Removing Start for Windows 8 was the right thing to do

Agreed. The start menu doesn't work well with a touchscreen. 99.99% of us desktop and laptop users of Windows (which account for 99.99% of the installed Windows user base), don't have touchscreens...and most likely won't for the next few years.

The theory is that eventually when cars are flying they won't need tires, but you don't see cars on the lot today which don't come with tires in preparation for this eventuality.

As I've always said, make this blasted interface optional and lots of people become far happier.
 

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I loathe the touch-screen concept with a passion.

I will never buy a desktop with a touch-screen.

Nor a laptop.

Touch DOES NOT BELONG on these devices.

At ALL.

It certainly has NO place on my machines.

Fine on a phone or tablet, but unacceptable on REAL machines.

Just as well W8 works just fine with a mouse, or I'd be giving it
a miss, no matter how 'good' it is.
 

My Computer

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    Windows 8 Enterprise 64-bit (7 Ult, Vista & XP in V-Box)
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    Acer Aspire Ethos AS8951G 'Super-Laptop'.
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    Intel Sandy-Bridge i7-2670QM quad-core
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    Acer
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    I/R cordless.
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    Borderline pathetic.
Just as well W8 works just fine with a mouse, or I'd be giving it
a miss, no matter how 'good' it is.

Don't you use a start menu replacement, boot to desktop, and quick launch? No disrespect here, but essentially you are saying Windows 8 works fine if it has the Windows 7 interface bolted on top of it.

MS designed Windows 8 to be used via the start screen and that is the way the majority of consumers will use it. Does your recommendation that Windows 8 is fine extend to users actually using the Windows 8 user interface?
 

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So basically the main argument in the article is "Start button doesn't make sense with touch so it must be removed". Sure, but all of us with untouchable screens - are we chopped liver?

The truth is Windows 8 compromises the Desktop experience to support touch. Some people accept that compromise and some don't.
 

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I'll have to get back to you on that one, Snoop.

Although, as I said somewhere else, I find myself using
both the Classic Start AND the new Start screen.

This was originally done so I could still find things while
learning my way around W8.

But the two actually do complement each-other, so I
reckon I have the best of BOTH worlds.

I can bounce between the two with ease, but can avoid
the Start screen altogether if/when desired. I do NOT
have the Start screen OR the Charms bar disabled, and
do use them both.

Sure, that setup won't suit everyone.

But it IS a good way to learn W8 without getting lost,
and I like the added versatility.

I DO miss the Start button, but now when I'm on my
W7 machine, I find myself missing the Start screen
and the 'guts' menu (bottom-left right-click).

And it all works just FINE with a mouse...:)
 

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    PSU
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    Air-cooled
    Mouse
    I/R cordless.
    Internet Speed
    Borderline pathetic.
So basically the main argument in the article is "Start button doesn't make sense with touch so it must be removed". Sure, but all of us with untouchable screens - are we chopped liver?

The truth is Windows 8 compromises the Desktop experience to support touch. Some people accept that compromise and some don't.

I'd be in the 'don't' camp, Ivo.

That's why I've customised it to suit my preferences, because I do like the OS itself.


BTW, love what you've done with Classic Shell. Thanks....well done...:thumb::D
 

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    Acer Aspire Ethos AS8951G 'Super-Laptop'.
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    Intel Sandy-Bridge i7-2670QM quad-core
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    Acer
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    8GB DDR3
    Graphics Card(s)
    Intel 3000HD / Ge-Force GT555M 2 gigs
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    Realtek/5.1 Dolby built-in including speakers.
    Monitor(s) Displays
    18.4" full-HD
    Screen Resolution
    1920x1024
    Hard Drives
    2x750GB Toshiba internal, 1x500GB Seagate external, 1x2TB Seagate external, 1x640GB Toshiba pocket-drive, 1x640GB Samsung pocket drive.
    PSU
    Stock
    Case
    Laptop
    Cooling
    Air-cooled
    Mouse
    I/R cordless.
    Internet Speed
    Borderline pathetic.
Just as well W8 works just fine with a mouse, or I'd be giving it
a miss, no matter how 'good' it is.

Don't you use a start menu replacement, boot to desktop, and quick launch? No disrespect here, but essentially you are saying Windows 8 works fine if it has the Windows 7 interface bolted on top of it.

But why spend the money to upgrade from Windows 8, then make Windows 8 run like Windows 7. Unless you are deriving great value from some of the other Windows 8 features, it might make sense to just stay put with Windows 7. It's going to be up to the end user to determine if all of the other changes bring enough added value.
 

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Just as well W8 works just fine with a mouse, or I'd be giving it
a miss, no matter how 'good' it is.

Don't you use a start menu replacement, boot to desktop, and quick launch? No disrespect here, but essentially you are saying Windows 8 works fine if it has the Windows 7 interface bolted on top of it.

MS designed Windows 8 to be used via the start screen and that is the way the majority of consumers will use it. Does your recommendation that Windows 8 is fine extend to users actually using the Windows 8 user interface?

Hi there

If you really BELIEVE what you've actually posted -- please re-read your original post again --you say Most CONSUMERS.

This might be true but then please tell me why there is an "Enterprise" version of W8. If you are in a workplace most people really need the classical desktop -- not this type "SKOOL COOL TOOLS" interface.

At install time there really ought to be options for the GUI --Metro , Classical Desktop, or both.

Cheers
jimbo
 

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Seriously right now, it's faster to use the Start Screen than the menu.
 

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Right you are Cokie :thumbsup:
 

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    500 GB HDD
Here are my thoughts:

Why upgrade to Windows 8 to make it run like Windows 7? Easy. Windows 8 runs faster, uses less resources, and is more secure.

While I do agree Microsoft has made a few missteps with Windows 8 (removing the Start button, auto pinning installs to Metro) both are easy to deal with. I bought Start8 to get the Start button back, and for those that argue you shouldn't have to buy it I ask, "Do you spend $5 on a coffee from Starbucks, or a value meal from McDonald's? If so, you can poney up the $5 for a piece of software you'll use daily vs a drink or meal that you'll be done with in 30 min." As for the auto pinning of Metro, I just go in and unpin them. Takes 5 sec.

Touch has no business being on desktop.
Then don't use touch, and don't use Metro. Simple. While I partially agree touch in its current state really doesn't work on desktop, primarily because I don't want to get fingerprints all over my monitor, a really interesting 3rd party solution is coming out next year. And, if it does well, perhaps other developers will start including them in laptops or on keyboards. That magical device? Leap Motion.
 

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    Logitech K800
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I think folks are missing the point.

So much talk of the individual superficial points.

The real problem is the removal of choice.

It goes much deeper than many people realise.

Even those who quite like the little squares, etc, I would hope will tell MS this is not the way to do it.

We are the customers- we want it to be "our pc".

I am disappointed that so few understand what is going on.

I expected more from computer forum regulars.
 

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    7/8/ubuntu/Linux Deepin
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We are the customers- we want it to be "our pc".

But that's why Microsoft still has the Desktop, and why they allow third-party start menus. They are showing us their path, but they aren't stopping us (yet) from modifying our experience.

And if they didn't push us to the next thing nothing would ever change, because as we get older we get comfortable and set in our ways. If they didn't change we'd still be using DOS or Windows 3.1, and I remind you both caused ripples as well. I suspect as new hardware comes out to take advantage of Windows 8, and that hardware becomes the norm, people will start to appreciate the direction Microsoft is going.
 

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    Corsair Vengeance 16GB
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    SanDisk Extreme SSD 240GB (OS)
    Western Digital 1TB (Data)
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    Corsair HX Professional Series 750-Watt
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    Corsair Carbide Series 400R Mid Tower
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    Corsair Hydro Series H80 High Performance Liquid CPU Cooler
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    Logitech K800
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    Logitech T400
Removing start for 8 was the right thing to do.

I just returned from Best Buy a few minutes ago, and overheard, and watched a couple of people looking at 8 demo models. They asked the salesperson if they could buy one with 8 now, ... the salesperson said they would have to wait for Oct 26. The interested people said, ok, we will return later when we can buy one with 8 on it. Probably just an anomaly...

While I do agree Microsoft has made a few missteps with Windows 8 (removing the Start button, auto
pinning installs to Metro)

IMO, MS has made no misstep here. For many, not for all, especially for new users and young people who catch on very quickly and don't have a chip on their shoulder, the start menu will not be missed, or even noticed, that it is gone. I am not speaking about people, that have been using Windows since DOS, but rather, people who have never used a computer before. They may have never even seen a start menu. But what about the base of users you say...regular customers for years...a change could be seen as a misstep or a mistake, but that is what MS has for sale today. My neighbor likes to upgrade his car every 2 or 3 years to stay new. Everyone does not need to buy a new car every few years to stay new, nor can they afford to do so. It can be a fine plan to continue using XP, Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Mint, Vista, Apple, Windows 7 or anything else that works for you. 8 is not a must have upgrade for some. (8) It is, however, an improvement on 7 if that is what you believe. There are technical reasons why the new UI is better or worse, for use, based on opinion. Removal of the start menu is what MS chose to do based on their perception and agreement that the product has been reimagined and conceived to be new and better.

Touch has no business being on desktop. Then don't use touch, and don't use Metro. Simple. While I
partially agree touch in its current state really doesn't work on desktop, primarily because I don't want to get fingerprints all over my monitor, a really interesting 3rd party solution is coming out next year. And, if it does well, perhaps other developers will start including them in laptops or on keyboards. That magical device? Leap Motion.

IMO, a touch pad is a nice thing to have on devices or keyboards and it is useful, sometimes, on the desktop. I find a touchpad useful when no mouse is available or when getting tired of clicking. Touch monitors (on the desktop) are not so useful, IMO, since any movement that requires me to lift my arm is unacceptable while working on the desktop. The "Leap Motion" thingy is kinda, a little like, a gaming device. The demo is interesting but requires arm work (lifting) which is unacceptable at my work station.

The real problem is the removal of choice.

The "choice" ... is a request for legacy preference. Back to the auto analogies, Why not offer Wing Tipped fins, or headlight auto retract covers...a convertible...you like blue, I like red, ... leather seats or vinyl, v4, v6, or v8...diesel or gas, when will enough be enough. How many options will be satisfactory? With all the problems that seem to happen when installing and all the complaints about lack of customization features, ... This version of Windows cannot be for everyone everywhere. Everyone will never be satisfied completely.
 

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It's really simple. A start menu can be alpha/numeric or tiles. Some persons prefer tiles, others alpha/numeric.

And while it is true that the original W7 start orb and menu can be added to the desk top via a hack; the question is, when it's so simple to add the orb start menu, what did MS hope to gain by omitting it?

It was no skin off their nose to leave it, so why force the persons who prefer a traditional menu to either use a smartfone/tablet menu or use a hack? Were they deliberately trying to disenchant a significant section of their customers?

In all desktop folders under 'View', they offer a choice of list, icons, tiles, etc. So why not offer a 'list' option for a start menu? Why this lack of choice on desktop?
 

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OK, let's run with the car analogy.
20 years from now the polar caps melt and 50% of the land is covered with water (great idea for a movie, BTW). There is a great need for amphibious vehicles. It is a growing market, as opposed of land-only cars, which most people already have. So the car companies focus primarily on that. And to save costs they build all the vehicles on the same platform. We'll end up with land cars that have rudders, you have to climb up the stairs to get aboard, and you can't go faster than 35 knots (yes, the speedometer is in knots). Is it the right choice for the company? Most likely - they save money by reusing the same technology. Will the consumers be happy? Most likely not. They turn to other alternative manufacturers (Ubunda, Hunix, etc)
 

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  • OS
    Windows 7
the question is, when it's so simple to add the orb start menu, what did MS hope to gain by omitting it?

Actually, IMO, I think MS considers the new UI to be better. So there is nothing to gain by including it. Opinions vary and many have clearly expressed a major disapproval of the MS solution. Will there be retaliation against MS because of the start menu? Maybe. Or lack of option to eliminate the metro? Maybe. MS is not obligated to provide end user solutions to every facet of preference.
Crafty developers will see an opportunity.

Will the consumers be happy? Most likely not. They turn to other alternative manufacturers (Ubunda, Hunix, etc)

There is money to be made here with the lack of customization features and orby start menu. MS usually makes it quite easy to profit from their decisions or lack thereof.
 

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    logitech washable K310
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    ie / maxthon
    Other Info
    Totally silent. No fans at all.
A coworker of mine, jumped in head first at work, used his MSDN account and upgraded his Windows 7 Enterprise machine to Windows 8 Enterprise. He's been running it like this since last week.

He said, and I quote ("replacing a few expletives with freak)
"I will say. The search functionality is freaking AMAZING.
Type a phrase, then click the app you want to search with
Awe. Some.

Protip: Windows+C = Charms Bar
Saves freakassing around with corners.

At the end of the day though
That tiled interface is freaking horrible for desktops.
Windows 8 is going to tank
For anything but tablets.
Eventually people will realize that tablets are garbage for "real" computing though"
 

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    15/2 cable modem
    Other Info
    Windows and Linux enthusiast. Logitech G35 Headset.
So there is nothing to gain by including it.
But they do have something to lose by not including it ... the loss of potential sales from existing W7 customers who would otherwise upgrade, or new customers, who won't buy it unless there's a start menu inlcuded. Many people refused to upgrade from Vista to W7 because there was no email client included in W7.

On the other hand it costs nothing to include it, and everything to gain. And not only in increased sales, but also it fosters goodwill if nothing else. And with the market economy the way it is, who can't use some extra goodwill?

So the question becomes: What could they possibly hope to gain by omitting something that costs you nothing to include, and which could potentially cost you sales and foster badwill? It just don't compute, if you'll pardon the pun!
 
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    12GB & 8GB
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    In built in graphics card & onboard
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