Windows 8 and 8.1 Forums


Removing Start for Windows 8 was the right thing to do

  1. #61


    India
    Posts : 1,184
    Windows 8.1, Windows 7, Linux Mint 14


    Quote Originally Posted by Mustang View Post
    So you're saying it's quicker to find a sub-menu item that is not included in your shortcuts or items pinned to task bar ... and it's impossible to include them all ... by leaving the desktop to find it in Metro tiles rather than stay on the desktop and find it in the alpha-numeric start menu?
    With Windows 8's powerful search, you can easily get whatever you want in seconds.

    Let me make it clear:
    Start screen isn't "All programs" of Windows 7 start menu. I'm sure you know what it is to pin apps in the old start menu. I'm sure you are aware that you weren't pinning 47 programs in the Win 7 start menu.
    The start screen is designed for pinning apps, folders etc. which you use the most. Not all the programs you have installed. I would never pin more than 40 tiles in the Start screen. At present I have only 15 of my most used apps and folder locations pinned.

    All apps in Windows 8 is equivalent to all programs of the old start menu.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mustang
    Gimme a break! Who wants to look thro whatever number of full screens of tiles rather than a menu that occupies 8% of your desktop?
    That's a very personal opinion of yours.


    In short, you're saying it's equally or more efficient to leave the desktop completely and return periodically
    Yes. Not only me, many others.

    than to be able to do everything from the desktop in one integrated smooth flow?
    I think that's the reason it was removed. If the start menu was there most traditional users would at times forget that there was also a thing called Start screen in Windows 8.

    So why not have both?
    Microsoft feels that start screen is as good as (or even better than) the start menu. Therefore, no point in having them both.


    • Why was it necessary for MS to remove it?
    • What harm was it doing?
    • What adavantage was gained by removing it? Except to force the use of Metro. Please explain!
    • W8 is a single platform designed for all devices - desktop, smartfone, tablet, etc. So why not include this feature for the desktop mode?
    1. It was necessary, in my opinion, to remove it because it helps the user to get used to the new Start Screen.
    2. It wasn't really doing any harm, but Microsoft thought it was better not having them both.
    3. You have already mentioned the advantage gained. If you don't force Metro, many would never use it, and therefore would never ever realise it's potential.

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  2. #62


    Australia
    Posts : 716
    Windows 7 Ult Reatil & Win 8 Pro OEM


    Quote Originally Posted by Arpan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mustang View Post
    • Why was it necessary for MS to remove it?
    • What harm was it doing?
    • What adavantage was gained by removing it? Except to force the use of Metro. Please explain!
    • W8 is a single platform designed for all devices - desktop, smartfone, tablet, etc. So why not include this feature for the desktop mode?
    1. It was necessary, in my opinion, to remove it because it helps the user to get used to the new Start Screen.
    2. It wasn't really doing any harm, but Microsoft thought it was better not having them both.
    3. You have already mentioned the advantage gained. If you don't force Metro, many would never use it, and therefore would never ever realise it's potential.
    You've missed your vocation Arpan. You should be selling fridges to Eskimos; or sand to Arabs. Nice snow job!

    Lets get the words right. It doesn't help the user get used to Metro, it forces the user to use Metro! So consumer preference has nothing to do with it as far as MS is concerned ... it's our way or the highway!

    You're damn right it wouldn't be used by the vast majority if the option for legacy start menu was included in W8 out of the box. As to realizing it's potential ... that's your opinion ... it's only potential is for touch devices. With desktop it's a liability.

    You asked Colonel Travis to provide facts. As you said of him, you've simply stated personal opinions. How about you providing documented, valid test statistics, where an experienced operator, equally computer literate with both W7 & W8, has undertaken the same taks with mutiple, simulataneous, windows, apps and functions ... and been able to do it simpler and quicker on W8 ... in it's native state. Links please.

    I can open anything I want with a mouse, without having to type anything in a search engine, or leave the desktop. And as far as I'm concerned that's the ultimate efficiency. We'll have to agree to disagree, won't we?
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  3. #63


    India
    Posts : 1,184
    Windows 8.1, Windows 7, Linux Mint 14


    Quote Originally Posted by Mustang View Post
    You asked Colonel Travis to provide facts. As you said of him, you've simply stated personal opinions. How about you providing documented, valid test statistics, where an experienced operator, equally computer literate with both W7 & W8, has undertaken the same taks with mutiple, simulataneous, windows, apps and functions ... and been able to do it simpler and quicker on W8 ... in it's native state. Links please.
    I don't know what you are asking.

    Let's say Windows 7 be x
    If metro be m,
    then, Windows 8=x+m Right?

    Windows 7 has desktop, Windows 8 also has desktop. Therefore, you can do everything in 8, that you could do with 7 almost exactly the same way. It is more efficient in the way that W8 uses less resources, hence faster. I'm not sure if you have read (there is a forum thread as well), I would have provided you the link if I were on my PC, forensic tests have proved Windows 8 to be more secure than previous versions of Windows.

    I can open anything I want with a mouse, without having to type anything in a search engine, or leave the desktop. And as far as I'm concerned that's the ultimate efficiency. We'll have to agree to disagree, won't we?
    It's your personal opinion. I and many others have no problem pressing a few keys.
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  4. #64


    Australia
    Posts : 716
    Windows 7 Ult Reatil & Win 8 Pro OEM


    Quote Originally Posted by Arpan View Post
    I don't know what you are asking.
    I think you know exactly what I'm asking and are avoiding the issue.

    Show me links to validated tests where the same operator, who is equally proficient with Metro & Orb/Start Menu, has performed the same tasks of simultaneous multi apps/functions in W8 ... first using only Metro, and secondly only Orb/Start Menu.

    We're not comparing systems or security. This thread is about dropping the Orb/Start Menu. And I'm talking about comparing Metro/Orb Start Menu, when either is used in W8. So please stop trying to cloud the issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arpan View Post
    I and many others have no problem pressing a few keys.
    I didn't ask if you had problems with it or not; but which way is more efficient in objective testing. And I asked you to back up your previous statement that Metro was a better way, with links to tests done using Metro versus Orb/Start Menu. You chose to ignore this by stating preferences, not facts.

    Until you come up with such facts, I consider it pointless to continue the discussion. My last word is we'll have to agree to disagree.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  5. #65


    India
    Posts : 1,184
    Windows 8.1, Windows 7, Linux Mint 14


    Ok, Mustang. We will stop our discussion here. Because I don't have any article in my knowledge where any tech writer has done those tests. Anybody knows, please post here . I myself can do those tests but I don't have time right now to organise everything with screenshots and all that. Can I ask some other members like Coke Robot or mdmd to post them? Will be thankful to them. mdmd has previously posted things like this at places but I don't remember where exactly they are. I'm on my android, don't think will be accessing internet though pc in the next few days.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  6. #66


    Australia
    Posts : 716
    Windows 7 Ult Reatil & Win 8 Pro OEM


    Quote Originally Posted by Arpan View Post
    Ok, Mustang. We will stop our discussion here. Because I don't have any article in my knowledge where any tech writer has done those tests. Anybody knows, please post here . I myself can do those tests but I don't have time right now to organise everything with screenshots and all that. Can I ask some other members like Coke Robot or mdmd to post them? Will be thankful to them. mdmd has previously posted things like this at places but I don't remember where exactly they are. I'm on my android, don't think will be accessing internet though pc in the next few days.
    No problemo. And appreciate your honesty. No hard feelings here. And at least we agree on something ... I've got an Android too. And contrary to a lot of opinions I think it's great.

    Believe it or not I am actually open minded on the subject. And if it works for others that's fine. I have no problem with that. I just believe it should be a two way street. MS should not have a problem with our preference. And true it is their system to do with as they want. It's still a democracy.

    However, it's more about the way MS has gone about it than anything else. It smacks too much of Gestapo/KGB approach: "If you do not agree that the Politburo knows what's best for you; you will be sent to state indoctrination facility for compulsory re-education ... for your own good!"
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  7. #67


    I see this thread turned into a "hot potato", just as some others do, especially when it comes to the removal of the Start Orb and Menu versus the Start Screen and the Modern touch UI. No doubt this is the crux issue with 8 versus previous MS OSs. A big giant leap no doubt.

    Arpan, Mustang is asking for links to a scientifically performed study of work station productivity tests, of which I'll assume none exists at this point, for 8 is fairly new and has not been officially released. Is it fair to say you know that as well, Mustang? (And others) Perhaps MS has performed studies while creating 8, or at least considered what way is best to navigate. I think this is what it boils down to -> Navigation within an OS.

    If so, most posts of this thread is opinions and not based on pure scientific factual results. As humans, we tend to cross over to our emotional state to hammer home our opinion, which tends to cause argument rather than debate. Debating is what forums are based on.

    What I truly see on both sides of the controversy is our human compassion to obtain what is best for all. That's what is inspiring to me. Some say this is not the correct direction to go while others say it is. I try my utmost not to judge either side. When one exercises this, one can achieve the "big picture" with all of this. I think I have truly reached this point with 8 via this forum and members.

    I truly hear and understand what the Pros (and others) concerns are. This change MS has undertaken is a big risk -> Not the way to go! It'll hinder productivity! In time this may prove to be true.

    Unfortunately (or fortunately; depending on view), as most things in life, it is out of our our power as to what actions others take or what others decide what is best. It's obvious that MS decided that the Modern UI navigation with Start Screen was the best for whatever reasons.

    As I've stated numerous times before -> I think when it comes to a market viewpoint MS has no choice but to go this route, for this is what the market is demanding. They are mimicking competition because the competition is winning more markets and making more profit. I personally feel they will ultimately do a better job at it.

    If and when we bought a touch device, we voted for touch. I own one -> my smart phone. I plan on going with the flow -> touch navigation. I plan on getting a touch screen for my PC. Call it smart or foolish. Call it what you will. I think it's a better way of navigation. I've tested this for myself sitting at my PC on my desk. I have no problem extending my arm, for I work construction and do that (and more) all day long. I'm aware it may be different for those that sit at a PC work station all day long. I will experiment and experience it for myself.

    Bottom line -> I cannot change the weather, the world as it is, others' actions or decisions -> All I have is responsibility for my own. Ultimately I am the one that makes me happy or productive, no one else.

    I see that Brink wisely added a link in his OP to a tutorial on how to add a Start Menu if one desires one. I know one may think they shouldn't have to, but that's the way it is. At least for now.
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  8. #68


    India
    Posts : 1,184
    Windows 8.1, Windows 7, Linux Mint 14


    Quote Originally Posted by Mustang View Post
    No problemo. And appreciate your honesty. No hard feelings here. And at least we agree on something ... I've got an Android too. And contrary to a lot of opinions I think it's great.
    Thank you, Mustang. I appreciate your honesty too. Yes, when we discuss something, we should try to logically place our viewpoints rather than emotional driven statements. There shouldn't be any personal emotions and hard feelings. I'm glad you own an Android rather than a iOS device (I think I was born to hate Apple, I know I have not many valid reasons for that but it's just that I love to hate Apple ).

    It was good conversing with you Mustang
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  9. #69


    Australia
    Posts : 716
    Windows 7 Ult Reatil & Win 8 Pro OEM


    Quote Originally Posted by Arpan View Post
    It was good conversing with you Mustang
    Thank you. And same back to you. And BTW, I hate iPhone too! I had a bad experience with various issues with one that had static, and they didn't want to know about it. Even after admitting they could hear it, not just in the particular one I returned, but in several others of the same model.

    Cheers M
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  10. #70


    Australia
    Posts : 716
    Windows 7 Ult Reatil & Win 8 Pro OEM


    Quote Originally Posted by HippsieGypsie View Post
    I see that Brink wisely added a link in his OP to a tutorial on how to add a Start Menu if one desires one. I know one may think they shouldn't have to, but that's the way it is. At least for now.
    As mentioned in another post I'm using Ex7ForW8 to restore W7 Orb/StartMenu in W8 Enterprise. And I have to say W8 is very clean and crisp.

    The beauty of this hack is it leaves Explorer8/Metro intact, and either Explorer7/Orb Start Menu or Explorer8/Metro, can be accessed from the active GUI.

    On reboot it will go to the last mode running when shutdown occurred. So you need never see Metro, but it's there if you want it, with one click of your mouse.

    Also it imports files form W7 installation disk, so you get the exact same set up of Orb/Start Menu, with all functions. The only possible glitch may be when updates are loaded. Time will tell.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

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