Windows 8 and 8.1 Forums


Microsoft Surface Pro review

  1. #61


    Posts : 1,770
    Windows Phone 6, Windows CE 5, Windows Vista x32, Windows 7 x32/x64, Windows 8 x64


    I don't think I've ever said that I want to specifically help Microsoft, but I do want to point out what I think are failings in the implementation of Windows 8 so that it can be a better OS (in my personal view). It seems that I'm not on my 'Pat Malone' when it comes to this and we are hearing more all the time from all quarters. So Brian, err Bill, this is for you: Eric Idle - "Always Look On The Bright Side Of Life" - STEREO HQ - YouTube.

      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  2. #62


    Posts : 1,353
    Windows 8 Pro/Windows 8 Pro/Windows 7 64 Bit64Bit/Windows XP


    Quote Originally Posted by Ray8 View Post
    I don't think I've ever said that I want to specifically help Microsoft, but I do want to point out what I think are failings in the implementation of Windows 8 so that it can be a better OS (in my personal view). It seems that I'm not on my 'Pat Malone' when it comes to this and we are hearing more all the time from all quarters. So Brian, err Bill, this is for you: Eric Idle - "Always Look On The Bright Side Of Life" - STEREO HQ - YouTube.
    I won't worry about going onto YouTube, I'm on Windows 8 so I can just click on XBMC, lets see, Movies on NAS, there it is Life of Brian, there he is hanging on the cross. It's so complex this Windows 8.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  3. #63


    Some more doom and gloom on RT and Pro tablets.

    Microsoft can't even shift Windows 8 slabs in the middle of a tablet frenzy
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  4. #64


    To be fair, though:

    - The Surface Pro is just now coming to market
    - There was apprarently a lot of confusion and many delays in shipping the Surface RT (wasn't it available only online or in Microsoft stores? I don't know it that's still true.)

    It's premature to seize on the low sales figures and assume that those represent the future of the product line. I think it's going to take time to catch on. How much time, and what the ultimate outcome is, is anyone's guess at this point.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  5. #65


    Quote Originally Posted by BillWindows View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pparks1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by BillWindows View Post
    Lets face facts, if the Media get their way, Microsoft is already dead and buried, it wouldn't matter what they bought out they have to deride it somehow.
    Nonsense, overall the Xbox360 is well liked and Windows 7 was very well received. And Office is the universal standard.

    Quote Originally Posted by BillWindows View Post
    Actually I think even more dangerous for Microsoft is experienced Windows users, from all the Windows and Apple forums I've visited over the years, they're the most vocal and vicious.
    We are the ones who are the most passionate and loyal to Microsoft products. And if we are squawking about issues, then there could be some things to take a look at.
    Oh you mean horrible issues like moving the power button, or getting rid of the Start Menu( which most people never used or got confused over) I could go on, but you get the point.
    BillWindows;

    Well, you don't consider the changes to be horrible and overall you seem to welcome them. Unfortunately, I don't think a lot of people see the appeal in the changes. I'm sorry that this means that your beloved product isn't being universally praised by the masses.

    A subtle change like the movement of the power button is not the issue. The issue with the power button moving is more an issue of things NOT being intuitive. Intuitive means people figure it out on their own, it doesn't mean they have to have somebody sit down and teach them where everything is. Obviously the fear and concern would be that they will run into things over and over and over again which they will have a hard time finding.

    And I don't think that people got that confused over the Start Button. As far as NOT using the Start Button, I cannot help but believe that all of the squawking over the removal of the Start Button seems to indicate to me that far more people were actually using it than you believe. Otherwise the removal of it would be a non-issue. But clearly this is NOT the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by BillWindows View Post
    I watch the news on TV, everything else I get off the Net, I don't buy newspapers or magazines. By Media I mean Tech Media on the net. If you virtually live on the net like I do you'll understand, Microsoft can't do anything right.
    Well, obviously from a historical perspective Microsoft has done enough right to completely dominate the desktop marketspace has had a successful product in the server room as well.

    Years ago, there was nobody really competing with MS in the desktop/personal realm. Today, we have competition from Android and Apple. Whether we like the Apple products or not, they clearly do something well because most people love them, find them intuitive and once they switch over they often don't have much interest in switching back. There are some of us who aren't happy with the limitations of being on Apple products...but most aren't that picky and forsake these concerns for the other benefits they perceive.

    I really think MS would have had more success had they stuck to Windows 7 for the time being on the destkop and focused on Windows 8 for the time being on the tablets and the phones. These devices are far more suited to these types of devices. Work out the kinks and the bugs here, and get people used to it...and then consider a desktop implementation.

    Unfortunately, by having 8 on the desktop so fast, people are feeling forced into Windows 8 and nobody likes being forced into anything. And Microsoft didn't help this feeling at all with the fact that unlike all previous versions of Windows, we cannot elect any type of classic interface to help with the transition. Our ability to customize has been reduced.

    And for many of us desktop and laptop users, we use a desktop and laptop because we use classic style Windows desktop applications. I for one, spend very little time in the new interface when I use Windows 8. Full screen apps are not appealing at all to me. It's like having apps in a text user interface with a DOS window that I cannot resize. ---That's not Windows.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  6. #66


    Posts : 5,360
    7/8/ubuntu/Linux Deepin


    Thanks Cokie,

    Another cracker.


    Aren't there supposed to be vast numbers starting to abandon pc's and go to tablet/smarphones.

    MS would be losing customers in droves

    That is why MS must act - they have to do something big right now.

    Isn't that how the battle cry goes?

    Wait a minute - if that's true - then all those mythical defectors do not want or need desktop on a portable device - in fact they might have any need for it at all.

    They can't - because those devices they would allegedly be trading their pc's in for don't have that function.


    Are you now telling us the opposite ?

    The comedic value from the 3 jesters on this forum is immense.


    Quote Originally Posted by Coke Robot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SIW2 View Post
    If people want tablet functionality, will they be prepared to pay some sort of penalty for a desktop to be thrown in - again they might have no use for it.

    That is the question.
    They MIGHT have no use for Desktop software. MIGHT.

    How many people use iTunes daily on their PC? How many people connect their android smartphone to their PC daily? How many people connect their Windows Phone to their PC daily? How many people use networking sharing between PCs through HomeGroup.

    How many people have a phablet and a PC because simply, there hasn't been something that combines to the two together?
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  7. #67


    Posts : 5,707
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    Quote Originally Posted by BillWindows View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Coke Robot View Post
    I have to say, some of the reviews of the Surface Pro are interesting.

    It seems, to me at least, that since the tech media (apple thumpers) have never seen a tablet that isn't ARM based, and can run PC software, and runs Windows; they seem to be baffled. It sucks as a tablet, it sucks as laptop. But the Surface Pro ISN'T EITHER one of them. It is a tablet PC, there is SUCH A MAGNIFICENT DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A PHABLET AND TABLET PC!
    You can feel the hatred for Microsoft from the time they start typing, things like, This two pound piece of metal, this THING just hangs from the keyboard, I hate the type cover(while others love it)but its nice to type on, it's too heavy, it's too much future(what does that mean).

    I really hope both the Surface and Surface Pro succeed, I need something better than my iPads and Android tablets, and I've heard many Android and iPad users say the same thing. Trying to convince Windows users is another thing entirely.
    Oh yeah, with some "journalists" there is an apparent bias against Microsoft with things like this. It's pretty ridiculous. Either it's a bias or simply because they haven't ever come across something like this.

    If some Windows users were more convinced to upgrade, Windows xp wouldn't have a 37 percent market share, only Windows 7 and 8 with very few amounts of elder systems being used. Unfortunately, that's just the dynamic of some, users of the largest used system can stem from the elderly, the very young, the tech heads, the hippies, the incompetents, government officials, and people who just don't care for changes.

    As long as ipad users and android users switch to a Windows tablet PC, that's better than anything! No more phablets!
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  8. #68


    Posts : 5,707
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    Quote Originally Posted by SIW2 View Post
    Thanks Cokie,

    Another cracker.


    Aren't there supposed to be vast numbers starting to abandon pc's and go to tablet/smarphones.

    MS would be losing customers in droves

    That is why MS must act - they have to do something big right now.

    Isn't that how the battle cry goes?

    Wait a minute - if that's true - then all those mythical defectors do not want or need desktop on a portable device - in fact they might have any need for it at all.

    They can't - because those devices they would allegedly be trading their pc's in for don't have that function.


    Are you now telling us the opposite ?

    The comedic value from the 3 jesters on this forum is immense.


    Quote Originally Posted by Coke Robot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SIW2 View Post
    If people want tablet functionality, will they be prepared to pay some sort of penalty for a desktop to be thrown in - again they might have no use for it.

    That is the question.
    They MIGHT have no use for Desktop software. MIGHT.

    How many people use iTunes daily on their PC? How many people connect their android smartphone to their PC daily? How many people connect their Windows Phone to their PC daily? How many people use networking sharing between PCs through HomeGroup.

    How many people have a phablet and a PC because simply, there hasn't been something that combines to the two together?
    You obviously don't understand what a tablet PC is then. And you're just trying to wrap words around, some of which isn't mine.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  9. #69


    Posts : 5,707
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    Quote Originally Posted by pparks1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by BillWindows View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pparks1 View Post
    Nonsense, overall the Xbox360 is well liked and Windows 7 was very well received. And Office is the universal standard.

    We are the ones who are the most passionate and loyal to Microsoft products. And if we are squawking about issues, then there could be some things to take a look at.
    Oh you mean horrible issues like moving the power button, or getting rid of the Start Menu( which most people never used or got confused over) I could go on, but you get the point.
    BillWindows;

    Well, you don't consider the changes to be horrible and overall you seem to welcome them. Unfortunately, I don't think a lot of people see the appeal in the changes. I'm sorry that this means that your beloved product isn't being universally praised by the masses.

    A subtle change like the movement of the power button is not the issue. The issue with the power button moving is more an issue of things NOT being intuitive. Intuitive means people figure it out on their own, it doesn't mean they have to have somebody sit down and teach them where everything is. Obviously the fear and concern would be that they will run into things over and over and over again which they will have a hard time finding.

    And I don't think that people got that confused over the Start Button. As far as NOT using the Start Button, I cannot help but believe that all of the squawking over the removal of the Start Button seems to indicate to me that far more people were actually using it than you believe. Otherwise the removal of it would be a non-issue. But clearly this is NOT the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by BillWindows View Post
    I watch the news on TV, everything else I get off the Net, I don't buy newspapers or magazines. By Media I mean Tech Media on the net. If you virtually live on the net like I do you'll understand, Microsoft can't do anything right.
    Well, obviously from a historical perspective Microsoft has done enough right to completely dominate the desktop marketspace has had a successful product in the server room as well.

    Years ago, there was nobody really competing with MS in the desktop/personal realm. Today, we have competition from Android and Apple. Whether we like the Apple products or not, they clearly do something well because most people love them, find them intuitive and once they switch over they often don't have much interest in switching back. There are some of us who aren't happy with the limitations of being on Apple products...but most aren't that picky and forsake these concerns for the other benefits they perceive.

    I really think MS would have had more success had they stuck to Windows 7 for the time being on the destkop and focused on Windows 8 for the time being on the tablets and the phones. These devices are far more suited to these types of devices. Work out the kinks and the bugs here, and get people used to it...and then consider a desktop implementation.

    Unfortunately, by having 8 on the desktop so fast, people are feeling forced into Windows 8 and nobody likes being forced into anything. And Microsoft didn't help this feeling at all with the fact that unlike all previous versions of Windows, we cannot elect any type of classic interface to help with the transition. Our ability to customize has been reduced.

    And for many of us desktop and laptop users, we use a desktop and laptop because we use classic style Windows desktop applications. I for one, spend very little time in the new interface when I use Windows 8. Full screen apps are not appealing at all to me. It's like having apps in a text user interface with a DOS window that I cannot resize. ---That's not Windows.
    If you read anything from a major tech review site, such as the Verge, you'll find some bias against them. Also, to me, it seems the older the person that has worked in IT and seen Windows 3-95 or earlier to MS-DOS and such, seem to have more of a bias against Microsoft.

    So I can't help but to say, if you have little use for the metro apps, and work in the Desktop, there is literally very little difference from Windows 7 to 8 in terms of the UI. The Start Screen is just big and visual. So what?

    Also, the FACTS ARE THERE that start menu usage has been dropping. If a start menu continued on in Windows 8, it would get to the point where people would be criticizing Microsoft for not reacting to that earlier when they knew it wasn't being used enough. This isn't what is being understood by anyone other than people that don't care about technology. By Windows 9, Microsoft would have a phablet OS like EVERYONE else that does nothing more than be more modern looking, and a desktop OS that might be finally undercut by that phablet OS. Look at apple, the ipad and ios devices account for more than half the entire company to the point where they had to say they're on a war against the PC in general as the mac is being used less and sold less. That's what would happen, OS fragmentation and hardware fragmentation, device compromise almost. It's either pay 500 dollars for an ARM tablet and pay 450 for a PC to use for Office and iTunes. It's a crappy deal to pay almost 1,000 dollars for two devices to lug around with you, one you enjoy using with touch and the other is just there for tasks that you just can't do on the phablet as the OS can't do that, as it's limited by the smartphone counterpart. This is why Microsoft chose the route the did, combine the two devices and platform styles into one package that can work in different ways in the new UI style, and work with a mouse and work with touch. Windows is still one product and not fragmented and not in a position to be undercut.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  10. #70


    Quote Originally Posted by Coke Robot View Post
    If you read anything from a major tech review site, such as the Verge, you'll find some bias against them.
    But is the bias truly a bias or just a genuine dissatisfaction overall? I'm not biased against Microsoft, but I certainly don't rave about Windows 8.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coke Robot View Post
    Also, to me, it seems the older the person that has worked in IT and seen Windows 3-95 or earlier to MS-DOS and such, seem to have more of a bias against Microsoft.
    Perhaps that is because we have seen and experienced more OS's and can better understand the efforts and struggles involved in getting to where we are. As IT folks too, we often have more experience working heavily with competing products and understand better what competitors are able to bring us. So, that may lead us to be more critical of the way that Microsoft does one particular task over another.

    For me personally, my biggest gripe is always with Microsoft because it's the system that I am somewhat forced to be on on my desktops (at work and and home). Since it's the one that I use the most, it's the one I am most likely to find issues with. Compared to work situations where when a linux box fits a situation better than Windows, then I deploy a Linux box. With desktops I don't find that I personally have that much choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coke Robot View Post
    So I can't help but to say, if you have little use for the metro apps, and work in the Desktop, there is literally very little difference from Windows 7 to 8 in terms of the UI. The Start Screen is just big and visual. So what?
    1. Cost of upgrading. If 8 isn't that appealing, why spend the money and upgrade from 7?
    2. Principal. Why upgrade to 8 and then spend $$'s and time on 3rd parties and such to make Windows 8 look and run like Windows 7? If nothing else, it just clutters up the box.



    Quote Originally Posted by Coke Robot View Post
    Also, the FACTS ARE THERE that start menu usage has been dropping. If a start menu continued on in Windows 8, it would get to the point where people would be criticizing Microsoft for not reacting to that earlier when they knew it wasn't being used enough.
    So leave the start as an option for those of us who were not declining in our use of the start menu. I think it worked great, fit me nicely for many years. I'm still using it on my Windows 7 machines now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coke Robot View Post
    Look at apple, the ipad and ios devices account for more than half the entire company to the point where they had to say they're on a war against the PC in general as the mac is being used less and sold less. That's what would happen, OS fragmentation and hardware fragmentation, device compromise almost. It's either pay 500 dollars for an ARM tablet and pay 450 for a PC to use for Office and iTunes. It's a crappy deal to pay almost 1,000 dollars for two devices to lug around with you, one you enjoy using with touch and the other is just there for tasks that you just can't do on the phablet as the OS can't do that, as it's limited by the smartphone counterpart. This is why Microsoft chose the route the did, combine the two devices and platform styles into one package that can work in different ways in the new UI style, and work with a mouse and work with touch. Windows is still one product and not fragmented and not in a position to be undercut.
    And only time will tell if this move was successful. I honestly don't think the majority of tablet type users need the power of a full fledged PC, and I'm not sure that they will see the advantages of it over the cost increase. As a desktop and laptop user, I'm not sure that I would be willing to sacrifice screen space and upgradeability of a destkop or laptop to get the form factor of a tablet.

    I'm perfectly content having 2 devices. Since I have a wife and 2 kids, the more devices the better. That way we can all use our devices without having to share. I think there are a lot of people out there like me.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

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