This will be Microsofts biggest ever flop, far bigger than Vista.

[HippsieGypsie]

I am the oldest member on the Forum - 83!

By the way, my first car was a "T" bought at auction during WWII for $25!

The way to test how old someone is, ask to explain how the Ford planetary transmission worked.

Tully

Awesome

You can read Tully's story here: http://www.eightforums.com/chillout-room/7538-personal-computer-related-memories-i-remember.html

It would be nice to see you post yours.

 

[tcman50]

I like things big and floppy

 

[FSeal]

I am the oldest member on the Forum - 83!

By the way, my first car was a "T" bought at auction during WWII for $25!

The way to test how old someone is, ask to explain how the Ford planetary transmission worked.

Tully

Awesome

You can read Tully's story here: http://www.eightforums.com/chillout-room/7538-personal-computer-related-memories-i-remember.html

It would be nice to see you post yours.

I did! You even thanked me for it..

 

[jimbo45]

Where exactly has it been said (other than people possibly over-reacting) that everything will be funneled through the Microsoft Store. As I understand it both the ARM/Pro versions of Win8 have the Desktop area, so anyone can use whichever regular non-metro browser they perfer to download and install whatever program they want from whichever download location they want to.

Why isn't there this same hysteria with Androids and the Android Marketplace/Google Play? Or iWhatevers and the Apple Store? I would say that Microsoft are giving you more choices than either of those platforms.

All METRO apps will have to go through the Microsoft store according to Microsoft. Desktop apps which may come from the app store in the future, can at least be installed outside of it for now. If you want o use Metro and use a Metro app, it has to come from Microsoft's store.

This is one of the reasons people Hate Apple BTW.

On Android you can at least sideload apps without going through the store. (Maybe there is a hacky way to do this on Win 8, I don't know yet)

But the big deal with this over the iPad/iPhone and Android is, those ecosystems started out with an app store from the get go whereas MS is slowly changing an age old independent platform OVER to their own total control. A lot of future apps may NOT be available on the desktop, but ONLY through the Metro app store and that'll suck for people that don;t want to have anything to do with it. MS is splitting the windows developer camp in two and putting that burdon on the users.

Forcing metro apps through the app store is a dodgy definition of an additional "choice". It's wrapped in a serious concern for the future of app distribution on windows. No serious app developer (i.e. Adobe) is going to give MS 30% of their cut! (Without raising their price by 30% anyway). You think photoshop is expensive now... wait till you have to buy it through the MS store in Windows 9!

The time to start fighting against that "hysterical" outcome is NOW, not after there is no longer any choice.

Hi there
The whole "App store" idea for Windows is a total waste of time -- apart from the fact that even a company of Ms's size won't have the infrastructure and payment procedures in place to pay x million developers a few cents every week - each invoice plus tax would probably cost Ms 3 - 5 dollars to start with so they'd lose on every download even if they could satisfy the demand.

Also most small developers won't believe or put up with for an instant some of the large corporation B/S that invoices are only paid every 90 or in extreme cases 180 days - either. Even 30 days after invoice submission can be a problem for the small developer.

I've worked on enough Freelance projects where I've always rejected any contract unless I get paid within 7 days of invoice -- it's actually not the client but the agency who trots out 30 / 60 days b/s -- I just refuse and the agency comes back and we agree on 7 days.

I know many Freelance contractors who have trouble with these long payment times from agencies (and say at 900 - 1000 EUR a day or even 500 - 600 EUR -- if you have to wait 60 days and something goes wrong that's a HUGE amount of money to have at risk - and of course if you haven't any other income meantime --- your imagination can do the rest).

There's still a HUGE difference in typical commercial applications like Adobe Photoshop or CS5 and a "Micky Mouse" type of application giving you train or London Bus times on a mobile phone (useful though this type of stuff can be).

On Android anyway most of the decent apps are free and the whole thing was designed like this from the outset -- plus you can install apps from anywhere if you want to.

Windows software comes from loads of different organisations -- some HUGE like ORACLE, ADOBE and SAP. Do you for ONE MICRO SECOND think these organisations will allow some cheap off shored "Cheech and Chong" outfit to run quality control and code inspection before the stuff goes on to an "approved" Ms app store.

Seriously forget the whole deal here. Ms you are wasting your time --don't try and "Out Apple" Apple -- Apple will soon be in a problem anyway -- Ipods -- who needs to use any more, Iphones look positively clunky against modern newcomers like Samsung Galaxy III s and HTC's phones. All they have now is the ITunes stuff and some diehard Mac fanboys who will continue to buy mac books whatever they cost.

Cheers
jimbo

 

[Mike Lonewolf]

I like things big and floppy

Hands tcman50 a 5 1/4 floppy disk, you get the drive

 

[Night Hawk]

A simple keyboard shortcut (Win+C) brings up the "Charms Bar". What is all the "FUSS" about!

Tully

Because it's 100% unintuitive (like 90% of the Metro UI).

99.9999999% of the users will NEVER know that works. They will just be completely stymied by the missing functionality or annoyed by the rightfully annoying "magic" hot corners.

To this day, YEARS after it was implemented, ANYONE that sees me press Win+E to bring up explorer /invariably/ says "How did you do that?"

Shortcut keys are ok for the pros but completely useless to everyone else. It's a BAD USER PARADIGM to be considered the primary way of getting to it. Hot corners are pretty much just as bad. All that stuff used to be on the much more intuitive and easy to find and use start menu.

Start menu traded away for hidden, hard to find, hard to use menu == not an improvement in any way.

One ZDNet blog writer summed it up as a "convoluted process" requiring extra steps to move around as well as find and use things like the shutdown options. Even if you had a touchscreen monitor on right now and were just now looking at 8 you would be lost wondering "where do I press?".

I'm aware of numerous keyboard shortcuts for 3rd party apps as well as seen in Windows but hardly use any! What then happens to all those "one finger typers"?! I actually remove the Windows sybol key from the keyboard used on the main system here to avoid bumping that while running a full screen app.

As far as opening up a second WE or IE windows simply holding the shift key and once again clicking on the shortcut of either will bring up a new window. Yet I still keep a second short on a Quick Launch type addon tool bar. The keys most often used would be the ctrl-alt-del, del or other for entering the bios setup, and the assigned F for bringing up the boot device menu at post time. The rest of the time it's "point and click" for all those 99.999999999%!

 

[lehnerus2000]

Indeed

To this day, YEARS after it was implemented, ANYONE that sees me press Win+E to bring up explorer /invariably/ says "How did you do that?"

Same here. I find nobody but my fellow IT staffers using the keyboard shortcuts.

I still meet people who don't know about:

• "Ctrl + A" (Select All)
• "Ctrl + C" (Copy)
• "Ctrl + X" (Cut)
• "Ctrl + V" (Paste)
• "Ctrl + Y" (Redo)
• "Ctrl + Z" (Undo)

To this day, YEARS after it was implemented, ANYONE that sees me press Win+E to bring up explorer /invariably/ says "How did you do that?"

I never knew that. I guess I learn a new keyboard shortcut every day.

Windows 7 - Shortcut Keys for Windows 7
Shortcut Keys for Windows 7 - Windows 7 Forums

 

[Night Hawk]

How many people I know on a personal level even know about keyboard shortcuts to start with unless they read the installation and user guide for a program that mentioned having any? Not too many! And some of these people having running Windows since the 9x Legacy days!

You can also work your way around the desktop and run programs without a mouse if you would like! How many will run any OS without a "point and clicker" however? Again not too many! A keyboard only OS wouldn't be too user friendly for the majority of users regardless of what their experience levels are. 2+2 doesn't equal 5!

 

[pparks1]

I still meet people who don't know about:

• "Ctrl + A" (Select All)
• "Ctrl + C" (Copy)
• "Ctrl + X" (Cut)
• "Ctrl + V" (Paste)
• "Ctrl + Y" (Redo)
• "Ctrl + Z" (Undo)

These are the ones that I use;

• "Ctrl + A" (Select All)
• "Ctrl + C" (Copy)
• "Ctrl + X" (Cut)
• "Ctrl + V" (Paste)
• "Ctrl + Z" (Undo)
• "WIN + E" (Explorer)
• "WIN + R" (Run)
• "ALT -F4" (Close Window)

 

[Night Hawk]

I haven't been in any rush to reinstall the RP onto the second OS drive here simply being busy putting another 7 build together lately! As I was mentioning on another thread over at SF MS seems to be trying to grab the Linux "Geek's OS" labeling away and applying it to what comes after 7!

Another question I posed was how do you recommend 8 to the novice user who now needs to move up from XP or even Vista into a newer version? W8 is a hard one for that! People will rather chance it with malwares running a version that suits them over running something they get lost with in a heart beat despite any improvements in security.

Here if I need something to work I'll find a way to make it do just that. But the people you make any recommendations to you have to go by their own needs and levels of experience not simply slap a Geeks Only type OS in their faces. As far as any VM you expect to be limited on just what you can do there anyways.

 

[Mike Lonewolf]

Night Hawk said:

do you recommend 8 to the novice user who now needs to move up from XP or even Vista into a newer version?

Tell me about it. I been showing the RP to people and they LOOK scared of it. As I told them, they will need to re-learn how to use Windows ALL over again.

 

[lehnerus2000]

I still meet people who don't know about:

• "Ctrl + A" (Select All)
• "Ctrl + C" (Copy)
• "Ctrl + X" (Cut)
• "Ctrl + V" (Paste)
• "Ctrl + Y" (Redo)
• "Ctrl + Z" (Undo)

These are the ones that I use;

• "Ctrl + A" (Select All)
• "Ctrl + C" (Copy)
• "Ctrl + X" (Cut)
• "Ctrl + V" (Paste)
• "Ctrl + Z" (Undo)
• "WIN + E" (Explorer)
• "WIN + R" (Run)
• "ALT -F4" (Close Window)

I constantly use the ones I listed.

I also often use:

• "WIN + Pause/Break" (System Properties)
• "WIN + Arrows" (Window Snap)
• "Shift + End/Home" (Selecting)

I only use "WIN + E" (Explorer) in XP.

In Windows 7, I use the pinned Windows Explorer icon + Jump List.

​

 

[Max Peck]

A simple keyboard shortcut (Win+C) brings up the "Charms Bar". What is all the "FUSS" about!

Tully

Because it's 100% unintuitive (like 90% of the Metro UI).

99.9999999% of the users will NEVER know that works. They will just be completely stymied by the missing functionality or annoyed by the rightfully annoying "magic" hot corners.

To this day, YEARS after it was implemented, ANYONE that sees me press Win+E to bring up explorer /invariably/ says "How did you do that?"

Shortcut keys are ok for the pros but completely useless to everyone else. It's a BAD USER PARADIGM to be considered the primary way of getting to it. Hot corners are pretty much just as bad. All that stuff used to be on the much more intuitive and easy to find and use start menu.

Start menu traded away for hidden, hard to find, hard to use menu == not an improvement in any way.

When I watch my wife use her Windows machine I try to envision what she would do if I rebuilt her box with Win8. As soon as she would see Metro, she'd wonder what the heck she was going to do and go nuts trying to remember the places you have to hover the mouse to bring up hidden "charms" bars and action menus.

There may be some people that think breaking the desktop paradigm into two separate GUI presentations is a good idea but as a 35-year software development veteran I am not one of them.

-Max

 

[Night Hawk]

I can second the notion on that! For the novice "geek" just starting they wouldn't be accustomed to much of anything and simply say "Hey this is the new stuff!" while the long time Windows user simply frowns and asks 'Why did MS trash the OS?".

No one has any doubts that 8 will be one for the books! If the retail comes out looking the same without options for standard items to some extend a good majority are likely to shun it. The Preview being the intentional rename from beta or RC however could very suggest a "preview" while not revealing the full story as far as what the RTMs will look like. But you can get a good idea of where MS is headed with 8.

 

[lehnerus2000]

Windows 8 Keyboard Shortcuts

Here's a list of keyboard shortcuts provided by A Guy.

Windows 8 Keyboard Shortcuts
http://www.eightforums.com/general-discussion/2355-windows-eight-keyboard-shortcuts.html

 

[Dave76]

Night Hawk said:

do you recommend 8 to the novice user who now needs to move up from XP or even Vista into a newer version?

Tell me about it. I been showing the RP to people and they LOOK scared of it. As I told them, they will need to re-learn how to use Windows ALL over again.

On the flip side, I have given a 1 minute brief instruction, told them it's just like Win7 but with a start screen instead of start menu.
They are off and running with no issues.

These are consumption users, in the large general user category.

In statistics, surveys can be skewed by the wording of the question and presentation.

 

[Mike Lonewolf]

I agree there Dave, BUT my demo took place at a Walmarts's computer department, where the average age of the group was 45 - 50 years old. The earliest O/S they had used was Windows 98. (consensus), and not a single one cared/liked Metro. Even a large section of that group said they will not buy Windows 8. I had gotten the feeling from them Windows 7 will be the next XP.

 

[phailyoor]

Night Hawk said:

do you recommend 8 to the novice user who now needs to move up from XP or even Vista into a newer version?

Tell me about it. I been showing the RP to people and they LOOK scared of it. As I told them, they will need to re-learn how to use Windows ALL over again.

On the flip side, I have given a 1 minute brief instruction, told them it's just like Win7 but with a start screen instead of start menu.
They are off and running with no issues.

These are consumption users, in the large general user category.

In statistics, surveys can be skewed by the wording of the question and presentation.

True. The new start menu is not THAT different from the old one, and as long as you ignore all of that preinstalled metro crap, it's only a very small change form windows 7.

 

[Night Hawk]

The first thing I did here was simply remove any and alll Metro apps looking at it as OEM Bloatwares!



The thing I hate is how programs install items there you don't want taking up space and not creating desktop shortcut you can pin or drag into an addon toolbar.

As far as the reactions upon initial sight of 8 the ballot has been cast already! Most will automatically reject the changes to start with regardless of whatever better stuff MS put into it. This is why will likely see the "Geek's OS" labeling on it since only the more advanced will even prefer to run it. New systems sold with 8 will likely be sent back asking for Vista or 7 if not XP like Dell offers the choice of OS on their brand there.

I waited for Vista and later waited for 7 to be launched but for 8 I "can wait"! But I still have the bad feeling and I don't like bad feelings about things! Someone should have screens shortly however since the RTM milestone has been reached for what the finished 8 looks like.

 

[phailyoor]

The first thing I did here was simply remove any and alll Metro apps looking at it as OEM Bloatwares!

View attachment 7551

The thing I hate is how programs install items there you don't want taking up space and not creating desktop shortcut you can pin or drag into an addon toolbar.

It's the start menu. When you install new programs, they add themselves to the start menu. It's worked this way since windows 95. Also, it's the choice of the developer whether or not to add an icon to the desktop. Stuff like steam and firefox still does, bot a lot of other devs choose not to.