This will be Microsofts biggest ever flop, far bigger than Vista.

[legacy7955]

I do not understand why the desktop tile is such a problem.
This is the 8 forum, I guess.
(all apps can be removed from start page)

Clicking the desktop tile (less than 1 second) and the office desktop is there.
Pressing the Winkey or mouse gesture to bottom left to launch something ...

Is this a difficult task?

p.s. I am not trying to convince.
Simply do not understand where the difficulty is.

Why should the customer be diverted (even for a few seconds) from getting to the desktop due to something they will NEVER use (Metro).

ESPECIALLY SINCE THIS HAS NEVER BEEN AN
"ISSUE" BEFORE WITH previous Windows OS?

This should not even have to be discussed, MS only needs to give desktop users the OPTION to use desktop as the default UI on every boot.

 

[mdmd]

Ok. Why be diverted? It depends on how you define "diverted"
If you say you will never use the metro,
... that is impossible for 8 users.
The metro is the shell.
You could try a shell replacement.
An option to not use the metro is like an option to not use Windows 8.
which many want, right ...

(the desktop is an app not a user interface UI)

There are some downloadable shell replacements available.

 

[SIW2]

(the desktop is an app not a user interface UI)

Do you care to explain what you mean by that.

The metro is the shell.

I think you will find explorer.exe has something to do with it.

 

[mdmd]

sorry, the metro is written into the explorer.exe code.
It has been compiled as the UI and cannot be separated.
The metro is not an application that can be disabled.

A good hacker can write a script to go around the start screen at boot time,
but it cannot be disabled.

You can go to task manager and select Windows Explorer (explorer.exe)
select end task,
this turns the Windows shell off.

CTRL+ALT+DEL or run task manager.
To restart, run a new task > enter > explorer.exe
Windows shell turns on.


In 8, the desktop has been separated (in the code) as an app and not part of the UI.
The only way to eliminate the metro, is to eliminate explorer.exe

In windows 7, the desktop is still an app, but is part of the explorer.exe code.
When using a shell replacement, explorer.exe is disabled.

 

[Night Hawk]

Okay, I just HAD to register, so much misinformation in a single post.

For a start a lot gamers won't be happy to find out that their older DX9 titles that require DX 9 elements won't run on 8! At least with 7 despite DX 11 you could still install 9 along with it and the old stuff will run. Then of course 8 being a newer not so compatible as the 7 from Vista move is not able to run many other things that run on 7 without some newer version coming out.

The change from XP to Vista was also a leap while Vista and 7 stayed much closer compatibility wise. There are a number of things if you look close enough that run on Vista and generally will work on 7 but not 8! But this is also the expected outlook when going from any version to one newer.

As far as Tablet PC no one would expect any optical there or with a netbook. Plus Tablet PC has always been a totally "separate" edition from what goes on any laptop or desktop to begin with. Why would anyone want Tablet PC gui on a desktop pc when they would expect a newer desktop OS to have a desktop gui to begin with?

As for the Media Center that was one thing added into on the 2005 XP MC edition and simply carried on with Vista and 7. WMP on the other hand has been around since 95! WMP 10 finally saw additional codecs included rather then the need to go and buy separate codecs online. Now MS is eliminating the ability for playback entirely? not just removing codecs!

That's another "why?" to add to the list which will make many wonder why bother?! Most will simply look at 8 and think MS is "off in the clouds somewhere" not paying attention to the desktop user!

Generally whenever MS make a major change in the OS it usually takes a few versions to get things worked out. That was seen with 3.1 to 95. 98SE however was the Legacy winner! Likewise following the leap from XP to Vista 7 topped all! And we now wait for 9? 10? 11? to fill in the void between 7 and...

Did you actually TRY Windows 8? Cause it doesn't seem like it.

DirectX 9. Where did you hear that DX9 (or older) games wouldn't work? Cause mine all work fine. In fact, games like Diablo 1/2 and Starcraft work fine without any work arounds that were needed in Vista/7.

Compatibility, both with software and drivers. Haven't read of any significant issue with any software, save for a bug in Skype. Drivers? If they work on Vista/7, they'll work on 8. My old B/G wireless card works fine with the drivers that came on the CD. Had no issue installing W7 drivers for my older system, either.

Both Nvidia and AMD have been supporting CP and RP with beta drivers and there's very few issues so far, save for one specific game I've heard of (Max Payne 3).


Tablet UI? Eh? Click on the desktop tile and you've got your regular ol' Windows desktop. The start screen takes up the entire screen, yeah, but when you go in your start menu, you can't do anything else ANYWAY.
Do you just sit there with your start menu open while looking at a Youtube video or whatever? I doubt it.
Pin your most used apps on the taskbar and pin the rest on the start screen and that's it.
You're not required to use Metro Apps. It's not the most elegant way of doing things, but it works.

Media Center... Eh, never seen anyone use it, most people just download VLC anyways. And WMP is staying, unless you're talking about Windows RT, which is for ARM based tablets, in which case they have the Music and Video apps to fill the void.

Oh and btw, paying for codecs? Really? Who does that. There's plenty of ways to watch any and every video file imagineable. VLC and MPC-HC being very easy ways to go about it.



And I wouldn't call Windows 8 a major change. The only real difference is the start screen, which works more or less the same way as the start menu, except it's fullscreen and you can have pretty tiles that show random info like new mails, weather, news and stuff.
There's lots of behind the scenes improvements, but they're hardly a major change, either. At least IMO.

I deal with a range of game titles still able to run old Legacy compatible titles on the 64bit 7 without issue. Fortunatel one that saw DX 7 as option only is able to run on 8 while others simply will not. OpenGL errors and the need for pre-DX10 are a result of being hard coded. Even the ATI Catalysts beyond the 10.4 were nothing but headaches for many on much newer titles as well as the old stuff.

As far as not trying 8? I can see you are new here! The only problems as far as installation came first with not being able the DP to install at the time and later the 8 CP simply would not connect online when installed on one version of VM Player which was to see a fix in the next release of the same program! The RP would not install on VM Player however and had to go onto VirtualBox.

As far as video and sound drivers I have the 7 beta drivers for the Creative XtremeGamer model sound card in use on 8. Note "beta drivers for 7" in use on 8. That wasn't the type of compatibility issues being run into with various 3rd party programs like UltraMon still not having an 8 compatible newer release out while DisplayFusion does.

I'm still not finished loading up the RP install with other programs to see what other problems appear being 8 like any other version is new at this time. And as far as a major change there is a difference when comparing how close Vista and 7 are on a various things compatibility wise while 7 saw the return of support for Fat and saw a much better backward compatibility with the 32bit 7 for things that wouldn't even install let alone run on Vista.

Hi there
not sure who you are referring to here but Nighthawks's posts are usually pretty accurate and mine -- hopefully too.

Running a dsktop OS where you NEED to do "Office" like applications is a TOTALLY different ballgame to the casual user just wanting to surf the net / play around witn facebook etc.


Cheers
jimbo

That sums it up nicely! The changes seen with 8 simply won't be agreeable with many regardless of how you learn how to move around. The gap is actually larger then seen when going from 3.1 to 95 for two reasons there.
1)3.1 - Manual start up from dos prompt to see Windows load 95 - automatic start up first seen with the Windows OS
2)3.1 -desktop shortcuts or typing full address in Run command line to see programs start 95 - first to see Programs menu as well as desktop shortcuts. You could still type in the executable at the Run command line as with any newer version to start an exe file.

With 8 the comparison besides the swap from Start>Programs to Start screen is also how to find various other things like system options, personalization, app settings, etc. Hidden settings bar appears on right side only if cursor hits the right spot. Right click menu for system options hidden under Start screen popup.

The core elements however have seen the expected gradual improvements such as faster boot time and shutdown is faster due to the lower WaitToKillServices reg value lowered from XP/Vista -20000=20sec. , 7 -12000=12sec. 8 -5000=5sec. You can speed up the shutdown time with any of these four versions by simply lowering the reg value down to 1000 here 800 some lower it further while the 1000 is best to allow programs to close properly.

Security improved! especially with the MS Security Essentials subbing for the old Windows Defender which did... not much of anything! With the RP just out most wouldn't have much loaded onto 8 at this time which would obviously start off seemingly more peppy then a 7 install you have been running for some time loaded up and a registry possibly cluttered up. Any clean install of 7 alone would seem to be a faster OS over the standing used every day install.

The next step here will be boosting the ram in the 8 VM upto 6 to 8gb there as well as looking at other things before touching the second drive's physical install as far as tweaking, disablilng something?, and a few other things to boot.

 

[Vince53]

And this, NightHawk, explains why I am going to keep Windows 7 on one partition and Windows 8 on another. Some of my old games won't play on Windows 8. Some of them actually play better on Windows 8. And some require the 32-bit XP I have on a third partition.

 

[Night Hawk]

Some of those old titles written for XP wouldn't even install on the 32bit Vista but would on the 32bit 7. Vista was the next after XP and yet wouldn't? The same pricinple applies to each new version and why things like the compatibility troubleshooter was introduced with 7.

The dos emulator for the old dos, 9X game Duke3D only saw the first game map run before crash central on the 64bit 7! I wasn't going to revert backwards to the 32bit for one game however! Likewise I was still surprized at seeing several other Legacy titles even able to run on any 64bit Windows since there was no 64bit edition of anything when they were developed.

Surprizingly even with the latest Catalyst drivers on 8 one old title seems to be relentless however not that plays any better or worse on 8. That would be Return to CastleWolfenstein. DosBox handles Wolf3D or Duke Nukem, Nukem 2 8bit dos versions of those however. And Steam 3rd party HL2 game mods crash on everything! "Steam Client.dll, Steam Client.dll, crash crash crash"

Too bad I couldn't run those old titles on the VBox 98SE VM I had on for a bit. It would have been something to see some of those old titles running again. Oh well you simply have to accept and move on from the Legacy days I guess!
(Meanwhile I will remain stuborn to keep 7 running... foreverrrrrrrr... )

 

[whest]

The thing I found with old games was eg unrealtournament 3 with an ati 5850, and intel duo 6850 @ 3.8ghz (OC from 3.0ghz) -(monitoring with msi afterburner) - was ati damn drivers were restricting the gpu clock from running at full speed, so much so it was running about 50% compared to 100% ie wxp was running them smoothly, but w7 was choking from lack of gpu power. So I guess ATI were the villians for not fixing this with their drivers.

 

[Night Hawk]

Once the 10.5 Cat. was seen all "H" broke out with people reporting all kids of problems as far as their games newer as well as older titles! The old games ran into the 50 extensions hard code problems while the newer see 75 extensions. Try and talk to someone at AMD/ATI about this and get the door slammed in your face!

Lately on 8 I simply right clicked while in the DM to update to the latest drivers without uninstalling the 10.4 Cat. to find they may finally cleared that problem up after a good number of newer Cat. versions were seen. That was one thing I was planning to test here on both 7 and 8 alike.

The other problem with old titles however is the incompatibilty many will simply see with the new Windows. That's part of life! You see this with all types of softwares where companies have to come up with a newer version that will work once the next Windows version which ever it is comes out. Vista and 8 definitely fall into this catagory.

 

[killericarus]

Its soo funny here at this forum I've been hanging around for a week or so and just for thos that really have no clue as to what is going on @ microsoft have none of you ever used linux? Its almost an exact copy with eye candy and apps and does no one remember longhorn? Where do you think all the faild system changes were going guess what there here in full effect in 8 and if you think it will fail or flop it is just like when windows was worthless then months latter it was worth millions and why? Because they changed. What do you think was the real intention of active desktop? It was always like metro a dock bar that is native to linux and more than one desktop oh my again a linux first. Areo glass? Please that was in linux first too I sugest you fellows download a copy of ubuntu or saybayon linux and see how exact they are before you worrry your litte heads off this has been something in the works for years and was all implemented in linux first don't belive me google compiz and beryl its all graphix and oh wow did I mention that linux has a destop cube giving you 6 desktops that are more fluid in movement than the metro desktop and the reason for loging in with a live id is so you can't pirate windows and it will also eliminate 75 percent of viruses like in linux the only people who get viruses are those who use there linux box rooted I can tell most of the people here at this forum are just whiny and are not interested in hacking 8 for what its worth !!!!!!!!

 

[SIW2]

Hacking Win8 is what many are going to do.

months latter it was worth millions and why? Because they changed

No, it is not simply because they changed - it is because they made the right changes.

 

[Coke Robot]

Its soo funny here at this forum I've been hanging around for a week or so and just for thos that really have no clue as to what is going on @ microsoft have none of you ever used linux? Its almost an exact copy with eye candy and apps and does no one remember longhorn? Where do you think all the faild system changes were going guess what there here in full effect in 8 and if you think it will fail or flop it is just like when windows was worthless then months latter it was worth millions and why? Because they changed. What do you think was the real intention of active desktop? It was always like metro a dock bar that is native to linux and more than one desktop oh my again a linux first. Areo glass? Please that was in linux first too I sugest you fellows download a copy of ubuntu or saybayon linux and see how exact they are before you worrry your litte heads off this has been something in the works for years and was all implemented in linux first don't belive me google compiz and beryl its all graphix and oh wow did I mention that linux has a destop cube giving you 6 desktops that are more fluid in movement than the metro desktop and the reason for loging in with a live id is so you can't pirate windows and it will also eliminate 75 percent of viruses like in linux the only people who get viruses are those who use there linux box rooted I can tell most of the people here at this forum are just whiny and are not interested in hacking 8 for what its worth !!!!!!!!

I remember Longhorn....never forget. It took a WHOLE decade before its features and design were implemented.

I agree with some of what you say, some people need to take Windows 8 and make it what they want it to, just like they would with 7, or Linux in your case. I think there is that Desktop cube for Windows with an AMD Catalyst driver that that kind of does that.

 

[Coke Robot]

Okay, I just HAD to register, so much misinformation in a single post.

For a start a lot gamers won't be happy to find out that their older DX9 titles that require DX 9 elements won't run on 8! At least with 7 despite DX 11 you could still install 9 along with it and the old stuff will run. Then of course 8 being a newer not so compatible as the 7 from Vista move is not able to run many other things that run on 7 without some newer version coming out.

The change from XP to Vista was also a leap while Vista and 7 stayed much closer compatibility wise. There are a number of things if you look close enough that run on Vista and generally will work on 7 but not 8! But this is also the expected outlook when going from any version to one newer.

As far as Tablet PC no one would expect any optical there or with a netbook. Plus Tablet PC has always been a totally "separate" edition from what goes on any laptop or desktop to begin with. Why would anyone want Tablet PC gui on a desktop pc when they would expect a newer desktop OS to have a desktop gui to begin with?

As for the Media Center that was one thing added into on the 2005 XP MC edition and simply carried on with Vista and 7. WMP on the other hand has been around since 95! WMP 10 finally saw additional codecs included rather then the need to go and buy separate codecs online. Now MS is eliminating the ability for playback entirely? not just removing codecs!

That's another "why?" to add to the list which will make many wonder why bother?! Most will simply look at 8 and think MS is "off in the clouds somewhere" not paying attention to the desktop user!

Generally whenever MS make a major change in the OS it usually takes a few versions to get things worked out. That was seen with 3.1 to 95. 98SE however was the Legacy winner! Likewise following the leap from XP to Vista 7 topped all! And we now wait for 9? 10? 11? to fill in the void between 7 and...

Did you actually TRY Windows 8? Cause it doesn't seem like it.

DirectX 9. Where did you hear that DX9 (or older) games wouldn't work? Cause mine all work fine. In fact, games like Diablo 1/2 and Starcraft work fine without any work arounds that were needed in Vista/7.

Compatibility, both with software and drivers. Haven't read of any significant issue with any software, save for a bug in Skype. Drivers? If they work on Vista/7, they'll work on 8. My old B/G wireless card works fine with the drivers that came on the CD. Had no issue installing W7 drivers for my older system, either.

Both Nvidia and AMD have been supporting CP and RP with beta drivers and there's very few issues so far, save for one specific game I've heard of (Max Payne 3).


Tablet UI? Eh? Click on the desktop tile and you've got your regular ol' Windows desktop. The start screen takes up the entire screen, yeah, but when you go in your start menu, you can't do anything else ANYWAY.
Do you just sit there with your start menu open while looking at a Youtube video or whatever? I doubt it.
Pin your most used apps on the taskbar and pin the rest on the start screen and that's it.
You're not required to use Metro Apps. It's not the most elegant way of doing things, but it works.

Media Center... Eh, never seen anyone use it, most people just download VLC anyways. And WMP is staying, unless you're talking about Windows RT, which is for ARM based tablets, in which case they have the Music and Video apps to fill the void.

Oh and btw, paying for codecs? Really? Who does that. There's plenty of ways to watch any and every video file imagineable. VLC and MPC-HC being very easy ways to go about it.



And I wouldn't call Windows 8 a major change. The only real difference is the start screen, which works more or less the same way as the start menu, except it's fullscreen and you can have pretty tiles that show random info like new mails, weather, news and stuff.
There's lots of behind the scenes improvements, but they're hardly a major change, either. At least IMO.

I agree, I got a couple of DX9 games installed that work actually better in 8 than they did in 7. Before, I had to use Windows 7 32 bit to get them to work even under compatibility settings; in 8, they just worked even WITHOUT installing and using in compatibility mode. The issue I'm having is with Halo 2, a DX10 game. I get it to install flawlessly (which never worked in 7 unless in 32 bit mode and not 64 bit) but I come across the Xbox Live issue. I think I had to install something before hand.

As for compatibility with devices, WOW, 8 beats out 7 for sure! I had two wireless adapters in 7 that needed the manufacturer driver to even work, in 8, they worked within three seconds. For laptops and other devices, webcam drivers install and work great, sound works fine as usual, SD card readers work and all. That's impressive considering the Release Preview install files are actually smaller than the Consumer Preview. I downloaded the Release Preview and it was a couple of gigs and I though I accidently downloaded the smaller 32 bit copy, but it was actually the 64 bit version.

And yes, in no realistic set up does one watch what's going on within multiple windows while trying to navigate the start menu. That's a weak argument. Your focus is finding an item in the menu, not what's going on with a bunch of windows.

When 8 is at RTM stage, the other half, the Desktop, will be changed to fit the metro design. I found a concept mockup of Windows Explorer that was just FANTASTICLY metro design: clean, simple, flat, but neatly designed. I hope that happens with the Desktop. I also hope Control Panel gets redone to marry up with PC Setting's design layout.

 

[crawfish]

I remember Longhorn....never forget. It took a WHOLE decade before its features and design were implemented.

Are you from the future? Because through June 17, 2012, features like WinFS that made Longhorn really different remain on the scrap heap of history.

 

[Night Hawk]

Undoubtedly! The code name for Vista was Long Horn which didn't take up any 10yrs. or longer! Vista has only been out since 2007 or 5yrs.! Development for the 2004 release was delayed for 3yrs. due to various problems that kept coming up making it the longest gap between each new version of Windows. Not even a decade has passed.

As far as comparing Linux to Windows the one thing to remember there is that every so few months you see a new "flavor of the month" with most distros. Ubuntu is one the fastest changeover to next distros seen. As soon as you get the ".04" release on the ".10" next release is out!

Developments seen there are user submitted entries for adding or modifying things. If someone comes up with something new and interesting that is well written the particular distro it was intended for will adopt it at times!

The comparison to MS however is that MS is a profit driven corporation not a free OS society of "OS Geeks" as they get labeled. As far as how well games run on 8 when compared to 7 I didn't actually find any noticable difference when running the same titles old and a lot newer in the same conditions.

What most forget when saying 8 is faster is mainly due to just seeing the RP come out and working with a fresh system reg on a clean install of Windows compared to their startup laced 7 install that's been on for some time! Any alleged DX9 games you ran apparently did not require DX 9 to be present. For older titles now some 11yrs. or older some managed while others... "bit the dust"! "Program incompatible with this version of Windows" sums that up correctly!

 

[lehnerus2000]

I don't think that is correct

... and the reason for loging in with a live id is so you can't pirate windows ...

Not yet.
It's to get people used to the idea.
When "Cloud" Windows appears you'll be correct.

... and it will also eliminate 75 percent of viruses like in linux the only people who get viruses are those who use there linux box rooted ...

I doubt that it will have any effect on malware.

It won't stop Worms from exploiting security flaws.

It won't prevent you:

• Installing an virus-ridden file (say via USB) or Trojan.
• Answering a Phishing email.

Those things can also happen in Linux.

 

[Coke Robot]

I remember Longhorn....never forget. It took a WHOLE decade before its features and design were implemented.

Are you from the future? Because through June 17, 2012, features like WinFS that made Longhorn really different remain on the scrap heap of history.

Well of course WinFS never made it. But I'm talking about how a lot of features and design elements from Longhorn either made it as it is in vista or 7 or 8 or they made it as a morphed version; like WinFS. In Server 2012, it has the new ReFS and Microsoft has hinted that it will eventually come to the client OS of Windows 8. Back in Longhorn, when you opened your Pictures Library (a feature that ended up in 7) and hovered over a picture, it would expand to be a bit larger. In Windows 8 within a metro file picker, you hover over a picture and it expands a bit larger and it also shows some details about it.

A good analogy would be like Longhorn being a cool airplane that crashed and its parts got scattered across the years....

 

[Coke Robot]

... and the reason for loging in with a live id is so you can't pirate windows ...

Not yet.
It's to get people used to the idea.
When "Cloud" Windows appears you'll be correct.

... and it will also eliminate 75 percent of viruses like in linux the only people who get viruses are those who use there linux box rooted ...

I doubt that it will have any effect on malware.

It won't stop Worms from exploiting security flaws.

It won't prevent you:

• Installing an virus-ridden file (say via USB) or Trojan.
• Answering a Phishing email.

Those things can also happen in Linux.

The cloud features are pretty cool in 8. I can go to another PC running 8 and setup a new user account and use my Microsoft account and my settings, email, calendars, social networks and such transfer over without setting it up in each individual app or having to change settings in the Desktop.

I bet it will take a LONG time until Windows Cloud. A vast majority of the US doesn't have FIoS internet service with a gigabit of speed. It would be a major PITA to have to stream an operating system through a DSL connection.

 

[lehnerus2000]

Sure, but ...

The cloud features are pretty cool in 8. I can go to another PC running 8 and setup a new user account and use my Microsoft account and my settings, email, calendars, social networks and such transfer over without setting it up in each individual app or having to change settings in the Desktop.

Those features could be useful for some people (i.e. people who use multiple W8-based devices).

However it also means that your info can be easily scrutinised and then sold to advertisers.
It could also be used by cyber-criminals to gather info about your system.

I bet it will take a LONG time until Windows Cloud. A vast majority of the US doesn't have FIoS internet service with a gigabit of speed. It would be a major PITA to have to stream an operating system through a DSL connection.

Sure.
It wouldn't be Microsoft's problem though, it would be yours.

I'm sure terms, like "Luddite" and "Cheapskate", would be bandied about on forums.

 

[killericarus]

Now finally some people that see win 8 for what it is almost ten years ago I frequented the forums of iexbeta when one in my lvl would have 4 or five windows pcs an xp,longhorn,server 03,98 on a live cd with a persistance file and my favorite windows freestyle that one day I made the connection myself by pure coincedence as I was trying to create an open session rewritable cd of xp much how linux has always had a live cd but back to the here and now win 8 has a boatload of hidden gems no the famous file system didn't make the cut because it was adapted. To take on journal file system a hybred that is incomplete because of meta stream data that ruins the performance and the tecnique was used in linux to allow one high performance file system communicate with all others and windows failed at that. Now comes security issues that have plagued since the days of 95 and windows millenium with service packs and such so they take power shell a dos hybrid and include explorer commands in it so one can run the pc without utilities like vnc and actually use virtualization to its proper lvl now I've only been playing with this release for a few weeks but it is the "heir appearent" without a doubt lol look at distros like pclos that strive for "works out of the box" well that is been windows forever now comes the dawn of cloud and virtualization box no more people that box can be on the other side of the world now and take the metro desktop does anyone remember the green pc sold at walmart it was a linux setup that had all apps just like win 8 and logon was very similar with respect to it controlled you more than you controlled it that said win 8 is a gem in itself waiting for people to tear it apart and try to keep microsoft from turning into another monopoly with everything having to go thru them first