Windows 8 and 8.1 Forums


Removing Start for Windows 8 was the right thing to do

  1. #21


    Ohio
    Posts : 473
    Windows 8 Pro


    As the author states: "It's now time, unless you plan to stop using Windows for the rest of your life, to get over it: the Start button is gone" I still believe that as we get used to it, the vast majority will like the Windows 8 just the way it is. Yes--right now I'm sure that there are many who will take issue with what I just said; and I have no problem with that. But I say just give it time.

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  2. #22


    OK, so Microsoft, in their infinite wisdom, want to do away with the Start button. How, then, are we users supposed to do all the things we used to use the Start button for? Where else may we find a simple list of installed programs? Are we supposed to have a coloured tile for each and every program we install? And since some programs seem to spawn a multitude of tiles when they are installed, do we have to tidy things up each time we install something?

    Coming from Windows XP, I can see that using tiles instead of a desktop with Start button will take a lot of getting used to. Fine, I can use the Classic Shell program to restore a Start button (not quite the same, but close), I would rather Microsoft gave me the choice. Instead, Microsoft is behaving in a rather Applistic manner: "you don't want that. You should just want what we tell you to want."

    PS Am I showing my age and lack of uptodatefullness by referring to 'programs' instead of 'apps'?
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  3. #23


    Posts : 1,320
    Server 2012 / 8.0


    https://www.eightforums.com/general-d...tart-menu.html

    All apps is where it's at.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dogmatix View Post
    Where else may we find a simple list of installed programs?
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  4. #24


    Posts : 1,320
    Server 2012 / 8.0


    Quote Originally Posted by pparks1 View Post
    That tiled interface is freaking horrible for desktops. Windows 8 is going to tank
    You forgot to say IMO. Ok. I will say it. IMO the tiles interface is very effective, quick and useful for desktops. Easier, IMO, to use, than a start menu. Just IMO. Not true for someone else. It is a preference. Considering the use of a start menu for 17 years, I welcome the change. Opinions vary. If 8 tanks, it will be added to my collection of Operating Systems. It is not a must have upgrade. Looking forward to the next release of Windows.

    Quote Originally Posted by pparks1 View Post
    Eventually people will realize that tablets are garbage for "real" computing though
    Since my desktop is not mobile, I have no experience with mobile technology. I use 8 in the same manner as all previous versions. A traditional desktop experience with a new launcher and apps that are interesting and useful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mustang View Post
    But they do have something to lose by not including it ... the loss of potential sales from existing W7
    customers who would otherwise upgrade, or new customers, who won't buy it unless there's a start menu included. Many people refused to upgrade from Vista to W7 because there was no email client included in W7.

    On the other hand it costs nothing to include it, and everything to gain. And not only in increased sales, but also it fosters goodwill if nothing else. And with the market economy the way it is, who can't use some extra goodwill?
    Unfortunately, touch is a priority (not exclusive) to the OS model and would be ineffective with an orby menu. Whether one likes touch or not, that is the MS plan for now. I, like many others, prefer a mouse and keyboard. So, 8 is a phone OS and desktop hybrid. Take it or leave it, or leave it, or forget it. If they lose customers, then that will be a consequence of their decision. As far as goodwill is concerned, MS, IMO, believes an orby menu to be a legacy option and is not compatible with touch. So 8 is kind of like a schizophrenic OS. MS has lost money before, and will lose customers and money again...but will probably still be around for a while.
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  5. #25


    mdmd,

    Remember, I was quoting what my coworker said about 8 on his computer at work. They weren't my statements.

    I personally think that the tile interface of start is horrible, as I have to leave behind everything on my destkop and run the menu for picking an application on my entire screen. I don't want to run any of this BS metro apps, because they either consume my whole screen, 320px of my screen, or the rest of my screen. I don't want that. I'm on a 24" monitor, I want to be able to resize things as I see fit.

    I'm glad you like the change to the new start setup. I'm glad it works for you. I'm not happy that I have no choice in the matter. Having an option for the start menu has always been in Windows. Usually the new view and the classic view. People could choose which they liked. But now we don't have an option and that's what rubs many of us the wrong way.

    Sure, it's slick looking, cutesy even. But many of us don't find it appealing to use, efficient or effective.

    Like you say, we all have our opinions and we are entitled to them. I'm not saying anybody is wrong for liking it, but it sure would be nice to have had some choice for those who don't. The lack of choice makes me feel like I am using an Apple product.
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  6. #26


    Posts : 534
    Windows 7, Windows 8 RP


    Quote Originally Posted by Dogmatix View Post
    And since some programs seem to spawn a multitude of tiles when they are installed, do we have to tidy things up each time we install something?
    The fact that, depending on the software, many icons are dropped in the Start Screen is a by product of installers designed for Windows 7, it's not because of W8 or Metro. When software and their installers are updated to "Works with Windows 8" or "Windows 8 Compatible" I'm sure there will be options for the icons and Start Screen.
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  7. #27


    Posts : 1,320
    Server 2012 / 8.0


    Quote Originally Posted by pparks1 View Post
    Sure, it's slick looking, cutesy even. But many of us don't find it appealing to use, efficient or effective. Like you say, we all have our opinions and we are entitled to them. I'm not saying anybody is wrong for liking it, but it sure would be nice to have had some choice for those who don't. The lack of choice makes me feel like I am using an Apple product.
    True, about the lack of options, but with each OS there seems to be always something given and something taken away. Simply stated, for me, oh well, enough with the start menu. Been using it for 17 years and am quite annoyed by it. Do not like nesting or hierarchies. I prefer the new flat approach. I was getting so annoyed by start menus, that I was seeking shell replacements and even going to Linux distros. Frequently used dock launchers. Never liked the lack of multimedia support (in UNIX) or Linux Windows never remembering their size or position by default as in MS windows. Also never liked all the junk programs the users of UNIX seem to like, as in the terminal... I spent enough time using a UNIX VAX at school that the entry of codes to process a simple task offends me. The command prompt in Windows seems easier to use.

    Actually, it is not my opinion that the SS is slick or cutesy or appealing. Not a fan of colorization limits on the SS or apps area. Also not a fan of tile auto colorization. How about no choice of SS movable wallpaper. Their offerings for SS designs are quite lame. There could be an option to resize the tiles (to more than large or small) or change them to any number of shapes instead of square. MS has always limited their customization options which gives developers the opportunity to sell their products. Maybe they have had talks with developers behind closed doors to encourage customization development. MS has already gotten into trouble with their browser by making it a part of the OS (before they got sued). Even still with 7, problems are ongoing and never end. Have a great night! Good Luck.
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  8. #28


    Australia
    Posts : 716
    Windows 7 Ult Reatil & Win 8 Pro OEM


    Quote Originally Posted by mdmd View Post
    Unfortunately, touch is a priority (not exclusive) to the OS model and would be ineffective with an orby menu.
    There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for a touch OS to be ineffective if the option is given to use either touch or traditional alpha-numeric cascaded start menu. It does not diminish the capabilities or effectiveness of touch/Metro in any way.

    In actual fact that's exactly what I am using right now in Enterprise W8 with the 'Ex7forW8' hacked orb start menu, which has a simple toggle switch to use either W7 Explorer with Orb start menu, or W8 explorer with Metro.

    The difference with this hack is that when installing it's necessary to insert the W7 disc so Explorer 7 files can be copied into the W8 OS. This means you get all the advantages of W8's increased speed, security, etc, etc ... but still retains the desired Explorer 7 features. One click and I'm back into native W8.

    Without wishing to debate it, as far as I'm concerned a cascaded alpha-numeric start menu will never die because it's more efficient than a tile menu ... period. No doubt many will disagree, and that's their prerogative, but I stand by this statement. Given an efficient operator, equally knowledgeable in both tile/alpha-numeric start menus, and a diverse set of inter-related, multi-function tasks to perform simultaneously, I have no doubt the time taken would be significantly greater using tile.

    I am equally convinced that if there was another company on a parity with MS offering an equally good OS with an orb start menu, and office with list instead of a ribbon, a very large percentage of consumers would swing over.

    People will adapt to MS because there's no where else to go. But that doesn't mean it's necessarily more efficient or embraced ... simply endured and learnt to live with. People learned to live under a Communist regime because they had no choice. It didn't mean it was a better system, or that they liked it.

    History also shows that over a given period of time fashions go through a cycle. Bell bottom trousers through to stove pipes and back again. Cars with ignition switches and a separate start button, to start button/ignition combined, and now back to ignition switch with separate start button in BMWs and others. With all tile menus we're back to the early windows versions; but it will eventually go full circle and come back to alpha-numeric cascaded start menu.

    If W7 has reached the peak possible efficiency as an OS in it's overall strucure, (not including improvements to sub-structures for security, speed, etc), then there would be no more new models coming out and MS would have nothing new to sell. I can use Office 2003 just as efficiently, if not more so, than Office 2010. So why have I got 2010? Because some sub-features are improved, and compatibility issues with interactions for spreadsheets when doing things like tax returns, etc.

    The big change in W8 is that it is a foray by MS into the touchfone/tablet/hybrid laptop market. And no one blames them for doing that since the traditional desktop has almost reached saturation point, while the portable device/phone market is evolving at an exponential rate.

    That does not mean the tradtional desktop is going away. It's not a case of either/or. It's a case of both/and. Almost everyone I know has both portable and desktop. As mentioned elsewhere in this forum, I am a memeber of a world wide self-help organization, and help members in my area who have computer problems on a pro bono basis; so my observations are not limited to my own group of personal friends.

    It is amazing how many persons, including myself, who still use XP for one reason or another. It might be as simple as a favorite legacy game, or being able to put background sound, picture or color in an email ... features not aviailable in WinLiveMail. And the lsit goes on.
    Last edited by Mustang; 19 Oct 2012 at 13:08.
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  9. #29


    Posts : 902
    Win8.1 Pro, Desktop Mode


    You can put lipstick on a pig..... but it's still a pig.
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  10. #30


    Posts : 1,127
    Windows 8.1 Pro


    I'm so confused by this thread... the start menu is there. it's just full screen now rather than 1/5 of the screen.

    it works pretty much just the same. you hit the windows key, you see the start menu. you start typing to see your apps and files, just like windows 7. you can organize it anyway you like, just like windows 7.
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