Why metro is great, and why I won't use it at all

[phailyoor]

Why it's great:
People are too stupid to manage their windows. I know I am overwhelmed when I have too many windows open, and I'm definitely better at using computers than most people. I know you don't want to admit it, but YOU cannot handle having many windows open either.

Window chrome wastes space. It is also hard to arrange multiple windows onscreen at the same time.

The lack of flashy looks makes text and buttons slightly faster to identify.

Why I will never use it:
HTML/Javascript is NOT a first class language:For example, the version of cut the rope completely rapes an atom/equivalent CPU, while the native version runs smoothly on the slower iPad. If microsoft is pushing HTML5/Javascript, EVERYTHING it says about battery life is COMPLETE BULL.

Windows RT lacks features:If it's impossible to write a good browser in it, then there are critical features missing from the runtime.

Not open:Every metro app needs to come through the store. I oppose this out of principle, and it's also practically bad. Maybe I have portable apps or something.

Normal programs don't run in it:100% of the programs I use do not have a metro version. Most probably never will. Microsoft could have made existing programs work with the metro switcher(windows are resizeable), and I would probably have used it on my tablet then.

Can't have 2 of the same thing side by side:like 2 web pages or email messages.

Can't run things in the background:What i want to download a torrent? What if I want to compile code? What if I want to render/encode a video?

No dual monitor support:duh

 

[conorcccc]

Totally agree with you on that, i never have 2 windows side by side, unless doing a comparison of 2 images.

 

[Mystere]

HTML/Javascript is NOT a first class language:For example, the version of cut the rope completely rapes an atom/equivalent CPU, while the native version runs smoothly on the slower iPad. If microsoft is pushing HTML5/Javascript, EVERYTHING it says about battery life is COMPLETE BULL.

Apparently, you're not aware that Metro apps can be written in many different languages. HTML5/JS is just one of the ways you can write for it. You can use C, C++, C#, or VB as well using the .NET framework. If HTML5/JS doesn't work for you, write it in the language that does.

Also note that Android uses a virtual machine just like Metro does. You aren't allowed to write native apps for Android like you do in iOS. Cut the rope runs fine on Android, so your native code argument is weak.

Windows RT lacks features:If it's impossible to write a good browser in it, then there are critical features missing from the runtime.

Not sure what you mean by "impossible to write a good browser in it". Browsers are highly complex and resource intensive applications and are not well suited to this sort of thing, which is why all mobile browsers only provide a subset of functionality.

Not open:Every metro app needs to come through the store. I oppose this out of principle, and it's also practically bad. Maybe I have portable apps or something.

You can side-load metro apps. You aren't required to use the store.

Normal programs don't run in it:100% of the programs I use do not have a metro version. Most probably never will. Microsoft could have made existing programs work with the metro switcher(windows are resizeable), and I would probably have used it on my tablet then.

Duh. I mean, Duh. Seriously? Your argument is that that you can't run normal apps in an environment that is specifically designed to NOT run normal apps? That's like saying you can's speak English when speaking Japanese. By definition, If you speak English, you are not speaking Japanese. The same is true of Metro. If you are running in Metro, by definition you aren't a Win32 app.

You seem to be confusing the interface with the subsystem. Metro apps run in an entirely different subsystem. That means, for all intents and purposes, they are running in an entirely new OS. You can't make legacy apps run in that without doing a whole lot of emulation or virtualization. Microsoft *IS* making win32 apps run side-by-side with Metro apps, so I really don't understand your argument.

Oh, and I'll bet there are apps that you use that do or will have Metro versions available. Do you use Chrome? Chromium Blog: Try Chrome in Metro mode Do you use FF? https://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox_Metro_UI What other apps do you use?

Can't have 2 of the same thing side by side:like 2 web pages or email messages.

Let's see you do that on Android or iOS. What? You can't? You know there's a reason for that, right?

Can't run things in the background:What i want to download a torrent? What if I want to compile code? What if I want to render/encode a video?

What are you talking about? There's a complete API for background tasks in Metro. By default apps are suspended when not the foreground task, but that's to conserve resources. If you want your app to run in the background, you can develop it to do so. Check any Radio app, for instance.

Here's a great article on doing things in the background Being productive when your app is offscreen - Windows 8 app developer blog - Site Home - MSDN Blogs

No dual monitor support:duh

You know, can't even use dual monitors in iOS or Android, because the devices don't allow you to. Metro is designed to be a cross platform API that works across all devices, which means it's limited in many ways.. and that's why desktop apps will always be here.

Great, you don't like Metro or it's apps. I think that's largely a function of the immaturity of Metro apps at this point, but ok. Why do you feel the need to make up stuff justifying your opinion? Why not just say you don't like it, and leave it at that? What compels you to claim things like Things can't be run in the background? I mean, it's provably false. Just run any Radio app.

By the way, I really like the Chrome in Metro mode. I despise the IE metro version.

 

[phailyoor]

Apparently, you're not aware that Metro apps can be written in many different languages. HTML5/JS is just one of the ways you can write for it. You can use C, C++, C#, or VB as well using the .NET framework. If HTML5/JS doesn't work for you, write it in the language that does.

I am aware of that. What doesn't work for me is that other programmers will write their not very nice programs in not very nice html5/javascript when they would be better in another language.
Facebook's Mark Zuckerberg knocks HTML5 in favor of native apps | ZDNet

Also note that Android uses a virtual machine just like Metro does. You aren't allowed to write native apps for Android like you do in iOS. Cut the rope runs fine on Android, so your native code argument is weak.

JVM != JS/crappy interpreted code. Also, have you heard of NDK? A lot of optimized driod apps use it.

Not sure what you mean by "impossible to write a good browser in it". Browsers are highly complex and resource intensive applications and are not well suited to this sort of thing, which is why all mobile browsers only provide a subset of functionality.

Firefox on Windows Metro on ARM - Asa Dotzler: Firefox and more

Duh. I mean, Duh. Seriously? Your argument is that that you can't run normal apps in an environment that is specifically designed to NOT run normal apps? That's like saying you can's speak English when speaking Japanese. By definition, If you speak English, you are not speaking Japanese. The same is true of Metro. If you are running in Metro, by definition you aren't a Win32 app.

You seem to be confusing the interface with the subsystem. Metro apps run in an entirely different subsystem. That means, for all intents and purposes, they are running in an entirely new OS. You can't make legacy apps run in that without doing a whole lot of emulation or virtualization. Microsoft *IS* making win32 apps run side-by-side with Metro apps, so I really don't understand your argument.

Oh, and I'll bet there are apps that you use that do or will have Metro versions available. Do you use Chrome? Chromium Blog: Try Chrome in Metro mode Do you use FF? https://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox_Metro_UI What other apps do you use?

FF, Chrome, and IE in metro ARE win32 programs with metro skins. All FF, Chrome and IE code is win32, except for the metro skin. MS could have allowed this for other programs too. All the infrastructure is there to run win32 apps in metro. Only one won32 browser with metro skin can exist at once.

You can side-load metro apps. You aren't required to use the store.

You can't. Well, unless you pay a pile of cash for an enterprise license and get a kms server and certificates. Sounds fun.

What are you talking about? There's a complete API for background tasks in Metro. By default apps are suspended when not the foreground task, but that's to conserve resources. If you want your app to run in the background, you can develop it to do so. Check any Radio app, for instance.

Here's a great article on doing things in the background Being productive when your app is offscreen - Windows 8 app developer blog - Site Home - MSDN Blogs

A sucky API. Not good enough. Can it torrent? No. Can it render video? No. Can it do compute tasks? no.

 

[Coke Robot]

You have things a bit wrong with the metro design. The coding language as Mystere said can be done different ways. Does it mean HTML and Javascript are going to be exclusively used? No, not at all. A Windows developer would know that.

As for multitasking, I have a feeling you never properly tried out or explored ALL of Windows 8. Saying that the metro aspect doesn't multitasking is complete posh. You can have music playing in the background, and when a torrent client does come out for WinRT, it'll use that API or otherwise it'd be redundent to use.

 

[Mystere]

So what you're saying is that you're aware that everything you said was incorrect. I see. You don't work for Mitt Romney, do you? Say a bunch of stuff then have to walk it back after you're confronted by it?

Mark Zuckerberg's problem with HTML5 is that it's not fully supported yet, particularly in the mobile space. That's not a problem in Metro, because HTML5 apps all use the same rendering engine rather than relying on different clients.

Frankly, if you find an app to be not very nice, nobody is forcing you to use it.

Regarding browsers, the problem is that Microsoft is not allowing native code on ARM. If you're going to write a browser, then you need native code for a lot of reasons. You can do this on x86. It has nothing to do with Metro itself, other than the fact that there are certain apps you wouldn't write in it. Just like you wouldn't write a modern performing browser in Java either.

Regardless of whether or not the Metro browsers run Win32 code, they also run Metro code, and you claimed there were 0% of the apps you use that have Metro versions, and I think that's not true.

And yes, you can use the Background API to run any code you want. You can write torrent code, or compute tasks. I'm not sure what the point of rendering video to a screen you can't see is.

 

[phailyoor]

Everything I said is correct. All of my responses are confirmations of my original statements, except in the cases that my statements were unclearly worded. Even so, I do not acknowledge the incorrectness of any of my statements.

FB is going away from HTML5 because performance is rubbish, not because of lack of support. Have you tried using the FB apps? Making a crap language an OPTION means that more people will use that option. That's a bad thing. No one is forcing me to use them, but the fact that they EXIST is already a bad thing.

A "metro style browser" is not really a metro app. Maybe I was unclear, but it's just a metro skin for a win32 backend. It's not actually a metro version of the app.

You can use the background API, except you're limited in the CPU time, resource use, etc. Have you heard of video editing, and how it takes a lot of time and resources?

 

[jimbo45]

Totally agree with you on that, i never have 2 windows side by side, unless doing a comparison of 2 images.

Hi there

Forget the "Techno Geek" gabble for a minute.

Try talking to a BUSINESS USER .

You've obviously never had to translate some documents from language A into Language B -- or use a spreadsheet where you need to compare say this years sales volumes against those of the past 3 years.

Many other scenarios need multiple windows concurrently open too.

For some applications you REALLY DO need multiple concurrent windows. --We don't all run our PC's like they are are smart phones.

Cheers
jimbo

 

[pparks1]

Totally agree with you on that, i never have 2 windows side by side, unless doing a comparison of 2 images.

i do this all of the time. As a systems administrator, I'm always comparing files on 1 server and another. Or running a script and watching a performance monitor. I've almost always got multiple windows open, side by side, and on top and below other windows on my monitor.

 

[R0bR]

You can use the background API, except you're limited in the CPU time, resource use, etc. Have you heard of video editing, and how it takes a lot of time and resources?

Here you go, video editing in Windows 8 with a Metro App...

Create and edit video on-the-go with PowerDirector Mobile

Regardless of it's simplicity, although it was designed that way for a reason, it's still video editing that is apparently not possible in Metro according to you. Perhaps you should wait and see what the developers come up with as far as Apps are concerned before judging based on just over 2000 currently available.

 

[Coke Robot]

I've never heard of the background task API limiting app performance. I know Windows Phone has it, but not Windows. It will just shift resources around. Even then, CPU time isn't limited in anyway. Every single day and every single night since I've installed the Windows 8 RTM, I've been running the Xbox Music app and it does stop regardless. I've had a couple of app crashes, but that's the app's crappy coding.

Just for everyone's sake, the Windows Store according to a third party has a bit over 4,000 metro apps.

 

[phailyoor]

Being productive when your app is offscreen - Windows 8 app developer blog - Site Home - MSDN Blogs

These background tasks ... have resource constraints imposed on them to make it easy to perform background activity in a power-friendly manner.