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This will be Microsofts biggest ever flop, far bigger than Vista.


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R0bR

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I'm just curious as to why Microsoft is cutting their own throat? The biggest purchaser(s) of Windows is their corporate customers (businesses). They WON'T be using fancy touchscreens in a business environment, so I see a ton of lost revenue for Microsoft out the door when said businesses decide to move from Windows 7. Secondly as I read this forum on a daily basis I can see that the consumer end of purchasers won't be buying it either, will be a Windows XP debacle and like with Windows XP, users will be staying with Windows 7.
They aren't cutting their own throats, they know that OS adoption at the enterprise level is slow, their main target for W8 is consumers. There's a reason why so many companies are still migrating from XP to 7 so any adoption into W8 is not in the near future. Also there would be no lost revenue because Microsoft will make their money whether they stick with 7 or move to 8.

RIM, Kodak and many other companies had dominant positionsv but were unable to understand the users needs which caused them to fail. I really don't think Microsoft is meeting the needs of a desktop user with this interface. They are just in a panic mode.
RIM and Kodak failed because they were too slow to adopt technology. RIM has yet to put a decent smartphone out and Kodak took forever to get into digitial imaging and fell behind quickly. Microsoft also got in late but at least they made the move.
 

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Night Hawk

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We'll see in the long run how things go once 8 is out for a period of time. Watching the rumor mills at this time is still a bit premature however as far as guess work on whether 8 will top or flop! One blog writer summed things up nicely in saying that MS was taking a big gambit with 8.

I think we all have come to realize the slow to adapt trend that will follow due to how MS is bringing in the drastic gui changes and how most will react initially. Where MS fails is not from bringing in changes but not allowing any options for the user base.
 

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lehnerus2000

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Agreed

I think we all have come to realize the slow to adapt trend that will follow due to how MS is bringing in the drastic gui changes and how most will react initially. Where MS fails is not from bringing in changes but not allowing any options for the user base.
IMO, the reasons for slow adoption of new operating systems are:
  • Broken software
  • Hardware requirements
  • Retraining
IMO, upgrading would be a "no brainer", if W8 was W7 with:
  • Improved security & speed
  • Reduced resource footprint
  • No retraining required
IT managers would be saying to the "bean counters", "Forget about upgrading to W7. We should upgrade to W8."
 
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Night Hawk

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Broken software is the general rule why most businesses are found to be hesitant about upgrading the OS every few years. The softwares developed for them may not be compatible as well as all of the other office wares requiring a newer version. Then of course the retraining for a newer OS being implimented can easily get in the way.

As far as hardware requirements we saw where MS made the biggest goof with Vista by understating the actual minimum requirements needed particularly as far as 2gb for the 32bit and 2.5gb for the 64bit flavors there. The larger newer version also sadly lacked the extend of backward compatibility for XP programs later found to run on the 32bit 7!

The MinWin development going even further would be the lighter footprint 7 initially brought in being improved on as well as MS now deciding to include a working av program that lies dormant while any other software is on. That was a step they could have seen in 7 but held off for the next to come when the original Windows Defender proved to be nothing more then a title for something that simply didn't work.

The improvement as far as speed however is mainly due to the one registry tweak seen with the WaitToKillServices value being lowered down from what was default in 7 which in turn was lowered down from the same higher value seen with the two previous versions of XP and Vista. That effects shutdown not startup boot time however. A lighter footprint as far as bootloader would be the key note. "Trimming the Fat" would be another way to look at stripping things out of the loading process as the gui loads into ram.
 

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Not that dumb, but some controls are not easy to find..

That's the problem for me
 

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pparks1

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Yeah, lack of start button or ability to add one back without 3rd party is a huge complaint....and a very understandable one at that.
 

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AC

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Okay, I haven't read through this thread, so sorry if this is repeat.

Why was Vista a flop? Was it because it was a bad OS? No. It was because of hardware problems. It was more demanding and resource hogging than old 2K and XP. Run Vista on decent hardware, and it was a pretty good OS. Now, why does 8 have the chance to be a flop? Because of Metro. IMO, I think some people don't like it because it is CHANGE. A lot of people don't like change, and that's why people hate it. Now, yes, 8 is built for a touch screen monitor, but it is a decent OS on a regular monitor and mouse and keyboard system. 8 is fast, and stable, and if you give consumers the option to disable Metro, it will do FAR better than if you don't.


714
 

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gulls777

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I understand that microsoft is trying to pull customers to its windows mobile OS , nothing wrong with it as long as they give an option to turn metro off for those who don't want to use it, and also bring the eyecandy of windows explorer back.
 

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SIW2

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I like change. Most people do. That is why they buy new things - that is why we all have mobile phones. That is why "New" is often plastered all over packaging for all kinds of products.

I don't like win8.
 

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FSeal

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The more I use it (my guest system) the more broken it gets. IE 10 is unusable over the long term, too many web sites broken, had to install FF. I generally know how to unbreak websites while maintaining security on IE too, but it's gotten even harder now. For me to have to install FF is yet another major black mark for Win 8.

And I'm not talking about the completely unusable Metro IE10, this is with the desktop version, the masses will have even less luck.
 

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mdmd

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On this thread again - yikes :confused:


I don't like win8.
That's OK. I don't like Windows 7 or Linux (any version). Don't care for Apple stuff either. I have no smartphone, no tablet, no laptop, no touch device of any kind, and find 8 easy to use with a mouse and keyboard... and have been using it exclusively as my only OS for a full year now.

And I'm not talking about the completely unusable Metro IE10, this is with the desktop version, the masses will have even less luck.
Curious, "completely unusable Metro IE10" ?? I have been using it for a year and really appreciate the new design and how well it works. The full screen only Metro IE eliminates the need to constantly resize and move windows. The command bar and the tabs at the top of screen also work very well. The desktop IE is a great browser. No problems here.

if you give consumers the option to disable Metro, it will do FAR better than if you don't.
give an option to turn metro off for those who don't want to use it
Turning "off" the metro is turning "off" a part of the Windows 8 Operating System. Disabling the start screen, the all apps area, the edge UI (charms), the hotspots, thumbnails, semantic zoom features and metro apps (including the metro IE), the store, etc... is a return to the past which is fine and ok if that is where you want to be.
 

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Max Peck

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It'll grow on you. I guarantee it, it did for me.

Actually, my only REAL worry with it is this bloody push to the cloud.

Ain't going. No way. No how. Not gonna happen.
Can't agree. Grow on me it absolutely did not. The more I used it, the less I liked it. The Aero desktop on my systems looked better and better. With Win8 I not only had an ugly "Modern" front-end but the desktop was ugly as hell to boot. Absolutely nothing about it is attractive in any way as far as I'm concerned.

I will probably always be a Microsoft developer but it will be with the products I've already purchased. If Microsoft continues on this stupid "Modern" track with all their GUI's then they won't see any more of my dollars unless I'm buying another copy of Win7 or something. I bought a brand-spanking-new notebook system to avoid the Win8 transition. It's solid, locked down and should do fine for a long time. Bye Win8.

As for the cloud point, I agree completely. I use a little bit of cloud storage as backup, but I will not place anything critical out there that I can't afford to lose. No way, no how, not gonna happen! ;-)

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FSeal

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Metro IE10s unusability comes from the fact that you CAN'T resize it. Also the Flash doesn't work half the places you go. Coupled with the the don't track feature (which is good in theory) there are sites that you simply can't see or log into.

Everyone has their set fave sites they go to and those sites are different for everyone. If you've somehow managed to not get caught with IE10's OOB incomptability, consider yourself lucky. It's the #1 reason I DON'T use FF or Chrome, they are broken on too many sites. IE /used to/ be most compatible. With IE10 that is looking like it's no longer the case.
 

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lehnerus2000

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It's the #1 reason I DON'T use FF or Chrome, they are broken on too many sites. IE /used to/ be most compatible. With IE10 that is looking like it's no longer the case.
I can't say I've noticed that with FF.
When I have site problems, it's usually because NoScript is blocking the hundreds of cascading js routines (and Flash widgets) that seem to be the norm these days.

IE10 is supposed to be more standards compliant.
It's nowhere near as compliant as Chrome (which I don't like/use) or even FF.

Seems like you are saying too many sites are still coded for IE6.
 

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Max Peck

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I still think that Microsoft would have been better off by starting from scratch with a tablet O/S and not trying to integrate the two directly. Instead of screwing around with desktop Windows (which is wildly successful), the tablet O/S should have been developed specifically for tablet machines. In the desktop version of the O/S just provide a subsystem that will allow the user to run the "Modern" apps if they want to and craft Visual Studio to develop to the tablet O/S. Leave the desktop totally alone and add on the pieces necessary to support the tablet experience.

But no ... Microsoft had to try and shove everybody down the same pipe. Even non "Metro" (I mean "Modern") stuff (including their web sites) are all taking on the flat "chromeless" look. IMO this is a major overkill.

On my sytem I went to make a change to a mouse setting. The normal desktop Control-Panel utility comes up but the tab for the mouse settings is now empty except for a link. Click the link then (after waiting 15 seconds or so) another application loads with the mouse settings. It looks just like Metro (I mean Modern). It looks very patched sitting there on an Aero desktop. There was no reason to rework that whole thing just so it looks like Metro ... it looks like a hack and is slow as hell when loading. It's almost all whitespace and knowing where to click things requires hovering the mouse over text in different places. The concept of control buttons on forms seems to be going away. Ugly as hell.

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Night Hawk

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Okay, I haven't read through this thread, so sorry if this is repeat.

Why was Vista a flop? Was it because it was a bad OS? No. It was because of hardware problems. It was more demanding and resource hogging than old 2K and XP. Run Vista on decent hardware, and it was a pretty good OS. Now, why does 8 have the chance to be a flop? Because of Metro. IMO, I think some people don't like it because it is CHANGE. A lot of people don't like change, and that's why people hate it. Now, yes, 8 is built for a touch screen monitor, but it is a decent OS on a regular monitor and mouse and keyboard system. 8 is fast, and stable, and if you give consumers the option to disable Metro, it will do FAR better than if you don't.


714
Well spoken! Vista is a good OS if you are running the older version on adequate hardwares starting off with at least 2gb of memory despite the MS goof originally made about a 512mb minimum! The OEMs loved the way they "cut corners" still seeing new desktops and laptops shipped out with only 512mb installed.

The security and stability issues that compromised XP were addressed in Vista however as well as the improved crash control. XP would simply end up blue screening far more often. Compatibility issues with older programs and lack of drivers suppoort were the main items on the list however besides the larger kernel that tended to weight the older version down ended up seeing a bad rep.

The CP here was found to be reliable as well for what it was being a new version with some enhancements and a few much needed improvements as far as the MS side of virus/malware protection namely a renamed MS Security Essentials to replace a worthless Windows Defender that never did much! Other core elements have also seen a further development of the MinWin kernel brought in first with 7. At least MS is continuing on with the modular type kernel to see that part of Windows made progressive.

The way MS decided to trash the desktop concept however by the way they implemented the "Modern" or whatever it will carry for a name is why most are up in arms about the drastic gui changes best suited for an embedded OS not for any form of standard desktop platform.

I like change. Most people do. That is why they buy new things - that is why we all have mobile phones. That is why "New" is often plastered all over packaging for all kinds of products.

I don't like win8.
At first I had to get used to the changes even 7 brought in while they were found to be favorable and well orchestrated over the contrast seen with 8. When speaking about Vista with it's sidebar annoyance you could easily disable that from auto loading. Not the Modern however!

It's not simply bringing in the Start screen idea for touchscreen monitors making this type of interface available but how MS went about stripping the common denominators of a traditional desktop OS out without leaving any options for the user! The 3.1 to 95 change of gui there was the best move MS ever made gui wise and was seen as progress.

Touchscreen support was improved with 7 but how MS is trashing the Desktop for Modern? How MS is bringing the gui changes this time however leaves much to be desired. While playing party favors to rivel the fruit company on the mobile market along with any improvement as far as touchscreen technology they seem to have abandoned the desktop user!

So how does it look in the long run? Here without being able to set WMP as the default playback medium for video capture/vcd projects and relying on some 3rd party program like VLC 7 still picks up the slack 8 would now be bringing in! Compatibility issues to some extent otherwise would be the normal thing to expect to some extent with any new version to come.

As for IE while one version will come default with each new version to follow IE 6 for XP, IE 7 for Vista, IE 8 for 7, and now IE 10 for 8 IE 8 seems to have been the best so far with 7 being a vast improvement for Vista to replace the practically useless IE 6 filled with too many security holes. IE 9 could be problematic while the beta for 10 had been looking better.

With the 64bit Windows in use here the solution was to be found elsewhere however yet still needing IE at times for a select list of things like software updates. The next version however is still seeing some rough edges until being finalized and seen out with 8 and no longer just the beta form as seen with the CP and RP builds. Once you see IE 10 available for Vista/7 then you will know the finished 10 is out.
 

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lehnerus2000

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XP vs IE9

Once you see IE 10 available for Vista/7 then you will know the finished 10 is out.
Assuming that MS doesn't pull an "XP vs IE9" manoeuvre.
 

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[h=1]Paul Allen likes Windows 8 -- well, except for a few things[/h]...But the dual modes may be pretty confusing for users, especially when two versions of the same application, like Internet Explorer, can be opened and run simultaneously.
Windows 8 does certainly require a brief adjustment period before users become familiar and comfortable with the new bimodal operating system," Allen noted. For one criticism, Windows doesn't allow users to start their systems with the desktop as the default view, something Allen says should be an option. Instead, they start in the Windows 8 style. And the "Charms" bar, which offers access to important features like search and settings, isn't easily obviously to users.

What Allen found most "puzzling" was adjusting to the new features as a traditional desktop user. For example, he had a hard time using multiple monitors, and the system would sometimes switch between the two modes when he didn't really want it to.

"Personally, I would almost always prefer for Windows to leave me in whichever mode I was already in," Allen said.

Full article at:
Paul Allen likes Windows 8 -- well, except for a few things | Microsoft - CNET News
 

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It's the #1 reason I DON'T use FF or Chrome, they are broken on too many sites. IE /used to/ be most compatible. With IE10 that is looking like it's no longer the case.
I can't say I've noticed that with FF.
When I have site problems, it's usually because NoScript is blocking the hundreds of cascading js routines (and Flash widgets) that seem to be the norm these days.

IE10 is supposed to be more standards compliant.
It's nowhere near as compliant as Chrome (which I don't like/use) or even FF.

Seems like you are saying too many sites are still coded for IE6.
I'm not sure what the problem is, it may just be buggy websites not tested on IE 10 yet. It may be the no tracking feature which defintely breaks some sites that are trying to track you (and that's nearly all of them). In the end it really doesn't matter what the cause is. If IE 10 is broken OOTB on enough sites then that'll be a black eye for it an Windows 8.

I've been an IE booster since 7 over anything else because of site compatibility, but IE 10 is eroding that quickly now that I've been using it a lot...
 

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Paul Allen likes Windows 8 -- well, except for a few things

...But the dual modes may be pretty confusing for users, especially when two versions of the same application, like Internet Explorer, can be opened and run simultaneously.
Windows 8 does certainly require a brief adjustment period before users become familiar and comfortable with the new bimodal operating system," Allen noted. For one criticism, Windows doesn't allow users to start their systems with the desktop as the default view, something Allen says should be an option. Instead, they start in the Windows 8 style. And the "Charms" bar, which offers access to important features like search and settings, isn't easily obviously to users.

What Allen found most "puzzling" was adjusting to the new features as a traditional desktop user. For example, he had a hard time using multiple monitors, and the system would sometimes switch between the two modes when he didn't really want it to.

"Personally, I would almost always prefer for Windows to leave me in whichever mode I was already in," Allen said.

Full article at:
Paul Allen likes Windows 8 -- well, except for a few things | Microsoft - CNET News
I've been positive from the get-go that the entire forced metro experience was entirely a marketing descision, not an engineering one. I'm SURE that the actual product designers and engineers would not have made Win 8 the way it is now. It has "Designed by Marketing" written all over it.
 

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