think it's called Covert Affairs or something like that. A lot of these Hollywood devices do eventually become mainstream -- The original Star trek communicators for example. That program started out long before mobile phones were even thought of as even voice only - now video isn't an issue either any more.

    Cheers
    jimbo
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  3. #163


    South Coast NSW, Australia
    Posts : 615
    Windows 8.1 'Ultimate' RTM 64 bit (Pro/WMC).


    Touch is fine for a phone or a tablet, but not on a desktop or laptop.

    When I replace my desktop (with another desktop, for those who think they're dead) it
    will not be equipped with a touch monitor unless touch can be disabled.

    Same when I replace this laptop.

    Wenda.
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  4. #164


    Posts : 1,353
    Windows 8 Pro/Windows 8 Pro/Windows 7 64 Bit64Bit/Windows XP


    Whats wrong with touch on a monitor?

    New Touchscreen Monitor - YouTube

    Whats up with that?
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  5. #165


    Hafnarfjörður IS
    Posts : 4,376
    Linux Centos 7, W8.1, W7, W2K3 Server W10


    Quote Originally Posted by Wenda View Post
    Touch is fine for a phone or a tablet, but not on a desktop or laptop.

    When I replace my desktop (with another desktop, for those who think they're dead) it
    will not be equipped with a touch monitor unless touch can be disabled.

    Same when I replace this laptop.

    Wenda.

    Hi there
    That's not the real issue here -- the REAL argument is that there are NEW hardware devices coming out that perform applications we wouldn't have even thought about years ago much less even got a chance to use them. A New OS must incorporate the different ways we interact with computers or new hardware devices.

    For instance -- even using a Bog standard laptop -- what about BLIND or visually handicapped users for example --if an OS can't incorporate some some sort of Touch type hardware then you've effectively removed a load of people from ever being able to use computers. - The legacy hardware for this type of stuff is old and slow and running on an OS which didn't incorporate touch into its scenario very much such as W7 didn't help matters either.

    There is NOTHING WRONG with people who just want to stick with a "Bog standard" computer and use it an the classic way -- there's a perfectly capable OS for you to run this called W7 --and it's not that difficult to use W8 either -- bit I think it's about time the Classic Desktop users should realize that they are NOT the future any more so they really shouldn't be calling the shots on how the OS develops in future. IMO they are quite lucky the Desktop even exists on W8 at all (Now that's different from saying it shouldn't be able to run legacy apps).

    If I'd have been designing this OS I'd have made it more like a small HYPERVISOR with Metro and the desktop as two Virtual machines running -- this could have been done very efficiently --a Hypervisor is a TINY OS and the overhead wouldn't have even been noticed.

    If you look at W8 the HYPERVISOR facility is actually already present in the OS.

    Anyway the next generation(s) of the OS will be quite interesting.

    Cheers
    jimbo
    Last edited by jimbo45; 12 Mar 2013 at 04:29.
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  6. #166


    Posts : 1,770
    Windows Phone 6, Windows CE 5, Windows Vista x32, Windows 7 x32/x64, Windows 8 x64


    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo45 View Post
    For instance -- even using a Bog standard laptop -- what about BLIND or visually handicapped users for example --if an OS can't incorporate some some sort of Touch type hardware then you've effectively removed a load of people from ever being able to use computers. - The legacy hardware for this type of stuff is old and slow and running on an OS which didn't incorporate touch into its scenario very much such as W7 didn't help matters either.
    I've worked with visually impaired people and touch is not going to help them at all. Those who are impaired use the magnification features of Windows and those that are blind, use brail keyboards and audible cues, plus audible feedback. Touch is totally useless unless you have haptic feedback, which doesn't exist yet, and that's no different to a brail keyboard and likely worse, as a brail keyboard provides a consistent hand placement.

    Current technology is very effective for visually impaired people. How on earth would the MPI assist these people with using a computer with it's technology fully dependent on having effective vision. That also brings in another aspect, the new MPI requires good physical coordination as well, being able to find just the right spot on the screen for the charming menu etc. If anything, the MPI is a complete disaster for anyone with physical coordination problems or other impairment such as artificial limbs.

    Seriously, if the world went touch on every computer, a whole bunch of people would be alienated in today's world.
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  7. #167


    Hafnarfjörður IS
    Posts : 4,376
    Linux Centos 7, W8.1, W7, W2K3 Server W10


    Hi there
    well then I go back to my other idea -- W8 and future OS'es should just be a tiny HYPERVISOR and then the bits of the OS you want should be run as a Virtual Machine. (Note this should be transparent to the user -- I'm not equating this with running current VM's with software like VMware workstation).

    This is already done in a limited way with Ms's old JVM - Java Virtual Machine which is totally transparent for the user.

    At W8 install time a few simple questions and then it's done. To add / change / remove features then the control panel would work as now. The advantage also would be that you could have DECENT METRO APPS (not the rubbish that's there now) AND a desktop type system running concurrently without having to incorporate code to run both scenarios in the same OS. You could easily bolt on Windows RT and other specific functions / sub functions. - The fact that RT runs as an ARM processor wouldn't matter as the VM on say an INTEL CPU could be compiled in a "Meta Language" which would then create the appropriate CPU instructions for the hardware its running on.

    Maintenance / updates and adding new features would be incredibly easy this way rather than have to write a complete OS from scratch.

    Cheers
    jimbo
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  8. #168


    Posts : 1,353
    Windows 8 Pro/Windows 8 Pro/Windows 7 64 Bit64Bit/Windows XP


    Quote Originally Posted by Ray8 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo45 View Post
    For instance -- even using a Bog standard laptop -- what about BLIND or visually handicapped users for example --if an OS can't incorporate some some sort of Touch type hardware then you've effectively removed a load of people from ever being able to use computers. - The legacy hardware for this type of stuff is old and slow and running on an OS which didn't incorporate touch into its scenario very much such as W7 didn't help matters either.
    I've worked with visually impaired people and touch is not going to help them at all. Those who are impaired use the magnification features of Windows and those that are blind, use brail keyboards and audible cues, plus audible feedback. Touch is totally useless unless you have haptic feedback, which doesn't exist yet, and that's no different to a brail keyboard and likely worse, as a brail keyboard provides a consistent hand placement.

    Current technology is very effective for visually impaired people. How on earth would the MPI assist these people with using a computer with it's technology fully dependent on having effective vision. That also brings in another aspect, the new MPI requires good physical coordination as well, being able to find just the right spot on the screen for the charming menu etc. If anything, the MPI is a complete disaster for anyone with physical coordination problems or other impairment such as artificial limbs.

    Seriously, if the world went touch on every computer, a whole bunch of people would be alienated in today's world.
    Where do you get all this stuff from, now the world is going to end from touch mania. Have you ever heard of SWIPE to the left.
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  9. #169


    Posts : 1,770
    Windows Phone 6, Windows CE 5, Windows Vista x32, Windows 7 x32/x64, Windows 8 x64


    Quote Originally Posted by BillWindows View Post
    Where do you get all this stuff from, now the world is going to end from touch mania. Have you ever heard of SWIPE to the left.
    I think that comment is just sad.
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  10. #170


    Hafnarfjörður IS
    Posts : 4,376
    Linux Centos 7, W8.1, W7, W2K3 Server W10


    Hi there
    Just curious @Ray8

    Do you ever SLEEP. I don't think I've ever logged on to this site at ANY time day or night in the last two or three months when you haven't been active. Do you have one of those new fangled computers that you wear. !!!

    Cheers
    jimbo
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

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